Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

For the love of English 3 speeds...

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 08-04-15, 12:22 PM
  #7876  
Senior Member
 
Gasbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 191

Bikes: 1968 DL-1 / 1963 Rudge Sport / 1955 Raleigh Superbe / 1951 CWS / 1948 CWS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by BigChief
I never noticed this before, but do you suppose it was deliberate on Raleigh's part to rout the brake cables differently than the home market for bikes exported to America? Didn't do a lot of research, but the English catalogs I see on line all show right hand to front cable routing and the American catalogs show right hand to rear. That would explain the the right hand to front brakes on my DL-1. Right hand to front was the standard and they just didn't bother to change the rod linkage for export.
From the U.S. Consumer product Safety Commission: Bicycle Requirements Business Guidance | CPSC.gov
(b) Hand levers have to be on the handlebars and readily usable. The distance between middle of a hand lever and the handlebar may be no wider than 3 ½ inches (3 inches for levers on sidewalk bicycles). Unless a customer specifies otherwise, the hand lever that operates the rear brake must be on the right handlebar. The lever that operates the front brake must be on the left handlebar. A lever that operates both brakes may be on either handlebar. Please note that, if a bicycle has hand lever extensions, all tests are conducted with the extensions in place.

From the National Cycling Charity (British regulations): Safety Regulations | CTC
One might suppose that the remaining provisions of this regulation were comparatively trivial, and so they are. Every new bicycle has to come with:
  1. Any hand-operated brakes arranged left-hand rear, right-hand front
Gasbag is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 01:04 PM
  #7877  
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,475

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7330 Post(s)
Liked 2,420 Times in 1,415 Posts
The Italians route their brake cables the same way as the British. The French do it the same way as the Americans. Go figure. To my mind, it doesn't make much difference if the rider is conscious of how they are routed and what it means. I've been doing it the American way all my life and don't want to switch, but given that most people are right handed, I think the British way makes a little more sense. I say that because it is reflexive to use your dominant hand more, and on dry surfaces, the front brake is the more useful one. Half the people I survey believe it's better to rely on the rear brake primarily, and they are wrong.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 01:14 PM
  #7878  
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,931
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1112 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by noglider
The Italians route their brake cables the same way as the British.
For the traditional Cyclo Cross NDS dismount/carry/run/remount technique the right brake lever is Front.

-Bandera
Bandera is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 01:26 PM
  #7879  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 225
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
It's definitely RH=Front, LH=Rear in Britain. Or least, it has been on any bike I've been on.
Some people I know have warned me about hiring a bike on the Continent. They have their brakes the other way round. My Dad hired a mountain bike in Central France a few years back, and found this out. You get used to it eventually..

I didn't know they were arranged like that in the States as well.?
Fidbloke is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 01:52 PM
  #7880  
Senior Member
 
Velocivixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 4,513
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 400 Post(s)
Liked 37 Times in 26 Posts
I sometimes route my brake cables based on what looks better. If a side pull brake has cable entering on the drive side, I may use the right brake lever for the front, for example. For me it doesn't matter.
Velocivixen is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 02:41 PM
  #7881  
Senior Member
 
Salubrious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 1,597

Bikes: Too many 3-speeds, Jones Plus LWB

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 265 Times in 119 Posts
I tend to put the front brake on the right, since that is the way it is on my motorbikes.
Salubrious is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 05:02 PM
  #7882  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 1,883
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 263 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Swapping the brake levers from the "usual" locations leads to YouTube and "funniest home" videos. Seen it a couple of times.
Slash5 is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 05:34 PM
  #7883  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 106

Bikes: 1975 Raleigh Superbe, Abeni Triatlon, 1992 GT Timberline custom "neo-klunker", 1988 Miyata Valley Runner Townie

