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When was this Cinelli built?

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When was this Cinelli built?

Old 06-27-11, 04:59 AM
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bsherrill
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When was this Cinelli built?

Hello and good day
I have had for a number or years a Cinelli with ser # 6599. I am wondering when the bike was made? It appears all orignal and has neve been painted with Campy equipment.
Thanks
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Old 06-27-11, 05:02 AM
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Pictures?
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Old 06-27-11, 06:30 AM
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A serial number before 1980 gives absolutely no clue to when it was made.

Pictures of the lugs, BB shell and components are necessary.
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Old 06-27-11, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
A serial number before 1980 gives absolutely no clue to when it was made.

Pictures of the lugs, BB shell and components are necessary.
I will post pictures as soon as possible. Hopefully later today
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Old 06-27-11, 07:01 AM
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I will post pictures as soon as I can. Today possible.
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Old 06-27-11, 08:03 AM
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The decoding of vintage Cinelli serial numbers is a pursuit that has fascinated, then humbled the best of us. Like the Golden Fleece, Cleopatra's Tomb and the Ark of the Covenant, the Rosetta Stone of Cinelli serial numbers has yet to be found, though not from lack of searching. Some believe that world peace, freedom from hunger and health care for all will be achieved when the solution is found. There's a wing in the local nut house occupied by demented old bikies who spend their miserable lives wearing out pencils by the gross, using up paper by the ream, consulting arcane texts, trying to work out the secret of Cinelli serial numbers.
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Old 06-27-11, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by aixaix View Post
The decoding of vintage Cinelli serial numbers is a pursuit that has fascinated, then humbled the best of us. Like the Golden Fleece, Cleopatra's Tomb and the Ark of the Covenant, the Rosetta Stone of Cinelli serial numbers has yet to be found, though not from lack of searching. Some believe that world peace, freedom from hunger and health care for all will be achieved when the solution is found. There's a wing in the local nut house occupied by demented old bikies who spend their miserable lives wearing out pencils by the gross, using up paper by the ream, consulting arcane texts, trying to work out the secret of Cinelli serial numbers.
In the upcoming sequal to "Stargate," James Spader travels through the space-time continuum to again visit the alien culture that constructed the pyramids in the hope they can help him decode a Cinelli serial number database he has spent decades compiling and cross-referencing with frame features. Not to spoil the ending, but apparently it turns out that they have no clue.
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Old 06-27-11, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by aixaix View Post
The decoding of vintage Cinelli serial numbers is a pursuit that has fascinated, then humbled the best of us. Like the Golden Fleece, Cleopatra's Tomb and the Ark of the Covenant, the Rosetta Stone of Cinelli serial numbers has yet to be found, though not from lack of searching. Some believe that world peace, freedom from hunger and health care for all will be achieved when the solution is found. There's a wing in the local nut house occupied by demented old bikies who spend their miserable lives wearing out pencils by the gross, using up paper by the ream, consulting arcane texts, trying to work out the secret of Cinelli serial numbers.
Indeed. My head still hurts from trying to date mine.

Seriously, though. Is there a single working document anywhere that attempts to date Cinellis based on their frame features (like the Colnago timeline dating guide in the CR archives)? I've only been able to find the occasional disparate scrap of info. scattered throughout the BF and CR archives. If not, perhaps we should start one?

For those not familiar, the Colnago timeline is:

"Outlined below is the most comprehensive (to date) Colnago Super timeline
beginning in ~1969 and going up through the mid/late 70's. There are still
numerous blanks and some conflicting thoughts - all are presented below.
I've done the best I could based on all the snippets of info provided so
please, no flames if you disagree or if I got something wrong; a simple note
to me with your info will get it added/included to the info below. I will
update the list and send out as appropriate. Also, do keep in mind that
"dates" are subject to variation, no one believes that Colnago made these
changes on January 1st of each new year and therefore use them as a guide to
the year of manufacture or availability.

Keep in mind that this is not definitive and is based solely on the inputs
from numerous list members with varying degrees of experience and/or
ownership (original owner vs. subsequent owner, restorers, and enthusiasts
like me that have been looking at them for years but still await the right
one to come along).

A few CR members have wrote to advise that the standard production bikes
were fairly consistent but that Colnago's could be special-ordered at any
time and thus could include any number of details that might seem
atypical... graphics, custom paint, chrome, etc.

