T-Mar

Campagnolo had great movements, hard chainrings, excellent small parts availability and great durability. However, they also missed the boat, a lot. The first derailleur was archaic, the hybrid metric and imperial threading system is an engineering faux pas, designing Syncro to be backwards compatible resulted in a system that was mediocre and the clipless SGR pedals were overweight, complex and ugly. There was total failure, on almost all levels, of the ATB groups. Then there are the niggly little things like left hand extractor threads on C-Record cranksets, hard to adjust Record seatposts, 3.5mm Delta cable anchor bolts, independent freehubs, etc. Overall, the track record is not so good. But what really hurts is they they aren't really in the forefront of developing new technology anymore. All the major revolutions in cycling are coming from other companies. For several decades, Campagnolo seems to have been in the rut of copying others and making minor, incremental improvements.

iab

They lost market share years ago. That ship sailed and it isn't coming back. Strong market share enabled them to innovate. Their current strategy as you pointed out suits them and they are doing very well with it.

btw, I could take your argument and say there has been no real innovation in the entire bike industry in 80 years, only incremental improvements.

SteakKnifeSally

I suppose it depends on what you define as innovation. I would cite slant parallelogram derailleurs, dual-pivot brakes, index shifting, aluminum and carbon fiber frames, and most recently di2 as innovations in that time period. I suppose I would have to include mtb suspension as well. And those are just the ones that stuck. (BTW, is it wrong that I only adopted slant parallelogram derailleurs, some dual-pivot brakes, and occasionally index shifting?)

T-Mar

That's an excellent point on the loss of sales and it's effect on research and development. Of course, officially Camapagnolo wound deny a slump in either.

Granted, innovation is a subjective term and you can make arguments for and against any invention. It all depends on where you personally draw the line. However, IMO, since the mid-1980s the innovations from other companies have generally been more significant and have had larger market impact than Campagnolo.

Bandera

Look's innovative Clipless pedals were a total departure from traditional toeclips & straps.

Campi's "me too" attempt was a joke.

-Bandera

Chombi

Campy's nice but not light weight (unless you get their Ti upgrades like BB spindles), compared to other brand components.... But then this usually translates to a more durable/reliable product that lasts a longer time....
Many of their components have very high quality finishes on them, but sometimes they do the weirdest thing like silckreening their logos on some of their top of the line stuff like the Campy logos on Delta caliper covers and C-Record cranksets that actually can fade away just from exposure to the sun...
All in all the "good" pretty much offsets the few "bad" in Campy stuff that you can't really go wrong going with them on your bikes....

Chombi

aidanpringle

I disagree although I don't like electronic shifting the new stuff is quite technically advanced.

rhm

The thing I don't like about Campagnolo is a bit hard to articulate, but here's goes. There are a couple things, actually. First of all, it is polarizing. Almost everyone has an opinion about it, and they either praise it beyond what it deserves, or they crap on it to the same degree. So people talk as though it is exceptional, when in fact it is merely excellent. There's is nothing wrong with excellent, so why pretend its the best thing ever? It isn't. It's only excellent.

Now, none of that really matters to me. But when people see non-campy components and think this is a second rate bike because it doesn't have campy dropouts or some such crap, that bothers me. A couple years ago a forum member showed off a frame he'd found that was just gorgeous, and then he had the original dropouts replaced with campy, shifter bosses added, and so on, as if it wasn't good until it said campy on it. He did not make it any better, just less interesting. That, I thought, was really sad.

That's what I hate about Campy!

iab

Shifting something by a few degrees. Adding one more pivot. Adding a click. Using a preexisting material (aluminum was used 80 years ago). Using a servo (also 80+ years old). Stealing other 100-year-old technology. And using a snap to hold your foot in place instead of a strap is hardly ground breaking.

The standard definition of innovation (while T-Mar used the term "revolutionary", a whole different can of worms) is something new that has impact. Impact is qualitative so I can only have my standard, there have been 2 real innovations with bicycles,

1. Dual triangle frame design
2. The derailleur

Everything else is derivative.

tashi

I hate the Campy seatpost that I have on my Bianchi. Totally impractical design. And it's not even good looking.

tashi

I'd say if you have an appreciation for forms of cycling outside road riding than suspension and hydraulic disc brakes are pretty important advancements.

Pars 

^ But really, aren't those both derivative from the motorcycle/automobile world?

T-Mar makes some excellent points, as does iab (and others). My main bike is a full Campy NR/SR '73 RRA. I have had the same headset and crankset/BB on the bike since new. Durable. I have used 1st gen DA ('70s), and it isn't the equal. Campagnolo is a very small company compared to its competitors, particularly Shimano, so R&D budget has to be miniscule in comparison. Sure they have had some egg in the face missteps along the way. I still wish they did alloy components in their modern stuff also.

Bandera

Unless you were on the start line of a nervous criterium where you only had to clip-in to get full power and solid engagement when others around you were reaching down yanking on toe straps and trying not to foul each other. Same for eliminating the ritual toe strap tightening before big climbs or the inevitable sprint. It kept many of us from breaking something on contact with the ground, good enough.

If you look at the design of the original Look pedal it's not a "snap" but a well engineered release/retention binding, well proven in the ski industry so perhaps tech transfer?

