Disappointing Cyclart experience
05-18-10 | 08:03 PM
#51
Veni, Vidi, Bici
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,116
Likes: 11
Bikes: Colnagos (2005 Brera Art, 2007 President LdV, 2007 CF6)
I agree that the logo is unsightly, but that's not the only place they can put it. You can ask that they put it -- and they do insist on putting it somewhere if they repaint (not just touch up) the bike -- on the steering column. I for one ♥ CyclArt's work. They've repainted or touched up 6 of my bikes so far. It's pricey, but I have never been disappointed with the quality of their work.
05-18-10 | 08:47 PM
#52
feros ferio
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 22,413
Likes: 1,878
From: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
My personal experience-based observations: 1) Jim and Susan are good, honest, hard-working folks. I have taken a few bike rides with them and have visited their shop several times, and Capo #1 bears a gorgeous two-tone Cat II CyclArt paint job. Jim probably got himself in trouble on the job in question here by being too eager to please the customer, then realizing that he just could not do it. Yes, communication at both ends could have been a bit better. 2) My sole complaint on my CyclArt paint job is that they chose too modern a type font for my downtube lettering -- in particular, the C should have a curved, rather than parallel/straight, top and bottom. However, the font size and drop shadowing are quite nice.
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
05-18-10 | 10:21 PM
#54
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
I checked the CR list archives, those were probably off list comments, but probably accurate descriptions of the results. I would be bummed if I was in your position too, your cost will be probably be $200 round trip, you will be back where you started and out $200. Not a happy expenditure.
So, why not ask this forum or the CR list for recent recommendations of similar work before spending this money, time and effort?
So, why not ask this forum or the CR list for recent recommendations of similar work before spending this money, time and effort?
05-18-10 | 11:18 PM
#55
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Cyclart responded to this parallel thread on the CR list today.
I will repeat that I think both could have thought through their approach and arrived at a conclusion much cheaper than they have it appears. Here is the cyclart reply:
From: Greg Reiche <shop(AT)cyclart.com>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:28:52 -0400
Subject: [CR] FW: Disappointing Cyclart experience
Dear List,
Jim asked me to send his reply to Paul's post for him.
Greg Reiche
CyclArt
Vista, CA USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cunningham
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 3:29 PM
To: Greg Reiche
Subject: RE: [CR] Disappointing Cyclart experience
As always, there are two sides to each story. Putting aside the issue of
whether Paul's original post is appropriate for the CR list, much less the
best way to resolve his problem, we feel it's in everyone's interest to
share our side, to explain the process and values by which we make our
recommendations.
As with all customers in the preliminary stages of the process, Paul has
sent us no money, and has received our best advice. We have never sent
Paul an estimate for a "cheap powdercoat." The estimate we sent was for a
top tube dent repair and complete refinish with accurate decals. The
frame would look like new. We understand and respect that he wants the
original finish preserved, because it's really not that bad and the
blemishes all speak to his history with the bike, so we offered to clean,
wax and preserve his original finish. What we declined to do was a
half-assed job that would look all wrong. We can do better.
We do many touch-ups or "Partials" at CyclArt. Our objective is to make
the damaged area appear that it was never damaged. If, in our professional
opinion, we can't do a seamless undetectable repair, we won't do it. If
someone just wants to cover the damaged area to protect it, and make it
less conspicuous, we coach them on how to do it themselves.
When I first spoke to Paul about a dent repair and touch-up I asked, as I
always do, if the paint outside the damaged areas was unblemished. We do
not recommend touch-ups on frames with many little blemishes because the
repaired area would be conspicuous in its lack of blemishes, and it is
hard to decide where to stop the repair. A good candidate for a partial
has an almost blemish-free finish with a few areas that need attention. A
poor candidate is a frame with many small blemishes, because the time
involved in matching and blending-in each damaged area often exceeds the
time it takes to do a complete refinish.
