When I spoke with Jim at Cyclart AFTER they had inspected the bike, he said they would do the work. He did say he preferred a full refinish because "you never know when to stop retouching with a partial restore", but agreed to do it regardless if the original paint was that important to me. I was very thankful and told him I hated being a nuisance, but that the bike had a lot of sentimental value and apologized if I was being a burden, but that I was very appreciative that he agreed to take the job. But a few weeks later he changed his mind... So I thought, alright, I can understand them not wanting to do a partial restore, they're perfectionists and take pride in their work, so I figured might as well go for the COMPLETE (and expensive) retouching service and asked for an estimate... I specifically chose Cycleart because they are one of the few shops that can perform this type of work.



So yes, I do have a gripe with Cyclart... and from the feedback I've gotten on the CR list, it looks like I'm only one of MANY unsatisfied customers:

- "Avoid Cunningham at all costs"
- "Sadly Your experience with Cunningham is pretty typical"
- "Cyclart has botched many jobs before"
- "Arrogant"
- "would never send them anything"
- "I would not use them again or recommend them to anyone"

Makes you wonder...

Glad they refused the job after all!

I happen to think both parties were elements of the problem. With this vendor I could have predicted this result unfortunately.

Why not send some images by email first? A verbal description or written one only goes so far.

And indeed, why suggest he send it only to then turn it down knowing the effort and cost to get it there? Hoping the client will change his mind and go the full respray since it is already there?
Would it not be reasonable to have some images of the frame and even packing just in case the shipper damaged it or lost it?

OP, agreed, so long as you get your frame back ok

Disappointement from being told the work could be done not once but twice, the general unpleasantness of dealing with the arrogant and pretentious, the $$$ pissed away for shipping...

I checked the CR list archives, those were probably off list comments, but probably accurate descriptions of the results. I would be bummed if I was in your position too, your cost will be probably be $200 round trip, you will be back where you started and out $200. Not a happy expenditure.

So, why not ask this forum or the CR list for recent recommendations of similar work before spending this money, time and effort?

Dang, I hope Cycleart isn't developing a bad reputation here at the C&V Forum.......of all places.
These guys have been around so long! WTH!??

I've encountered arrogance myself when dealing with bicycle businesses, specially ones that consider themselves as "special" sources for vintage and classic parts and bikes. Unfortunately, these businesses are mostly run by owners who must sometimes feel they get bombarded by non-stop C&V questions that they sometimes shut down on you when you try to talk to them. I found out that you almost have to prove your "worth" to them by making them realize that you also know what you are talking about. Such was the experience I had with one of our LBS that seem to just generally brush me away the first few times I went in their shop looking for NOS parts for my Peugeot......eventually they seemed to get comfortable with me. then I noticed that after my experience with them getting my spokes and other parts for my own wheel building project last year, the ice seems to have finally been completely broken. The guys at the shop now seems to fall over each other to serve me when I appear at their shop these days. It's just one of those things that just happens in small businesses.....It can go very well from the first time or bad then well or just bad all the way....... I guess it's always our option to go to the next business for better service.

Chombi

The real reason to avoid cyclart is to avoid having that ugly cyclart logo transfer on the chain stay.

What would annoy me the most is that after discussing it on the phone and coming to an agreement on the work to be done, you then get an estimate for something other than what was agreed upon...and that happening twice! Seems like a pretty basic customer service tactic to get in touch with the client to let them know why you can't do what you had agreed to do.

There is the bike shop side of this, the customer who comes in and plays stump the expert. The won't purchase anything unless you can pass their bike expert test. On guy came in and on the third visit decided he needed to buy a set of spokes for his rear wheel, the other guys, said, that won't be in Sutherland's, so let's ask the expert, I soon realized that I at age 14 was going to play the expert. I gave him the answers for the two spoke lengths needed and the guy was like- You Know? Yes, I built one like that yesterday. Then, toying with him, I asked what way are you going to lace it? Huh? Which side will the leading spoke be on? On each flange? I ended up building his wheel.

Precisely! To some extent, they did you a favor.

Okay, I got it (finally).

Interesting thread. How bad is the original paint on a scale from 1 to 10? How would I fix a dent in the top tube that's just cosmetic? Bondo, baby!. Sometimes it's just not possible to touch up original paint.
If it's that valuable to you, why not restore it to it's original glory?

And lose all that glorious patina he's worked so hard for?!?

Bondo? I guess that would work, question would be getting it to stick I guess..... Makes me think of a couple of small dents in the Raleigh I am tearing down at the moment. I need to touch up the paint anyway and fix some rust, so Bondo over the dents, add paint, I guess that would work OK. Hmmmm....

The larger the dent the more likely that the tube is out of round in the immediate area. The typical approach is to use tubing blocks and the frame in a bench vise. Clamp in place, maybe some grease and work it back and forth to help roll the dent out. It will not fully return, the paint will be most likely toast in that region, then fill what is left. Almost any filler will require that area to be down to bare metal to adhere. I have used JB Weld and another time body lead to do the task. Bondo only for pin hole craters. And for that use Evercoat Featherfill, it is much finer grained than body shop typical bondo, sands fast, less filling.

Yes, and you knew it when he started balking. Lesson learned?

Joe Bell, another reknowned painter/refinisher is 30 minutes away from CycleArt. They should have "referred" you to Joe and even dropped off the frame at his shop IMO.

They have the right to refuse any work, but they don't have the right to tell a customer one thing, have him ship their bike to them (at the customer's expense), and then change their mind after holding onto the bike for several weeks.

Franklin Frame is an excellent choice. Excellent work and very reasonable pricing.

I don't think Joe is taking any jobs at the moment....

Cyclart responded to this parallel thread on the CR list today.