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked 34 Times in 18 Posts
Originally Posted by Gasbag
From the U.S. Consumer product Safety Commission: Bicycle Requirements Business Guidance | CPSC.gov
(b) Hand levers have to be on the handlebars and readily usable. The distance between middle of a hand lever and the handlebar may be no wider than 3 ½ inches (3 inches for levers on sidewalk bicycles). Unless a customer specifies otherwise, the hand lever that operates the rear brake must be on the right handlebar. The lever that operates the front brake must be on the left handlebar. A lever that operates both brakes may be on either handlebar. Please note that, if a bicycle has hand lever extensions, all tests are conducted with the extensions in place.
I wonder why the decision was made to have the front brake operated by the left hand. Early on, motorcycles eventually came to use the right hand to operate the front brake. In fact, US standards forced British motorcycle manufacturers to convert the rear brake pedal from the left to the right in the 70's so both brakes were operated on the same side. This also moved the gear change to the left and made for some gangly looking linkages and serious costs.

I can swap easily between both on my modern motorcycles and old British bikes, however.

I think the British way makes a little more sense. I say that because it is reflexive to use your dominant hand more, and on dry surfaces, the front brake is the more useful one
I've never given the bicycle levers a thought as to what is right and wrong, and took no notice of the "national" difference until recently. If the front brake lever is on the left though, I usually switch it over to the right bar to stay in line with my motorcycles and for the reasons mentioned by Noglider.
Commando is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 06:26 PM
  #7884  
Senior Member
 
BigChief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,240
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1299 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 103 Times in 85 Posts
Well, this explains why the brake levers are reversed from what I'm used to on my old DL-1. This is a great forum, learning new things all the time.
I don't know why I should be surprised that some bureaucracy is demanding a particular cable routing on bicycles, but I am. I suppose I'm hopelessly old fashioned.
BigChief is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 08:26 PM
  #7885  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: hopewell lct NY
Posts: 192

Bikes: 1969 schwinn sting ray 3 speed stick ...1974 raleigh sports

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
my 69 schwinn stingray is right rear ..they all should be
michaelz28 is offline  
Old 08-04-15, 09:31 PM
  #7886  
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
Thread Starter
 
Sixty Fiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: YEG
Posts: 27,267

Bikes: See my sig...

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 96 Posts
I run all my bikes right front / moto as do my children... it may have started with my Rudge which had this set up and since I used to ride motorcycles this was pretty natural for me.

I always have to warn people if they take my bikes for a spin... especially on those bikes that have really powerful brakes.
Sixty Fiver is offline  
Old 08-06-15, 11:27 AM
  #7887  
Senior Member
 
Narhay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,696
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 956 Post(s)
Liked 568 Times in 314 Posts
I've been looking at a number of wheels on the Raleigh superbes I have kicking around the house. I've noticed that their 2, 3 and 4 cross lacing patterns are over over over instead of over over under. Anyone else notice this with their wheels? I've relaced them with aluminum rims and corrected it but it seems like they were built that way.
Narhay is offline  
Old 08-06-15, 11:42 AM
  #7888  
Bikes are okay, I guess.
 
thumpism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 6,938

Bikes: Waterford Paramount Touring, Giant CFM-2, Raleigh Sports 3-speeds in M23 & L23, Schwinn Cimarron oddball build, Marin Palisades Trail dropbar conversion, Nishiki Cresta GT

Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2647 Post(s)
Liked 2,446 Times in 1,557 Posts
Originally Posted by Narhay
...cross lacing patterns are over over over instead of over over under. Anyone else notice this with their wheels? it seems like they were built that way.
My three Sportses are like that and most others I've seen as well. Might have been cheaper to produce that way.

I ride both bikes and motorcycles and keep the brakes left-front on the bicycles with no ill effect.
thumpism is offline  
Old 08-06-15, 02:39 PM
  #7889  
Senior Member
 
markk900's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,648
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Liked 634 Times in 336 Posts
I'm with @thumpism: don't have any problem making the switch to whatever side the brakes are on, though I will cop to trying too downshift my Ducati single with the rear brake once....
markk900 is offline  
Old 08-07-15, 08:26 AM
  #7890  
Senior Member
 