When the frame arrived, the top tube dent was as expected, no real problem
there. But we expected a couple of other bad spots and an otherwise
unblemished frame. What we received is a frame with tiny nicks amd
scratches everywhere. There is not a single square inch on the frame or
fork anywhere that is not blemished. Still, all the blemishes are minor,
in our opinion. Since the frame shows its "experience," we saw really no
reason to paint it unless one wants it returned to new condition.
The problem in this case is that Paul asked us to repair the top tube, the
right chainstay, an area under the front derailleur and bottom bracket,
and the front and rear dropout areas. If we did as requested, Paul's
frame would have obvious touch-ups because these are the areas that
typically have more wear, but would be appear new, while the rest of the
frame would show its age. Furthermore, since there are blemishes on every
square centimeter of the fork and stays, we could not find a good place to
stop the touch-up.
When the frame first arrived, we expressed these concerns to Paul, and he
stressed (as he has in his post) the low value of the frame, saying "it
does not have to be perfect." It's not a question of perfection though;
doing what he asks makes the frame look worse than doing nothing at all.
Our advice was that we should clean, wax and preserve his existing finish.
After all, the dent is small and not structural. With all the concern
about the history of the frame, it seems to be part of that history.
Alternatively, we can do a complete and accurate restoration, for less
that Paul expected. We gave him an estimate for the latter. The only
other approach would be to do a seamless touch-up and "Cycltique" of the
touched-up areas so they are not conspicuous, but this is more
time-consuming and expensive than the complete refinish and would not look
much different from what he has now except for the dent repair.
We DO understand passion and history and owner's attachment to a bicycle
frame. That is why we do what we do! We simply declined to do a job
would likely result in dissatisfaction for both our craftspeople and the owner.
Jim Cunningham
CyclArt, Inc.
2590 Pioneer Avenue
Suite A
Vista, CA 92081-8427
760-599-1016
www.CyclArt.com
I will repeat that I think both could have thought through their approach and arrived at a conclusion much cheaper than they have it appears. Here is the cyclart reply:
From: Greg Reiche <shop(AT)cyclart.com>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:28:52 -0400
Subject: [CR] FW: Disappointing Cyclart experience
Dear List,
Jim asked me to send his reply to Paul's post for him.
Greg Reiche
CyclArt
Vista, CA USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cunningham
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 3:29 PM
To: Greg Reiche
Subject: RE: [CR] Disappointing Cyclart experience
As always, there are two sides to each story. Putting aside the issue of
whether Paul's original post is appropriate for the CR list, much less the
best way to resolve his problem, we feel it's in everyone's interest to
share our side, to explain the process and values by which we make our
recommendations.
As with all customers in the preliminary stages of the process, Paul has
sent us no money, and has received our best advice. We have never sent
Paul an estimate for a "cheap powdercoat." The estimate we sent was for a
top tube dent repair and complete refinish with accurate decals. The
frame would look like new. We understand and respect that he wants the
original finish preserved, because it's really not that bad and the
blemishes all speak to his history with the bike, so we offered to clean,
wax and preserve his original finish. What we declined to do was a
half-assed job that would look all wrong. We can do better.
We do many touch-ups or "Partials" at CyclArt. Our objective is to make
the damaged area appear that it was never damaged. If, in our professional
opinion, we can't do a seamless undetectable repair, we won't do it. If
someone just wants to cover the damaged area to protect it, and make it
less conspicuous, we coach them on how to do it themselves.
When I first spoke to Paul about a dent repair and touch-up I asked, as I
always do, if the paint outside the damaged areas was unblemished. We do
not recommend touch-ups on frames with many little blemishes because the
repaired area would be conspicuous in its lack of blemishes, and it is
hard to decide where to stop the repair. A good candidate for a partial
has an almost blemish-free finish with a few areas that need attention. A
poor candidate is a frame with many small blemishes, because the time
involved in matching and blending-in each damaged area often exceeds the
time it takes to do a complete refinish.
When the frame arrived, the top tube dent was as expected, no real problem
there. But we expected a couple of other bad spots and an otherwise
unblemished frame. What we received is a frame with tiny nicks amd
scratches everywhere. There is not a single square inch on the frame or
fork anywhere that is not blemished. Still, all the blemishes are minor,
in our opinion. Since the frame shows its "experience," we saw really no
reason to paint it unless one wants it returned to new condition.