Lugs:
1969: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, all clubs are the same size. Note however that
one experienced member recalls differently "I've never seen a Super with
cutouts all the same size. That would be physically impossible anyway,
based on the sizes of the lug tangs."
1970: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, but club in bottom head lug is now larger than
the other lugs.
1971: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, but club in bottom head lug is now larger than
the other lugs.
1972: 3 lugs cutout, all same size.
1973: 3 lugs cutout, all same size. There is general consensus on this too
but note again that an experienced member believes the single cut-out came
earlier; may have been as early as 1972.
1974: Cutout in bottom headlug only.
1975: Cutout in bottom headlug only.
General comments: the "fluffier/bulbous" club cutouts appear on the earlier
bikes. The smaller/leaner cutouts began to show up, give or take, sometime
after 1975.

Fork Crown:
1969: Two holes in each side of crown, crown itself is a sand cast type
crown. Some may also have Vagner forged crown, two holes in sides.
1970: First use of investment cast semi-sloping crown, two holes in each
side.
1971: IC crown, two holes in each side of crown
1972: IC crown, two holes in sides and club in top of each side of crown for
the first time.
1973: IC crown, club on top of each side of crown.
1974: IC crown, club in top of each side of crown.
1975: IC crown, club and "COLNAGO" on top of each side of crown. There were
numerous contributions supporting this but again, a experienced member took
the time to write "this is too early for the *Colnago* in the crown. I
think that came in by 1977 or so. The first generation Mexico's had no
"Colnago" in the crown, and their first year was 1975...earliest possible
year for the Colnago stamp in the crown would be 1976, but I'm betting it
was later than that.

Fork Tangs:
1969: Fork tangs are blank.
1970: Fork tang can be blank and a wide tang as opposed to the typical
narrower ones.
1971: Often blank narrow tangs.
1972: Narrow tangs with two holes, upper hole larger than lower hole.
1973: Some narrow tangs with two holes but now usually with club in them.
1974: Tangs with clubs.
1975: Tangs with clubs

Seat Stay Caps:
Years??: Plain fluted, ??" length
Years??: Plain fluted, ??" length (I think the length changed)
Years:??: Fluted with "COLNAGO" cast along the flute length.

Rear Brake Bridge:
Years??: Round tube w/brazed on washer (facing the brake caliper),
reinforced at seat stays, for nutted brake bolts.
Years??: Round with square/cube area that accepts recessed brake bolt, (did
this have a club in the top?).

Bottom Bracket:
1969: Circular drilled holes pattern in BB shell.
1970: Club cutout in BB shell.
1972: Club cutout in BB shell.
1973: Club cutout in BB shell.
1974: Club cutout in BB shell.
1975: Club cutout in BB shell.

Drop-out's:
1974/75: Sometime between '74 & '75 there should be a change from long
Campag drop-outs to the shorter ones.

Braze On's:
197? & earlier: none except chain stay derailleur cable stop
197? - 197?: Above plus over BB cable guides
197? - 197?: Above plus shift lever mounts
197? - 197?: Above plus one set DT water bottle mounts
19?? - 19??: Above plus ST water bottle mounts
1976/77: Above plus first appearance of two TT brake cable guides (note that
the "Colnago" cast into the fork crowns definitely happened before the
addition of TT brake cable braze-ons).

Decals:
1968/69: The playing-card-style decals appeared on frames imported to North
America in 1968 or 1969.
1969: Playing card graphics.
1970: Playing card decals?
1971: Playing card graphics?
1972: Graphics change, now just Colnago on DT and first appearance of head
decal just a club with Colnago underneath.
1973: First appearance of "wreath" decal on seat tube, between the bands.
1975: Another graphics change?
1977/78: Another graphics change?

Chrome:
Generally the Colnago crowns are chromed.
General comments: Sometimes the dropouts are chromed on these early bikes.
This varies. Head-lugs were chromed sometimes also, nearly always on show
bikes..but not confined to them.

Known Original Standard Colors:
1972/73: Turquoise/baby blue
Early/mid 70's: Candy green, candy red, candy blue, Molteni orange, yellow,
mauve metallic, black, silver, white, pearl white, electric blue,
salmon-metallic (similar to Cinelli Rose, but lighter), light purple
metallic.
General comments: some wrote to advise you could get a Colnago painted
nearly any color you can imagine.