SONNET 59

If there be nothing new, but that which is
Hath been before, how are our brains beguiled,
Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss
The second burden of a former child.
O, that record could with a backward look,
Even of five hundred courses of the sun,
Show me your image in some antique book,
Since mind at first in character was done!
That I might see what the old world could say
To this composed wonder of your frame;
Whether we are mended, or whe'er better they,
Or whether revolution be the same.
O, sure I am, the wits of former days
To subjects worse have given admiring praise.


-Shakespeare

Gary Fountain

I love everything about Campagnolo even when it it is out-performed by another component maker - which is more often than not. Nearly all of my bikes are Campy equipped except for my track bikes and a couple of road bikes. I find that I have a real warm and tangible passion for my Campy bikes that I just don't have for my other bikes equipped with other component makers wares. I'm afraid Shimano, Weinnman, Sunshine, Mavic, Huret, Zeus, Galli, etc. and, to a lesser extent, Suntour just can't develop the heart warming passion that Campagnolo has been able to inject into their components (for me).

I do have a secret passion for Suntour though. Perhaps it's their boldness of design and underdog status that attracts me.

ftwelder

I get a lot more miles between tune ups on NR than on RED or anything with more than 8 cogs. I have some 8 speed DA bikes that are nice but Nouvo Record represents a change in the "angle" of the development curve from what, 1962?. The first "best" was NR. Consider what came before and how long it took to improve on it.

Chombi

There are ways around the "impractical" top two bolt design of the Campy NR seatpost.....

I kinda foresaw the problem with access to the bolts on my NR seatpost when I was looking around for a proper saddle for my bike restore/buildup project last year. I knew I was looking for a Brooks saddle for the bike, but jumped on the opportunity to buy the Imperial saddle from a fellow forum member when I realized that the top cutout will help with access to the bolts. All you need is a socket extension ofr your rachet wrench and adjusting those two clamp bolts is a breeze!
Bonus is, the Imperial had been a very comfortable saddle to ride on.....

spacemanz

Oh no, that'll never do. You have to EARN the right to balance your posterior on a NR saddle post. Mine drove me nuts for about a day & a half, but once I settled on a comfy saddle, it wasn't too bad.

rhm

I like where you're going with this. Let's strip it down to some basic inventions. What are they? Well, I won't list them all, but you're missing some good ones. For example:

--Riveted chain (like a bicycle chain). I don't know who made the first one. Leonardo of Vinci had technical drawings of them in his notebooks. Pretty useful for all kinds of mechanical devices, including bicycles.

--Cable in housing. (Invented by the guy who started Raleigh in the late 19th century, and crucial not only to bicycle brakes and gears, but also prosthetic limbs, airplanes, and any number of other mechanical devices invented after 1880 or so).

--pneumatic tires. (Invented by Mr. Dunlop, for... would you believe... bicycles? Indispensable for all kinds of wheeled conveyances invented since 1880 or so).

--epicyclic hubs. Okay, not indispensable, but pretty effin' cool. Better than derailleurs? Let's not get into a debate about it. Certainly as important, though.

--butted tubing. I'm not sure whether Reynolds invented this for bicycles or not, but it's cool technology, very useful, and not derivative in the least.

--paint. Yeah, sure, it wasn't invented for bicycles, but where would we be without it?


Well, whatever! Bicycles use a lot of clever ideas, many of which were developed specifically for bicycles, many of which were not. And we have ol' Tullio to thank for some minor tweaks.

iab

Slightly better retention is ground breaking? I don't have reach down to levers when I use my Ergos. Again, not groundbreaking.

And while I will say it is a well-engineered snap, it is still just a snap.

Chrome Molly

In my estimation, there have been plenty of inventions, but fewer killer applications of those inventions that we all now "must have" to be a modern cyclist. You can fill in the list.

As in the auto industry, most of it is refinement and modest departures from the original concepts over time. Drive a car from a hundred years ago, vs a car from today. The basics are still there, engine, wheels, seat, steering. However, the combined package is worlds apart.

Each era is appealing in a unique way, same draw as C&V bikes to many here, as the unwinding of the iterative refinements brings one back to the core spirit of cycling. In the case of C&V bikes, there seems to be an age point where one sheds the social boundaries of todays bike shop interlopers and is simply off doing their own thing with props from nearly everyone who passes by. That's what I like about riding the older bikes in my fleet (which aren't old by many here's standards).

As to Campy and what I dislike about them, they've become a refiner of others' ideas instead of ground breakers. That's still fine since the refinements are often additive to the modern biking experience, but I doubt that their modern stuff will bring the same king's ransom 30 years from now. I'll be buying the stuff, since the thought of having a battery to run my shifting is abhorrent. Today, they just use their company history to command mid-high market prices for stuff that really doesn't offer much functional advantage vs the other players out there.

Michael Angelo 

What I like about campagnolo??? It's not shimano.....

rootboy 

What's not to like?

puckett129

I'd love to see pics of this.

kaliayev

What do I see? Nothing. Not impressed at all by it's function, looks, or rep. Easy to say Campy components will never see daylight on one of my bikes.

Michael Angelo 

I think Dura Ace looks ok.