BigChief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,240
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1299 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 103 Times in 85 Posts
A while ago, I bought a 55 Rudge Sports in terrible condition so I could have fun doing a total restoration and maybe some customization without wrecking a bike that deserved preservation. It has a 70s SA trigger with only a small broken bit of the original plastic cover under the screw, so I've been looking for an earlier trigger to keep the 1950s feel. I knew a fellow who had a 3 or 4 speed 50s window trigger in very good condition for sale, but I thought somebody polished off the chrome plating from the faceplate, leaving it plain brass, so I didn't buy it. Later I found the same trigger on a salvage bike that had been left outside for years and restored it as best as I could. It was rusty and pitted, but the chromed faceplate was in very good condition. Then I figured that I should buy the clean trigger and swap the faceplates so I could have a really good one for my Rudge and put the ruined plate on the pitted case and have a useable but messed up 50s trigger for a future project. So, I stopped by and bought the trigger with the ruined faceplate. On closer inspection with an eye loupe, I was surprised to see the brass trigger had traces of brass plating on the band and not a trace of chrome. It was now almost all bare steel. Also, not a trace of chrome anywhere on the faceplate. Not even in the corners of the embossed logo. I now believe this trigger was originally made with an all brass finish even though I have never seen this in my experience or research of old English bikes.
Today, I see this eBay listing. Now I'm totally convinced SA offered these triggers in a decorative brass finish. So, just another bit of SA minutiae for us 3 speed enthusiasts.
Vintage Sturmey Archer 3 Speed Trigger 1 Raleigh BSA Rudge Hercules | eBay
BigChief is offline  
Old 08-07-15, 09:56 AM
  #7891  
Senior Member
 
Gasbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 191

Bikes: 1968 DL-1 / 1963 Rudge Sport / 1955 Raleigh Superbe / 1951 CWS / 1948 CWS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
The only difference between these two triggers is the one on the left was ultrasonically cleaned in an oxalic acid bath. Antiquing on the cheap!

Attached Images
File Type: jpg
sturmtrig.jpg (99.8 KB, 132 views)
Gasbag is offline  
Old 08-07-15, 01:12 PM
  #7892  
Senior Member
 
BigChief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,240
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1299 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 103 Times in 85 Posts
I don't believe they use brass in the chrome plating process. I could be wrong, I believe they use nickel. There's no doubt that the mounting band and rivet heads of this shifter have traces of brass plating and not a hint of chrome. The one I restored was out in the weather for years and the band retains almost all of it's chrome plating. Although I did use Evapo-rust and not oxalic acid on my restoration. That didn't disturb the remaining chrome at all. Not sure if oxalic acid dissolves chrome and leaves traces of brass colored plating. But why soak a perfectly clean, unrusted shifter in oxalic acid?
I'm still thinking it was made with a decorative brass finish. This is my Evapo-rust soaked trigger.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
GC2_restored.jpg (90.0 KB, 97 views)
BigChief is offline  
Old 08-07-15, 04:11 PM
  #7893  
Senior Member
 
dweenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 3,799

Bikes: Lots of English 3-speeds, a couple of old road bikes, 3 mountain bikes, 1 hybrid, and a couple of mash-ups

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 887 Post(s)
Liked 335 Times in 225 Posts
Originally Posted by Gasbag
The only difference between these two triggers is the one on the left was ultrasonically cleaned in an oxalic acid bath. Antiquing on the cheap!

The trigger on the left looks horrible. Are you saying that OA did that? That has not been my experience with OA, but I would like to know details.
dweenk is offline  
Old 08-07-15, 04:23 PM
  #7894  
Senior Member
 
Gasbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 191

Bikes: 1968 DL-1 / 1963 Rudge Sport / 1955 Raleigh Superbe / 1951 CWS / 1948 CWS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
This one has me stumped too. I would expect copper under chrome. I was cleaning a batch of rusty small parts and did the trigger because it was pretty dirty and had surface rust. I was surprised that it came out brass and it didn't hurt the paint either. None of the other chrome was effected other than the rust was gone. It matches the tarnished brass bell on my DL1 so that is where it is going. The plastic trigger never appealed to me anyway.
Gasbag is offline  
Old 08-07-15, 07:56 PM
  #7895  
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,772