Known variations:
With Colnago in the earlier years there are a few slight variations
possible, mainly in the fork tangs. One list member has a '74 with no fork
tangs at all. He also had a '74 that had a club in the
bottom headlug and the SEAT lug only, none in top headlug (he suspects a
stray leftover cutout seat lug). Another member also knows of an original
'72 track bike with road blades in a Vagner crown and no chrome. Finally
two list members have/had ~1975 frames where the crowns were painted, not
chromed.

Mexico notes:
Early first-generation Mexico's looked just like older Supers, except for
the thinner tubing.


Respectfully submitted by Eric Elman, Somers, CT"
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Old 06-27-11, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bibliobob View Post
Indeed. My head still hurts from trying to date mine.

Seriously, though. Is there a single working document anywhere that attempts to date Cinellis based on their frame features (like the Colnago timeline dating guide in the CR archives)? I've only been able to find the occasional disparate scrap of info. scattered throughout the BF and CR archives. If not, perhaps we should start one?

For those not familiar, the Colnago timeline is:

"Outlined below is the most comprehensive (to date) Colnago Super timeline
beginning in ~1969 and going up through the mid/late 70's. There are still
numerous blanks and some conflicting thoughts - all are presented below.
I've done the best I could based on all the snippets of info provided so
please, no flames if you disagree or if I got something wrong; a simple note
to me with your info will get it added/included to the info below. I will
update the list and send out as appropriate. Also, do keep in mind that
"dates" are subject to variation, no one believes that Colnago made these
changes on January 1st of each new year and therefore use them as a guide to
the year of manufacture or availability.

Keep in mind that this is not definitive and is based solely on the inputs
from numerous list members with varying degrees of experience and/or
ownership (original owner vs. subsequent owner, restorers, and enthusiasts
like me that have been looking at them for years but still await the right
one to come along).

A few CR members have wrote to advise that the standard production bikes
were fairly consistent but that Colnago's could be special-ordered at any
time and thus could include any number of details that might seem
atypical... graphics, custom paint, chrome, etc.

Lugs:
1969: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, all clubs are the same size. Note however that
one experienced member recalls differently "I've never seen a Super with
cutouts all the same size. That would be physically impossible anyway,
based on the sizes of the lug tangs."
1970: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, but club in bottom head lug is now larger than
the other lugs.
1971: Cutouts in all 3 lugs, but club in bottom head lug is now larger than
the other lugs.
1972: 3 lugs cutout, all same size.
1973: 3 lugs cutout, all same size. There is general consensus on this too
but note again that an experienced member believes the single cut-out came
earlier; may have been as early as 1972.
1974: Cutout in bottom headlug only.
1975: Cutout in bottom headlug only.
General comments: the "fluffier/bulbous" club cutouts appear on the earlier
bikes. The smaller/leaner cutouts began to show up, give or take, sometime
after 1975.

Fork Crown:
1969: Two holes in each side of crown, crown itself is a sand cast type
crown. Some may also have Vagner forged crown, two holes in sides.
1970: First use of investment cast semi-sloping crown, two holes in each
side.
1971: IC crown, two holes in each side of crown
1972: IC crown, two holes in sides and club in top of each side of crown for
the first time.
1973: IC crown, club on top of each side of crown.
1974: IC crown, club in top of each side of crown.
1975: IC crown, club and "COLNAGO" on top of each side of crown. There were
numerous contributions supporting this but again, a experienced member took
the time to write "this is too early for the *Colnago* in the crown. I
think that came in by 1977 or so. The first generation Mexico's had no
"Colnago" in the crown, and their first year was 1975...earliest possible
year for the Colnago stamp in the crown would be 1976, but I'm betting it
was later than that.

Fork Tangs:
1969: Fork tangs are blank.
1970: Fork tang can be blank and a wide tang as opposed to the typical
narrower ones.
1971: Often blank narrow tangs.
1972: Narrow tangs with two holes, upper hole larger than lower hole.
1973: Some narrow tangs with two holes but now usually with club in them.
1974: Tangs with clubs.
1975: Tangs with clubs

Seat Stay Caps:
Years??: Plain fluted, ??" length
Years??: Plain fluted, ??" length (I think the length changed)
Years:??: Fluted with "COLNAGO" cast along the flute length.