The problem in this case is that Paul asked us to repair the top tube, the
right chainstay, an area under the front derailleur and bottom bracket,
and the front and rear dropout areas. If we did as requested, Paul's
frame would have obvious touch-ups because these are the areas that
typically have more wear, but would be appear new, while the rest of the
frame would show its age. Furthermore, since there are blemishes on every
square centimeter of the fork and stays, we could not find a good place to
stop the touch-up.
When the frame first arrived, we expressed these concerns to Paul, and he
stressed (as he has in his post) the low value of the frame, saying "it
does not have to be perfect." It's not a question of perfection though;
doing what he asks makes the frame look worse than doing nothing at all.
Our advice was that we should clean, wax and preserve his existing finish.
After all, the dent is small and not structural. With all the concern
about the history of the frame, it seems to be part of that history.
Alternatively, we can do a complete and accurate restoration, for less
that Paul expected. We gave him an estimate for the latter. The only
other approach would be to do a seamless touch-up and "Cycltique" of the
touched-up areas so they are not conspicuous, but this is more
time-consuming and expensive than the complete refinish and would not look
much different from what he has now except for the dent repair.
We DO understand passion and history and owner's attachment to a bicycle
frame. That is why we do what we do! We simply declined to do a job
would likely result in dissatisfaction for both our craftspeople and the owner.
Jim Cunningham
CyclArt, Inc.
2590 Pioneer Avenue
Suite A
Vista, CA 92081-8427
760-599-1016
www.CyclArt.com
Paul,
If keeping the original paint is important to you, we'd rather not repair the dent for the reasons stated on our estimate regarding touch up work. If you do not want a refinish, we will return the frame as is. I hope you will change your mind and accept our estimate. Let me know.
Best regards,
Susan Cunningham
760-599-1015
Mon. - Fri. 10am - 6 pm Calif. time
CyclArt - 2590 Pioneer Ave. A - Vista - CA - 92081
Website: www.cyclart.com
Vintage parts store: https://stores.ebay.com/Cyclartist
From: P. Ozzello
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 8:17 AM
To: Susan Cunningham
Subject: Re: FW: Bianchi Estimate from CyclArt, 2nd send
Hello Susan,
Originally, Jim accepted to do a 'partial' restoration so that I could keep some of it's original 'scars' but it appears he has changed his mind. Would it be possible to limit the repair to the dented top tube only and supply me with enough paint to do the touch-ups myself? As I told him originally, I don't want it to be in perfect condition; it's the bike I raced when I was a teenager and I just wanted to make it look respectful again. I know the frame itself is of little value but it was my first 'real' bike and I've had it for over 25 years and even won a few races on it, so it has a lot of sentimental value. Could you send me a quote for a "CycleTique" treatment keeping the original paint and decals ? Another important note is that the shop sticker on the frame has to remain intact (Pierre's Village Cycle). My father bought me the bike there in 1985 and I even worked there a few summers (this bike is all about sentiment :-)
Regards,
Paul
If keeping the original paint is important to you, we'd rather not repair the dent for the reasons stated on our estimate regarding touch up work. If you do not want a refinish, we will return the frame as is. I hope you will change your mind and accept our estimate. Let me know.
