I hope CDM will not mind me quoting him regarding the Fignon mythology:

"This is absolutely not true and is revisionist at best. The Fignon incident took place in 1982, the Super Record BB and pedals (i.e. those with titanium axles) continued to be sold for many years beyond this (the BB at least until the introduction of C-Record and the pedals even alongside the C-Record components for at least 2 years). So, Campagnolo did NOT make ANY changes whatsoever relating to the incident. Indeed, Campagnolo even used the titanium axled pedals in their iconic 50th anniversary gruppo in 1983 (hence not that long after the Fignon incident). The Super Record BB and pedals (as opposed to the Nuovo Record BB and Superleggeri pedals) continued to be the highest cost option for these respective parts (when the C-Record pedals came out, the Super Record continued to be offered at a supplement of close to 40%). Campagnolo did not decide it was too fragile for competition, nor that it was too fragile period. To say so is simply wrong and misleading. The truth of the matter is that the Super Record pedals cost an approximate 85 % supplement over the cost of the Nuovo Record superleggeri pedals (according to the 1986 Italian price list that I have) and the Super Record BB cost more than double the price of the Nuovo Record BB (according to the 1984 German price list). These price differences were the factor that limited their availability. Add to this that it was known since day one in the 70's (hence way before the Fignon incident) and readily discussed by Campagnolo itself that the titanium BB's were more flexible and perhaps less durable, and you have a severely limited market for these parts. Your contention that Campagnolo came out with a "Steel Super Record gruppo" in response to the Fignon incident is therefore totally baseless and wrong. In their price lists, Campagnolo offered all components individually as well as in "gruppi" [groups in English] and "sottogruppi" [sub-groups in English]. The price list clearly detailed what was included in each gruppo. In the 1986 price list, there are in fact 5 different C-Record gruppi, 2 different Super Record gruppi, 2 Nuovo Record gruppi, 2 Victory gruppi, 2 Gran Sport gruppi, and 2 Triomphe gruppi. After the listing of all of the various gruppi there is a note to the effect: Please note: when not ordering the complete gruppo, the prices of each single component will be applied. This section is then followed by numerous sottogruppi that packaged various selections of components under the headings "dearilleurs", "hubs", "chainsets", "BB's", "headsets", "pedals", "toe clips", "seatposts", "brakes", freewheels" and "rims". This section is then followed by single components or parts. The oldest price list that I have seen that included Super Record components (from 1977 or 1978) shows two distinct Super Record road gruppi and two distinct Super Record track gruppi. Component-wise, the two Super Record road gruppi differ in the BB and the pedals. Price-wise, there is a 20% discount if you were to forego the 75 gram savings given by the Super Record BB and Super Record pedals over the steel BB and Nuovo Record superleggeri pedals. Furthermore, the Fignon incident did not get overly much media coverage at the time of the incident. Most news outlets simply stated that he had broken his BB axle, with absolutely no mention of either the brand or the model. I would love to find out what the first mention in the press of it having been a titanium Campagnolo BB."

Whatever.... I'm sure it always took quite a bit of time to exorcise Ti weenieness out of a company and I think that's why the transition away from it was not so instant. Anyway, the lag might have been just caused by the problem of what to do with designs and tooling that are already set to go on line, plus the stocks of Ti material and parts they might have already been fabricating that they have to sell. In the end, Campy still put Ti weenieness in their designs in the back burner when they hit the late 80's and early 90's....

Now this thread is pretty interesting. Confusing, but interesting. You guys have me curious now, about mine. I remember my Record hubs are from the early to mid '80s, because I removed the locknuts to check, but that was awhile ago, & I forget now WHICH year. I'm also curious about skewer levers too now, LOL, but I suspect these particular hubs are "generic" Record, nothing to get excited about. But I'm a little concerned about my BB now.

