1972 Eddy Merckx

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03-23-11 | 10:04 AM

#51

Otis

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Joined: Mar 2006

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rothenfield1

This makes more sense to me than much of this post. Spoken like a frame builder I'm suspecting. Unfortunately, most of us aren't. And the trouble is this part:"you need to look at the work." I think there is a very small collective of people around the world that could look at "the work" and determine what a good day and a bad day was. This is why this Forum is important. If you want to preserve the value of these bikes, someone needs to keep edifying people like moi.

I am not and would never want to be a frame builder. But I have made some attempts at filing lugs. Shaping and thinning a set of pressed lugs and BB shell really taught me a lot about what I was looking at on these vintage frames. I've also been lucky enough to see a lot the classic Italian machines from the 60's and 70's without paint on them. Seeing the bikes in person is the most important thing.

03-23-11 | 12:06 PM

#52

Picchio Special

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Joined: Jul 2007

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From: Lancaster County, PA

Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otis

Otis is right on the money. You don't have to be a framebuilder. It helps. It helps to see bikes with the paint off. But you still develop a pretty strong sense of what you like and why by paying close attention to the details and having some appreciation, no matter how rudimentary, of what it takes to sweat those details. You have to talk to people who know this stuff, and look closely at a lot of bikes. The very good and very poor and more interesting examples really aren't that hard to spot. Then when you know what you like and why, you can look beyond the names and the chrome. Even those Italian bikes from the 60's and 70's that have flaws without paint, or evidence shortcuts, still sometimes evidence a particular aesthetic, or sensibility as to the relationship between the details and the whole, or neat little touches or flourishes, that make them worthy of attention, IMO.

03-23-11 | 12:25 PM

#53

martl

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Joined: May 2007

Posts: 1,404

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From: Black Forest, Germany

Bikes: too many

The frame has no similarity to a Kessels-Merckx

(see:

but a lot of similarity to this 1975 Vicini

and other mid-classitalian frames of that time, which mostly came from large OEMs like Billato or Biemmezeta and were sold under myriads of brands, from Colnago down.

03-23-11 | 01:54 PM

#54

vjp

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Joined: May 2006

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That Kessels is an entry level bike but mine isn't, and they are similar.

Vicini were built by Vicini.

Quote:

Originally Posted by martl

The frame has no similarity to a Kessels-Merckx

(see:

but a lot of similarity to this 1975 Vicini

and other mid-classitalian frames of that time, which mostly came from large OEMs like Billato or Biemmezeta and were sold under myriads of brands, from Colnago down.

03-23-11 | 02:28 PM

#55

martl

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Joined: May 2007

Posts: 1,404

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From: Black Forest, Germany

Bikes: too many

Quote:

Originally Posted by vjp

That Kessels is an entry level bike but mine isn't, and they are similar.

Mine isn't really an entry level bike although it isn't exactly very refined. Its a NR equipped bike with some panto parts. Kessels bikes are like this; work horses, no show pieces (maybe apart from the ones used by Eddy himself)

In fact, it is quite similar to this one which belongs to a friend of mine:

This bike has 1st Gen SR and drillium all over it. If you compare the lugs and fork crown, i think my position becomes clear; i highly doubt Paulinhos bike is a Kessels. I think its made in Italy.

Quote:

Vicini were built by Vicini.

I've seen too many twins of this very frame with different labels on it to count.

A posting by Lou Deeter to the CR list:
https://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.as...10402.0134.eml

Quote:

"I got the below email from Billato about a year ago. When I shared this
with some listmembers they thought it was bunk. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL

>From a Billato rep:
"I can't really go into who we build for a great deal as we have to
respect client confidentiality, but over the years Billato has built a
great number of frames for a whole host of well known names. You mentioned
Lemond, when he won the 1989 Tour, his time trial bike was built by
Billato, so that should lead to another brand! The guy who won the year
before, rode a Billato-built frame, as did the guy the year before. In
1990, Lemond won again, riding steel frames built from Excell tubes that
Billato helped develop. Some of these were TIG-welded, which hadn't been
seen on a road frame before. Others took the credit for introducing this a
year later.

There was the big Dutch team in the 80's, they rode Billato built frames.
More recently, in 1999, five of the teams riding the Tour rode
Billato-built frames. Last year 'only' three. Perhaps the best one â€” for
me anyway, is that shortly after Silvio Billato started the company, he
was supplying great rivals Coppi AND Bartali - at the same time!
Some of the early US Masi's were Billato. Also Cinelli Super Corsa.
They're no longer built so it's OK for the public domain as it were!

BTW, I spotted a Vicini on Classic Rendezvous a couple of weeks back. That
one too "

Attached Images

Kessels.jpg (43.2 KB, 67 views)

Kessels2.jpg (83.6 KB, 68 views)

Last edited by martl; 03-23-11 at 02:37 PM.

03-23-11 | 03:06 PM

#56

bobbycorno

Senior Member

Joined: Sep 2007

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Picchio Special

In this case, we don't even know if it was made with "SL," since that's the "catch-all" Columbus decal for the 70's - could just as well be the equivalent of SP.

??? SL and SP were identical quality, identical alloy, the only difference being wall thickness. SP was .1mm thicker and intended for larger frames. And AFAIK, all Columbus tubing of that era (early 70's) was CrMo. Aelle, Zeta, and all the other lesser alloys came along later.

SP
Bend, OR

03-23-11 | 04:31 PM

#57

Picchio Special

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Joined: Jul 2007

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From: Lancaster County, PA

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbycorno

I was merely pointing out you were apparently making an assumption - I'm about the last guy on Bike Forums to get too caught up in what's on the tubing sticker, which I think many posts of mine will back up. The quality of the material is of course the same; the ride quality could of course differ - for either the better or worse, depending on the frame size, rider, etc. It was also of course common for many builders to use SP on larger frames, but this wasn't automatic or always the case.