View on disc brakes
09-12-15, 05:35 PM
#51
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09-12-15, 06:15 PM
#52
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What's difficult to understand is why some people can't understand the difference between saying different types of brakes work sufficiently well, and saying there are discernible differences in the way they perform.
So again, in any one person's world, their sidepulls, cantis, Vs, or discs might work sufficiently well for their needs. Whoopee...who cares? Because in the rest of the world, there are conditions that impact not only the function of the brakes, but the users perception of how good they feel to use, their ease of maintenance, and their value.
If you think cantis work as well as discs in the cold, snow, wet, and mud, you are a fool or a liar. If you think that having rim brakes grind away at your sidewalls, throwing nasty, black grime from wet rides, having pads come out of alignment compromising performance or scuffing your wheel or tire graphics, or needing to remember to reset your brakes after wheel removal, needing readjust your brakes for pad wear or changes, and needing wrenches for most common issues are all minor, and even fun stuff to deal with, go do your thing, dude, but a lot of people are not impressed by your definition of "just as good."
I don't have particular troubles with my sidepulls or Vs, either, but there's no doubt that if cost and weight issues were removed from the equation, that I'd run discs because they're better and allow more options in terms of rim material, design, and finish. As I used as an example before, I'm interested in deep section carbon rims, but worried about rim brake performance. Disc brake carbon deep section erases that concern and opens up the possibility of all carbon for me.
So again, in any one person's world, their sidepulls, cantis, Vs, or discs might work sufficiently well for their needs. Whoopee...who cares? Because in the rest of the world, there are conditions that impact not only the function of the brakes, but the users perception of how good they feel to use, their ease of maintenance, and their value.
If you think cantis work as well as discs in the cold, snow, wet, and mud, you are a fool or a liar. If you think that having rim brakes grind away at your sidewalls, throwing nasty, black grime from wet rides, having pads come out of alignment compromising performance or scuffing your wheel or tire graphics, or needing to remember to reset your brakes after wheel removal, needing readjust your brakes for pad wear or changes, and needing wrenches for most common issues are all minor, and even fun stuff to deal with, go do your thing, dude, but a lot of people are not impressed by your definition of "just as good."
I don't have particular troubles with my sidepulls or Vs, either, but there's no doubt that if cost and weight issues were removed from the equation, that I'd run discs because they're better and allow more options in terms of rim material, design, and finish. As I used as an example before, I'm interested in deep section carbon rims, but worried about rim brake performance. Disc brake carbon deep section erases that concern and opens up the possibility of all carbon for me.
Just because some of us don't agree that disc brakes are like night and day like you seem to feel they are, doesn't make us fools or liars. Those are strong words, got anything to back them up? I've used cantilever brakes and linear brakes for far more cold, wet, snow, ice, mud, sand, stream crossing, fast wet downhills on-road and off- for many more years than I've used discs. I tour on a bike with cantilevers. I have mountain biked with cantilevers. I've done 50 mph downhills off the Smoke Mountains with a touring load in a driving rain and stopped just fine, in fact better than "just fine", thank you very much. I stopped when and where I needed to and no hub mounted disc could have performed any better.
I even had icy rides where the disc has failed to stop entirely which is not something I've every experienced with rim brakes.
I am fully capable of assessing whether or not brakes work not only sufficiently but exactly the same as any other brake and, again, I find no difference between disc and hubs in effectiveness nor, for the matter, in cleanliness. While a minuscule amount of the crap that is thrown onto your bike during wet rides comes from the brakes, most of it comes from the road and not brake is going to keep your bike clean in wet weather.
And if you have to "reset your brakes after a wheel removal" you are doing something wrong. Another newsflash, disc pads need to be adjustment for wear just as well.
Frankly, I'm not sure that there are a whole lot of people impressed by your definition of "superior".
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
09-12-15, 11:58 PM
#53
Senior Member
My mtn bike has them and I wish my hybrid and cruiser had them, they are awesome. Once I taco'd my front rim while mtn biking on mile 4 of a 17 mile ride, I stood on one side, my buddy stood on the other, "straightened" the rim (wobbled like heck but it didn't rub on the fork!) and finished the ride!
I think for heavier people especially if you like going up hills and bombing down, they are priceless. I've never experienced it, but I've heard rim brakes can overheat the rims and blow out a tire, not sure if it's an urban legend or truth!
I think for heavier people especially if you like going up hills and bombing down, they are priceless. I've never experienced it, but I've heard rim brakes can overheat the rims and blow out a tire, not sure if it's an urban legend or truth!
09-13-15, 12:26 AM
#54
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Wow. Somebody ate his Grumpies recently.
Just because some of us don't agree that disc brakes are like night and day like you seem to feel they are, doesn't make us fools or liars. Those are strong words, got anything to back them up? I've used cantilever brakes and linear brakes for far more cold, wet, snow, ice, mud, sand, stream crossing, fast wet downhills on-road and off- for many more years than I've used discs. I tour on a bike with cantilevers. I have mountain biked with cantilevers. I've done 50 mph downhills off the Smoke Mountains with a touring load in a driving rain and stopped just fine, in fact better than "just fine", thank you very much. I stopped when and where I needed to and no hub mounted disc could have performed any better.
I even had icy rides where the disc has failed to stop entirely which is not something I've every experienced with rim brakes.
I am fully capable of assessing whether or not brakes work not only sufficiently but exactly the same as any other brake and, again, I find no difference between disc and hubs in effectiveness nor, for the matter, in cleanliness. While a minuscule amount of the crap that is thrown onto your bike during wet rides comes from the brakes, most of it comes from the road and not brake is going to keep your bike clean in wet weather.