I was away from bikes a bit from late 1979 to 1984. Somewhere in there Campagnolo did redesign the Super Record Bottom bracket spindle, going from a hollow unit that used the longstanding bolts to a solid unit that used steel nuts. I don't know when that change happened. the redesigned spindle was stiffer, but the cost as noted above in the quote above was the big factor in keeping the steel parts in demand. A few clients bought the super Record pedals and came back to exchange them when they got knee pain, retuning to the steel spindle pedals solved their problem. Why Campagnolo kept the same profile for both parts alludes me, just retaining that little bit more diameter at the root of the pedal would have stiffened them up considerably.
For a brief period (1979 patent date is seen most often) there was a lighter Super Record rear derailleur, Campagnolo went to aluminum alloy pivot bolts due to price and or delivery problems with ti.

The C-Record parts we first received used a steel spindle too, just the Super Record aluminum cups and required the smaller diameter bearings for reference.

Without re-posting that awesome but huge pic, I thought I'd comment, on your comment, & add another (blurry) pic or 2. I have that first version of levers, with "LOCKED" and the script Campagnolo logo. And I grabbed a couple pics just now, because otherwise it didn't happen. I haven't looked since right after I got these, so I'm only close on vintage, but it was definitely early '80s, like '82 or '84. EDIT: Doh, I'm an idjit sometimes, I was looking backwards. Mine are the newest, not oldest, LOL, but they still work great.

If you have the later, solid model I wouldn't worry about it. I've run one of these for years and have had zero issues.

Ever since I came across a flawed first-gen TI spindle (the borings from either end didn't meet flush in the middle during manufacture, resulting in a stress riser in the center of the spindle) I've wondered if something similar was the case with the other failures. Maybe it was just a bad batch. Mine came from Deeside Cycles in the UK and was dead stock; alloy cups/TI spindle. I rode it for a year or more before noticing the flaw during a BB service.

Don't know enough to comment on the rest, but I wouldn't be confident enough in the hollow spindle to use it. Solid, yes.

DD

Spacemanz, that is exactly what I have (although I can't confirm the skewer counter nut) but my is virgin. I never did get around to building a wheel on it but I have a 28 hole Mavic GEL 280 for it. In ~1988 it was in the Nashbar or PBS catalog as Super Record.
BTW, the rear is on the bike now (Mavic GL 330, 32 hole/3 cross).



~Monkey~

There was also the fact that Campy did not emerge in 1975 with a complete Super Record Gruppo. repechage can correct me here, but with the exception of alloy brake pad holders, the SR brakes were Nuovo Record until around 1982? when Campagnolo released the SR specific Brakes. This was also the fact with the SR front derailleur. Again Campy used their Nuovo Record front derailleur until later (1982?) they black anodized some linkage parts to match the black anodized rear SR derailleur. However, I understand that the front anodized SR derailleur was not widely available and only sold if one bought the entire gruppo. During this time, Campy continued to sell the NR front derailleur as SR, so the anodized version was quite rare for a while. This another reason some sellers sell NR front derailleurs and brake calipers as SR.

^ Super Record brakes also differed in that the levers had holes (or drillings if you prefer) - NR levers did not. Holes in the levers go back to at least '75. Anyone have a catalog showing where they first appeared?

When you say Campy continued to see the NR FD as SR, what do you mean exactly? My understanding is that other than the black anodizing and holes in the outer plate, the derailleurs were the same. Sure, later models sported a smaller band, but that feature appeared on both models.

DD

There were a few SR FD's, all silver with holes in outer cage plate, these preceeded the black version. But perusing ebay listings there's reference that Campy didn't have a specific FD in it's earliest groups and that there wasn't a specific FD until '78. And yes, I have seen blue Super Record hub boxes.

My take on the hubs is this...it's symmantics. 'Record' hubs were used in 'Record', 'Nuovo' and 'Super' groups. Same hubs in different groups.

^ Yeah, I just call them Record hubs. As for the FDs, interesting info. The only non-black-anodized SR FD version I was familiar with was the version (same with the RD) in the 50th Anniversary gruppo.

DD

I think the 4 holes is the giveaway that its SR....

How so, Jim? I thought to be considered a Super Record, it had to sport the black arms.

It's a little fuzzy around the CPSC change over.