Rear Brake Bridge:
Years??: Round tube w/brazed on washer (facing the brake caliper),
reinforced at seat stays, for nutted brake bolts.
Years??: Round with square/cube area that accepts recessed brake bolt, (did
this have a club in the top?).

Bottom Bracket:
1969: Circular drilled holes pattern in BB shell.
1970: Club cutout in BB shell.
1972: Club cutout in BB shell.
1973: Club cutout in BB shell.
1974: Club cutout in BB shell.
1975: Club cutout in BB shell.

Drop-out's:
1974/75: Sometime between '74 & '75 there should be a change from long
Campag drop-outs to the shorter ones.

Braze On's:
197? & earlier: none except chain stay derailleur cable stop
197? - 197?: Above plus over BB cable guides
197? - 197?: Above plus shift lever mounts
197? - 197?: Above plus one set DT water bottle mounts
19?? - 19??: Above plus ST water bottle mounts
1976/77: Above plus first appearance of two TT brake cable guides (note that
the "Colnago" cast into the fork crowns definitely happened before the
addition of TT brake cable braze-ons).

Decals:
1968/69: The playing-card-style decals appeared on frames imported to North
America in 1968 or 1969.
1969: Playing card graphics.
1970: Playing card decals?
1971: Playing card graphics?
1972: Graphics change, now just Colnago on DT and first appearance of head
decal just a club with Colnago underneath.
1973: First appearance of "wreath" decal on seat tube, between the bands.
1975: Another graphics change?
1977/78: Another graphics change?

Chrome:
Generally the Colnago crowns are chromed.
General comments: Sometimes the dropouts are chromed on these early bikes.
This varies. Head-lugs were chromed sometimes also, nearly always on show
bikes..but not confined to them.

Known Original Standard Colors:
1972/73: Turquoise/baby blue
Early/mid 70's: Candy green, candy red, candy blue, Molteni orange, yellow,
mauve metallic, black, silver, white, pearl white, electric blue,
salmon-metallic (similar to Cinelli Rose, but lighter), light purple
metallic.
General comments: some wrote to advise you could get a Colnago painted
nearly any color you can imagine.

Known variations:
With Colnago in the earlier years there are a few slight variations
possible, mainly in the fork tangs. One list member has a '74 with no fork
tangs at all. He also had a '74 that had a club in the
bottom headlug and the SEAT lug only, none in top headlug (he suspects a
stray leftover cutout seat lug). Another member also knows of an original
'72 track bike with road blades in a Vagner crown and no chrome. Finally
two list members have/had ~1975 frames where the crowns were painted, not
chromed.

Mexico notes:
Early first-generation Mexico's looked just like older Supers, except for
the thinner tubing.


Respectfully submitted by Eric Elman, Somers, CT"
There is a much better updated version of that Colnago timeline compiled by Chuck Schmidt.
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Old 06-27-11, 09:28 AM
  #10  
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If anybody could produce something similar for Cinelli, it would be our own Citoyen Du Monde. I think they let him out alternate Thursdays.
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Old 06-27-11, 09:30 AM
  #11  
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C'mon Charles!
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Old 06-27-11, 11:09 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by aixaix View Post
If anybody could produce something similar for Cinelli, it would be our own Citoyen Du Monde. I think they let him out alternate Thursdays.
Jon Barron knows his Cinellis as well.
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Old 06-27-11, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by aixaix View Post
If anybody could produce something similar for Cinelli, it would be our own Citoyen Du Monde. I think they let him out alternate Thursdays.

Shhhhh! I snuck out early!

I don't think these timelines are very useful insofar as they are never perfectly accurate and don't recognize the fact that Cinelli was very small and all it took was for Valsassina to wake up on the wrong/right side of the bed one day to make a modification for one or perhaps a few dozen bikes. Likewise,, it wasn't as if he decided that he absolutely had to build all his frames identically. Back in the day, you used to buy the knowledge and skill of the builder and not a bike "model".

Post the photos and I will take a look. Show the rear drop-outs, seat lug, bottom bracket shell (top and bottom view), head lugs, fork crown and then at least one overview.
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Old 06-28-11, 03:58 AM
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Have a look through How Old Is My Bicycle? and you should be able to come pretty darn close to identifying the bicycle's vintage. Hope this is a help.
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Old 06-28-11, 07:09 AM
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Maybe we CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! ?

https://youtu.be/8hGvQtumNAY
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Old 06-28-11, 07:25 AM
  #16  
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When was my Cenilli built?