Best regards,
Susan Cunningham
760-599-1015
Mon. - Fri. 10am - 6 pm Calif. time
CyclArt - 2590 Pioneer Ave. A - Vista - CA - 92081
Website: www.cyclart.com
Vintage parts store: https://stores.ebay.com/Cyclartist
From: P. Ozzello
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 8:17 AM
To: Susan Cunningham
Subject: Re: FW: Bianchi Estimate from CyclArt, 2nd send
Hello Susan,
Originally, Jim accepted to do a 'partial' restoration so that I could keep some of it's original 'scars' but it appears he has changed his mind. Would it be possible to limit the repair to the dented top tube only and supply me with enough paint to do the touch-ups myself? As I told him originally, I don't want it to be in perfect condition; it's the bike I raced when I was a teenager and I just wanted to make it look respectful again. I know the frame itself is of little value but it was my first 'real' bike and I've had it for over 25 years and even won a few races on it, so it has a lot of sentimental value. Could you send me a quote for a "CycleTique" treatment keeping the original paint and decals ? Another important note is that the shop sticker on the frame has to remain intact (Pierre's Village Cycle). My father bought me the bike there in 1985 and I even worked there a few summers (this bike is all about sentiment :-)
Regards,
Paul
Without having dealt with Cyclart personally, Jim's response seems very reasonable. What doesn't come across is the arrogance and pretentiousness prevalent from our prior discussions. From the feedback I got back from the CR list, most of you that have had experience with Cyclart know what I mean, for the rest of you considering a frame restoration, please do yourself a favor and look elsewhere.
05-18-10 | 11:40 PM
#56
I'm a little confused. Jim seems quite clear and the OP does not. Did you read what he wrote? He said touch up was not possible. Touch up is not putting little dabs on paint on dings and scratches it is refinishing areas of the bike and blending it in. Jim stated that there were nicks on every square inch and that to touch it up would leave a blotchy effect of fresh and old areas. That would look like crap! Where is this confusion coming from? He has stated that a touch-up requires the rest of the bike to be in excellent to flawless condition and the OPs bike isn't, there for any touch-up including "cycleTique" is not possible or even reasonable. I'd turn it down, no question.
__________________
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear
05-18-10 | 11:46 PM
#57
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
I'm a little confused. Jim seems quite clear and the OP does not. Did you read what he wrote? He said touch up was not possible. Touch up is not putting little dabs on paint on dings and scratches it is refinishing areas of the bike and blending it in. Jim stated that there were nicks on every square inch and that to touch it up would leave a blotchy effect of fresh and old areas. That would look like crap! Where is this confusion coming from? He has stated that a touch-up requires the rest of the bike to be in excellent to flawless condition and the OPs bike isn't, there for any touch-up including "cycleTique" is not possible or even reasonable. I'd turn it down, no question.
What part didn't you understand :
The only other approach would be to do a seamless touch-up and "Cycltique" of the
touched-up areas so they are not conspicuous, but this is more
time-consuming and expensive than the complete refinish and would not look
much different from what he has now except for the dent repair.
touched-up areas so they are not conspicuous, but this is more
time-consuming and expensive than the complete refinish and would not look
much different from what he has now except for the dent repair.
05-18-10 | 11:50 PM
#58
www.theheadbadge.com
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 29,025
Likes: 5,537
From: Southern Florida
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
This is becoming a rant that the forum can do without. Keep it civil.
-Kurt
-Kurt
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05-19-10 | 12:16 AM
#59
Seņor Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 18,485
Likes: 1,565
From: Hardy, VA
Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs
I have to concur with Kurt here.
I'm not sure what's been occurring here as of late, but I'd like to remind everyone of a few things. This is not directed at any single individual.
1. Perception is reality for the person who experiences it.
2. When we don't "get" someone else's point of view, it doesn't automatically make them "wrong".
3. C&V has high community standards for civility.
4. The longer a corpse lays out in the open, the more likely it is to spread disease.
My assessment is that the thread is ceasing to be a positive vehicle for discussion. I am closing it - at least for now. If you feel strongly that I'm in error here, please PM me, lotek, cuda2k, or one of the other C&V moderators, or BF administrators.
I'm not sure what's been occurring here as of late, but I'd like to remind everyone of a few things. This is not directed at any single individual.
1. Perception is reality for the person who experiences it.
2. When we don't "get" someone else's point of view, it doesn't automatically make them "wrong".
3. C&V has high community standards for civility.
4. The longer a corpse lays out in the open, the more likely it is to spread disease.
My assessment is that the thread is ceasing to be a positive vehicle for discussion. I am closing it - at least for now. If you feel strongly that I'm in error here, please PM me, lotek, cuda2k, or one of the other C&V moderators, or BF administrators.
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