Amongst CPCS FD's with the outer cage lip this is my understanding:

4 hole with silver arm = SR
4 hole with black arm = SR

3 hole with black arm = SR
3 hole with silver arm = NR

Thanks Jim,

I have one of those 4-holers, but always assumed it was NR.

The initial Super Record "gruppo" was of course a mix of parts. The SR brakes only had the pierced levers, the calipers were the same as Record, and soon available in the piccolo reach. (the very earliest set I saw of the short reach brakes used the barrel adjuster that I did not see again until the G.S. calipers later, no "O" ring- just a knurled adjuster wheel, On a full tilt DeRosa from Talbot's Cyclery) The aluminum pad holders did not arrive for quite a while, and I think were a cost savings measure more than a weight savings issue, I am not sure on the date of intro, but by 1985 they were standard.
On the front derailleur the initial release did use the Record front changer. It shows that way in the 17 and 17a catalog too. The catalogs list the Record front changer as part of the Super Record group, but its official name remained Record. The Pierced cage design, 4 holes then quickly revised to 3 was in conjunction with the CPSC changes and shows up the as the Record changer too. Later, they did black anodize the arms. In 1985 as part of building back up my old race bike I wanted a Record front but in the box was a unit with black arms in a pale yellow box. Go figure.

Keep in mind that Campagnolo did not use model years, and numbered their catalogs independent of date, they usually were produced as collateral in conjunction with a major trade show. The individual model names and the group names are independent. Bike shops and bicycle brand managers in an effort to be simple and clear in their communication took a shorthand approach to naming things.

Campagnolo could have done a better job naming their products but sophisticated marketing was not their thing back then. I would have changed the name of the Record crank set to Nuovo Record when the bolt hole circle was revised to 144 from 151 as an example. No such luck for us.

Catalog 17 (1973) already shows the perforated lever blades:

https://www.campyonly.com/history/1974/super_record.pdf

Oh thank god I have Dia Compe Royal Gran brakes on that bike. This is getting VERY confusing.
And the hu8bs are the only Super Record components I bought (there were sold as SR, not NR or Record).
D Derailleurs are C-Record, cranks are Chorus (1st Gen.), headset and seat post (25mm, aero cross section) as also Chorus. All of which are 1988. If you want/need any evidence of what was shipping that year, let me know. I'll start charging the good camera. But do it soon - I plan to be flying to AZ soon for work.

As I've said, I'm going to build a new machine to get away from this vintage hardware that is extremely confusing, and increasingly problematic to maintain. But should I get the Super Record, Super Record 80th, or Super Record EPS group... Oops, I've said too much.

~Dizzy Monkey~

The old stuff is pretty darn straightforward to maintain. Super Record 80th is selling at deep discount right now. I would go current Record unless you HAVE to have the ti extras. As to EPS, cool, but you just stated you want it simple and Campagnolo to my knowledge does not have a configurement for Running EPS on a steel frame, or any frame w/o electronic internal routing yet. Actually I am waiting for Athena EPS for my son, he will benefit from the "push button shifting", For him I plan to use the TT remote buttons.

As far as the older stuff.
The big issue right now is getting my freewheel fixed. LBS has basically refused to look at it. I talked to another guy who really did not seem to be very happy about being a bicycle mechanic (hey I didn't make him choose that line of work). But at least he would look at it. So my all of my rear wheels are useless at this point. The only replacements are the Sun Race free wheels which are no where near the quality of my Regina American Superleggera (eBay isn't much help - a quick check had that freewheel in the $450 range). Sun Race doesn't offer the same gearing. I can't cold set or spring that frame, so I'm locked into 126MM rear hubs. So my options are limited.
I can easily maintain what I have, but normal wear and tear will eventually lead to more of these issues, and I really don't have the time and energy to try hunting down what I would need keep that machine up to the standards to which it was built.

As far as EPS, I am only looking at frames with internal routing. I like the idea. Not sure if I'm really comfortable with electronic control. And with my luck, the year after I install EPS, they will come out with a version that connects via BlueTooth and not hardwired.
But that's all academic at this point.