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3580 Post(s)
Liked 3,389 Times in 1,927 Posts
Originally Posted by BigChief
I'm still thinking it was made with a decorative brass finish.
On the specimen I have here, it appears there is a brass face plate overlying the rest of the mechanism:

JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 08-07-15, 08:54 PM
  #7896  
Senior Member
 
BigChief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,240
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1299 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 103 Times in 85 Posts
Another one! Well, If these came from the factory this way or not, one thing I can say for certain is...If you're planning on de-rusting an old SA shifter, use Evaporust. I know from experience that it won't remove the chrome from the embossed brass faceplate.
BigChief is offline  
Old 08-07-15, 11:44 PM
  #7897  
Senior Member
 
jamesj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 922

Bikes: 2015 Specialized AWOL, 2006 Paul Frank Cruiser, 1987 Specialized Street Stomper, 1980 Trek 412, 1979 Raleigh Sport,

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times in 25 Posts
started taking the superbe apart and was wondering if the dynohub worked. I was able to get this from it. the front bulb is burned out. Question how does one clean out the bearing on this hub?

https://video-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xaf1/v/t42.1790-2/11830365_10207467239628468_1626547469_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjY4NywicmxhIjo1MTIsInZlbmNvZGVfdGFnIjoicmVzXzQyNl9jcmZfMjNfbWFpbl8zLjBfc2QifQ%3D%3D&rl=687&vabr=382&oh=53e9f1d110165a705fb3e0207a4505e9&oe=55C5BE8F
jamesj is offline  
Old 08-08-15, 05:29 AM
  #7898  
Senior Member
 
Velocivixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 4,513
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 400 Post(s)
Liked 37 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by jamesj
started taking the superbe apart and was wondering if the dynohub worked. I was able to get this from it. the front bulb is burned out. Question how does one clean out the bearing on this hub?

https://video-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xaf1/v/t42.1790-2/11830365_10207467239628468_1626547469_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjY4NywicmxhIjo1MTIsInZlbmNvZGVfdGFnIjoicmVzXzQyNl9jcmZfMjNfbWFpbl8zLjBfc2QifQ%3D%3D&rl=687&vabr=382&oh=53e9f1d110165a705fb3e0207a4505e9&oe=55C5BE8F

I used the the links on the Sturmey Archer Heritage site. There are instructions on how to disassemble & reassemble their Dyno hubs. Here's a PDF manual for servicing all their hubs up to 1960.

Sturmey-Archer Heritage :: History
Velocivixen is offline  
Old 08-08-15, 06:44 AM
  #7899  
Senior Member
 
Gasbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 191

Bikes: 1968 DL-1 / 1963 Rudge Sport / 1955 Raleigh Superbe / 1951 CWS / 1948 CWS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by BigChief
Another one! Well, If these came from the factory this way or not, one thing I can say for certain is...If you're planning on de-rusting an old SA shifter, use Evaporust. I know from experience that it won't remove the chrome from the embossed brass faceplate.
I hit the de-chromed shifter with metal polish and it is indeed brass, actually looks pretty nice now.

My theory. Chrome over brass instead of copper made for less than ideal adhesion. The faceplate has a very thin layer of chrome (it possibly could be a plating other than chrome, though I wouldn't know what). Being a manly man and following the "if a little is good, more is better" way of thinking, I had a pretty strong oxalic acid mix in the tank. The ultrasonic tank that I have is an L&R professional model and cleans very aggressively. All combined for removing the plating.

Or, the mischievous troll that lives under my work bench and delights in hiding my drill chuck key has a new trick up his sleeve.
Gasbag is offline  
Old 08-08-15, 06:56 AM
  #7900  
Senior Member
 
Gasbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 191

Bikes: 1968 DL-1 / 1963 Rudge Sport / 1955 Raleigh Superbe / 1951 CWS / 1948 CWS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
On the specimen I have here, it appears there is a brass face plate overlying the rest of the mechanism:

That sir, is an odd duck. Second style spring, making it post 1948. Pat GB rather than Pat No. making it post 1950. 3 or 4 speed making it pre 1953.

The embossed stamping is what really makes it stand out from the crowd.

That is a handsome trigger.
Gasbag is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.