Please see attached pics of my Cinelli which I have had for many years. It need restoration for sure.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
brake1.jpg (95.4 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg
crank.jpg (98.8 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg
frame2.jpg (98.2 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg
headset1.jpg (90.8 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg
crest9.jpg (88.2 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg
lug2.jpg (84.6 KB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg
derailer3.jpg (93.5 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg
headset.jpg (88.3 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg
crest7.jpg (84.8 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg
seat post.jpg (93.8 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg
fork1.jpg (94.6 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg
brake3.jpg (90.0 KB, 68 views)
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Old 06-28-11, 07:32 AM
  #17  
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I'd guess mid to late 60's, and from the eyelets I'd guess Special Course rather than Super Course.
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Old 06-28-11, 07:35 AM
  #18  
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I'm guessing early to mid 70's on account of Campy brakes. The rear derailleur should have a patent date on it, PAT 74 or something... which would be a good clue.
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Old 06-28-11, 08:07 AM
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Nitor post? No holes in the lugs but no wolf ears either? Looks like 1963 - 1968 to me. Looks great to me - I would proceed very, very carefully with any "restoration" or you'll risk seriously de-valuing the bike. The 3 holes appeared in '68, so this bike is obviously pre-'68.

Awesome bike by the way!
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Old 06-28-11, 09:02 AM
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Model B fork, so probably a Model B. No holes in the lugs & older style seat binder bolt point to mid-late 1960s. The seat tube may have a decal saying "Model B" or "Special Corsa". The brakes are definitely a later addition. Check the top of the rear derailleur for a date. If none, just "Patent", derailleur may be original (68, 69). If you have the original wheels, check the lock nuts for dating. Pix of the seat tube decals, top & bottom of the bottom bracket & top of the rear derailleur would be nice.
The chrome isn't too bad- should clean up nicely.

Lucky you!

Also, a deeply cool Nitor seat post!
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Old 06-28-11, 09:09 AM
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I'm going to try to pin it down, we'll see if the date codes offer anything concrete: 1967 Model B. I would say earlier based on the post, but I think if it were early 60's it would have Universal brakes, a cottered Magistroni crank and a Cinelli, not Campy headset. Also I'd expect Cinelli steel bars and stem. If all that Campy stuff is original I would say as late 60's as possible without the holes in the lugs, so 1967. Don't be put off or confused like I was by no oiler port in the bb, the Model B never had one.
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Old 06-28-11, 09:16 AM
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Here's my early 60's B, just because I rarely have an excuse to post it:
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Old 06-28-11, 09:28 AM
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A great Cinelli in a classic color. To me the last thing you would want to do is "restore" that bike. A careful cleaning and full meachanical overhaul is all that is needed in my opinion.

I'd say mid to later 60's with some updated parts along the way. Nothing that would be out of place on a bike that was being ridden through the 70's. I'd probably leave them with the bike as they are all good upgrades if you are going to ride it.
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Old 06-28-11, 09:51 AM
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Special Course/Super Course were the same bike. Most of the 60's and many early 70's ones had fender eyelets, but as posted that is a Mod. B.

Originally Posted by mudboy View Post
I'd guess mid to late 60's, and from the eyelets I'd guess Special Course rather than Super Course.
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Old 06-28-11, 10:03 AM
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I think if it were early 60's it would have Universal brakes, a cottered Magistroni crank and a Cinelli, not Campy headset. Also I'd expect Cinelli steel bars and stem.
I agree with your dating it from 1963-1968, but would point out that the brakes, front derailleur & stem have definitely been updated. Therefore, the components are not necessarily as old as the frame, and of limited value in dating it. I believe the bars, stem & brakes were put on later (maybe they came together from another bike), as they are all 1970ish parts (give or take a few years). The 1A stem has a recessed pinchbolt nut which dates from the mid 70s, while the brakes are flat QR NRs (with later shoes) which means they could be a bit earlier, but they aren't as old as the frame. The front derailleur is also from about the same period, as it has a retaining circlip, making it a 1973-77 Record (according to Velo-base, as well as my own recollection). As you pointed out earlier, the lack of holes in the lugs, as well as their style are the real clues to the frame's age.
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