Speaking of EPS, is it possible to connect both brifter *and* TT bar end controllers on the same machine? I would think it pretty easy to hack up some Y cables to make the connections, but I'm not sure if this is compatible with the EPS "Brain". Campy's literature on the EPS is dripping with CYA, so I'm a bit hesitant to go DIY on EPS.

~Monkey~ <ducks for cover as he is user this is only going to open another can of Campy silliness>

If it is a Regina America Superleggera or nothing, then abandon C&V. There are alternatives in function, Everest for one, others like Suntour (the Ultra series) or the late Shimano DuraAce freewheels. Most bike shops way back were feign to repair a freewheel, today where spare cogs or internal spare parts are not readily orderable and there is little hope of a repair. If you are not flexible in your requirements, then sell it off and be happy with the Modern stuff.

Sad, but true. We may have opened up a confusing can of worms in this thread, but the truth is there are just tons of options available from back in the day - and a lot of those options had their own quirks and idiosyncrasies.

I personally gave up on Regina SL freewheels (after cracking two cogs) as just not strong enough. If you want a reliable alloy freewheel, go with Campy (but be prepared to pay for the privilege). Everest Novas in aluminum are a good choice, too, and bargains can be had.

Better yet, take a weight penalty (let's face it, how many of we geriatrics here can honestly be concerned with the difference a few grams will save us over the course of a ride?) and go with a steel Regina, Sun-Tour or similar freewheel. You can find all sorts of various tooth counts on Ebay.

There are lots of options out there that can keep that vintage bike running well beyond the point where you stop

DD

Honestly, I'm not familiar with Everest. My locals didn't even mention these as an alternative, only the Sun Race.
As far as eBay - I'm over the whole eBay thing. Before they became a house hold name, it was a great place to shop. Once they became a big name, it's gone down hill. I don't want to be in a situation where I have to troll the bay for pieces and parts if I don't have to. Living on the east coast and working on the west coast as I am now complicates eBay shopping. With the flakey turn around times from some eBay sellers, shipping policies, return issues, and then having the potential situation of shipping or loading items into checked baggage.
Sun Race seems to be the only option to buy new off the shelf free wheels now. And who knows how much longer they will be making new stock.

My Regina is in good condition, except that it slips - I think it needs new pawls. The bike was built with the Regina and I would prefer to keep it that way (although I know that may not be practical).

I'm willing to put up with what I have to to get both machines back to riding condition (the Peugoet will be dedicated to the wind trainer). Even if this means poking around on eBay and Craig's List. But them I'm done with the bay. The Vitus I will ride now and again, but since I'm pushing the advisable weight limit for that frame now, I don't want it to be my regular.

So I'll get everything back to where is was originally intended. But I want my regular ride to be up to modern standards.
This plan is still up in the air, especially if some of the contracts in the works go through. Currently I travel between Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Georgia, and Arizona. I may be adding St. Louis, Hong Kong, Japan, India and/or England to the mix. I've already had to give up my musical hobby, and may not even be able to get back to riding at all.

~Monkey~

What's wrong with it? A few of us here are very adept at freewheel maintenance and a few of use have boat loads of spare freewheels. If you SuperLeggera is skipping my recommendation is a non-alloy Regina or Dura Ace, both are readily available and will last much longer than an alloy freewheel.

EDIT: slipping pawls.....on the wheel

1. Flush freewheel out from the front side. Spray with liberal amounts of WD40, spin, let sit and spray again. Repeat this process until the effluent out the back has the same color and turbitity? as that going in. Let it sit overnight so it all drains out.

2. WD40 is not a lubricant. So now you need to lubricate it. I use chain lube, sometimes heavy motor oil, everyone has their own secret formula. Lube it liberally, enough to flush all the WD40 out.

3. That should take care of the sticking pawls.

Off the wheel:

1. Place freewheel in ultrasonic cleaner with some dawn dish soap...run a few cycle, then follow above steps. In lieu of an ultra sonic cleaner soak in blistering hot water/w detergent for 15 minutes.

I can rebuild it...pastorbob can rebuild it...

The reason your LBS didn't mention any of the other available freewheels is they are not in production any more. So they don't stock them! Find them on ebay, they are common, reasonably priced (for non-alloy), and get back on your bike.