I will repeat that I think both could have thought through their approach and arrived at a conclusion much cheaper than they have it appears. Here is the cyclart reply:

From: Greg Reiche <shop(AT)cyclart.com>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:28:52 -0400
Subject: [CR] FW: Disappointing Cyclart experience

Dear List,

Jim asked me to send his reply to Paul's post for him.

Greg Reiche
CyclArt
Vista, CA USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cunningham
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 3:29 PM
To: Greg Reiche
Subject: RE: [CR] Disappointing Cyclart experience

As always, there are two sides to each story. Putting aside the issue of
whether Paul's original post is appropriate for the CR list, much less the
best way to resolve his problem, we feel it's in everyone's interest to
share our side, to explain the process and values by which we make our
recommendations.

As with all customers in the preliminary stages of the process, Paul has
sent us no money, and has received our best advice. We have never sent
Paul an estimate for a "cheap powdercoat." The estimate we sent was for a
top tube dent repair and complete refinish with accurate decals. The
frame would look like new. We understand and respect that he wants the
original finish preserved, because it's really not that bad and the
blemishes all speak to his history with the bike, so we offered to clean,
wax and preserve his original finish. What we declined to do was a
half-assed job that would look all wrong. We can do better.

We do many touch-ups or "Partials" at CyclArt. Our objective is to make
the damaged area appear that it was never damaged. If, in our professional
opinion, we can't do a seamless undetectable repair, we won't do it. If
someone just wants to cover the damaged area to protect it, and make it
less conspicuous, we coach them on how to do it themselves.

When I first spoke to Paul about a dent repair and touch-up I asked, as I
always do, if the paint outside the damaged areas was unblemished. We do
not recommend touch-ups on frames with many little blemishes because the
repaired area would be conspicuous in its lack of blemishes, and it is
hard to decide where to stop the repair. A good candidate for a partial
has an almost blemish-free finish with a few areas that need attention. A
poor candidate is a frame with many small blemishes, because the time
involved in matching and blending-in each damaged area often exceeds the
time it takes to do a complete refinish.

When the frame arrived, the top tube dent was as expected, no real problem
there. But we expected a couple of other bad spots and an otherwise
unblemished frame. What we received is a frame with tiny nicks amd
scratches everywhere. There is not a single square inch on the frame or
fork anywhere that is not blemished. Still, all the blemishes are minor,
in our opinion. Since the frame shows its "experience," we saw really no
reason to paint it unless one wants it returned to new condition.

The problem in this case is that Paul asked us to repair the top tube, the
right chainstay, an area under the front derailleur and bottom bracket,
and the front and rear dropout areas. If we did as requested, Paul's
frame would have obvious touch-ups because these are the areas that
typically have more wear, but would be appear new, while the rest of the
frame would show its age. Furthermore, since there are blemishes on every
square centimeter of the fork and stays, we could not find a good place to
stop the touch-up.

When the frame first arrived, we expressed these concerns to Paul, and he
stressed (as he has in his post) the low value of the frame, saying "it
does not have to be perfect." It's not a question of perfection though;
doing what he asks makes the frame look worse than doing nothing at all.

Our advice was that we should clean, wax and preserve his existing finish.
After all, the dent is small and not structural. With all the concern
about the history of the frame, it seems to be part of that history.
Alternatively, we can do a complete and accurate restoration, for less
that Paul expected. We gave him an estimate for the latter. The only
other approach would be to do a seamless touch-up and "Cycltique" of the
touched-up areas so they are not conspicuous, but this is more
time-consuming and expensive than the complete refinish and would not look
much different from what he has now except for the dent repair.

We DO understand passion and history and owner's attachment to a bicycle
frame. That is why we do what we do! We simply declined to do a job
would likely result in dissatisfaction for both our craftspeople and the owner.

Jim Cunningham
CyclArt, Inc.
2590 Pioneer Avenue
Suite A
Vista, CA 92081-8427

760-599-1016

www.CyclArt.com

I think that Mr. Cunningham's response sounds very reasonable. And it appears that he was in fact refusing to do work that would have looked substandard had he done it the customer's way.

And in my eyes... the OP loses considerable credibility by posting his gripes publicly on multiple boards in a way that smacks of retribution.

I was looking at listings for businesses for sale a few months ago, and CyclArt was listed for sale. I don't think that has any bearing on this issue, just FYI.

...long ago. Just took this long for someone to rant about it here in BF instead of CR.

-Kurt

Maybe Cycleart can put out a statement on their site saying what services they would much rather not do.
Paul's request is admittedly unusual, where he only wanted restoration of specific areas on the bike frame while willing to live with what Cycleart pretty much describes as a sea of nicks and scratches all over the bike. Both sides have a point, but in the end, both don't have to agree on what Cycleart should provide as their service that follows their standards of QA/QC or "mission statement". I say the two parties just drop the case and move on. I'm sure the OP can find another restorer willing to do the special things he needs done to his frame and Cycleart can figure out a way to avoid this situation in the future soon enough that the customer does not feel they were either let on or confused.

Chombi

Agreed. I have been hearing lately that more and more people are very unhappy with them. One problem, I am told, is that they have become terrible at their decal reproductions, and that they mostly they prefer to do only full out restoration and billion dollar paint jobs, with no deadline. I was able to experience first hand the "craftsmanship" they are putting out. They sure skimped on my frame. What I requested and paid for was certainly below what I got back. So much so that I am really questioning if they actually did all that they advertise that I should get when my frame was worked on. I'm planning to get some quotes from other painters and may have the bike repainted within a year. It will need it. I'll first see about resolving this, as the owner of my LBS who handled it for me is a personal friend and business associate of the main people there from way back when. But really, what the OP experienced does not surprise me.