And if you have to "reset your brakes after a wheel removal" you are doing something wrong. Another newsflash, disc pads need to be adjustment for wear just as well.
Frankly, I'm not sure that there are a whole lot of people impressed by your definition of "superior".
Just because some of us don't agree that disc brakes are like night and day like you seem to feel they are, doesn't make us fools or liars. Those are strong words, got anything to back them up? I've used cantilever brakes and linear brakes for far more cold, wet, snow, ice, mud, sand, stream crossing, fast wet downhills on-road and off- for many more years than I've used discs. I tour on a bike with cantilevers. I have mountain biked with cantilevers. I've done 50 mph downhills off the Smoke Mountains with a touring load in a driving rain and stopped just fine, in fact better than "just fine", thank you very much. I stopped when and where I needed to and no hub mounted disc could have performed any better.
I even had icy rides where the disc has failed to stop entirely which is not something I've every experienced with rim brakes.
I am fully capable of assessing whether or not brakes work not only sufficiently but exactly the same as any other brake and, again, I find no difference between disc and hubs in effectiveness nor, for the matter, in cleanliness. While a minuscule amount of the crap that is thrown onto your bike during wet rides comes from the brakes, most of it comes from the road and not brake is going to keep your bike clean in wet weather.
And if you have to "reset your brakes after a wheel removal" you are doing something wrong. Another newsflash, disc pads need to be adjustment for wear just as well.
Frankly, I'm not sure that there are a whole lot of people impressed by your definition of "superior".
09-13-15, 04:18 AM
#55
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My own current experience is riding a Raleigh All Mountain Talus with Shimano hydraulic disc brakes and a vintage Schwinn Premis with stocker rim brakes. Road riding comparison only.
The rolling weight (me, bike and stuff) is well into the 250 lb range and I’ve ridden both bikes on the same courses; some with very steep, twisty and long downhills.
The long downhills are where the discs work best for me. I really like the discs.
If I had to choose a brake system that would stop me in an emergency situation, I’d pick the discs.
In all fairness, I’ve read that the stock Premis brakes are not all that great and would benefit from a brake pad replacement. My recollection from riding a Club Fuji in the 80’s and 90’s, at a much lighter weight and stronger pace, is that the new discs are better.
I like the simplicity of the rim brakes but I have never had to service the discs (many years) other than easy to replace pads. I’m sure my weight has something to do with brake performance and maybe the extra weight of a large frame bike (I’m 6’4”). I occasionally kick around buying a new road bike and if I do, it will have discs.
The rolling weight (me, bike and stuff) is well into the 250 lb range and I’ve ridden both bikes on the same courses; some with very steep, twisty and long downhills.
The long downhills are where the discs work best for me. I really like the discs.
If I had to choose a brake system that would stop me in an emergency situation, I’d pick the discs.
In all fairness, I’ve read that the stock Premis brakes are not all that great and would benefit from a brake pad replacement. My recollection from riding a Club Fuji in the 80’s and 90’s, at a much lighter weight and stronger pace, is that the new discs are better.
I like the simplicity of the rim brakes but I have never had to service the discs (many years) other than easy to replace pads. I’m sure my weight has something to do with brake performance and maybe the extra weight of a large frame bike (I’m 6’4”). I occasionally kick around buying a new road bike and if I do, it will have discs.
09-13-15, 05:21 AM
#56
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I assure you that I am a serious person and that I'm not a fool. I can disagree with you without being disagreeable but you just can't seem to do the same. Calling people names doesn't strenghten your argument.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 09-13-15 at 05:29 AM.
09-13-15, 06:33 AM
#57
Senior Member
My experience with disc brakes is very limited as My first bike with disc brakes arrived Friday . A gravity deadeye monster fatbike. I took it out for it's first real ride yesterday . I left after a hard rain had just finished. I had run through a couple areas of standing water and headed down a hill . At the bottom the hill going close to 20mph there was a D.A. with a dog on an extendable leash
with all the water I got on the brakes hard, disc brakes combined with 4 in wide tires stop 310 lb hillbillies really well
I all most threw myself over the handle bars. By the way if you hit hickory nuts just right with those big tires you can shoot them at passing roadies
Roy
with all the water I got on the brakes hard, disc brakes combined with 4 in wide tires stop 310 lb hillbillies really well I all most threw myself over the handle bars. By the way if you hit hickory nuts just right with those big tires you can shoot them at passing roadiesRoy
10-04-15, 07:15 PM
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Here is the new bike
Dont know what happened with the pic,but thats the bike.
Dont know what happened with the pic,but thats the bike.
Last edited by kato12; 10-04-15 at 07:18 PM.
10-05-15, 01:48 AM
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For the Canti vs Linear pull (V-brake) vs disc; nothing wrong with Canti brakes, if you can set them up well, which can be an art, for most of us, Linear Pull brakes solved this setup issue (I got M737's as soon as they came out back in 1996, so much easier than Canti brakes, then came discs, which although have been around in the current format since the early 90's really have only got it perfected with the latest generation of brakes, previously, there were always performance, or maintenance issue with you had to be aware of, but with the latest brakes, from Shimano M785 and Avid Guide, they now are pretty much fit and forget
10-05-15, 04:09 PM
#60
Junior Member
My (recently stolen) Specialized Elite Disc Pro had BB5 disc brakes. They were decent enough compared to the Schwinn cantilever cheapy bike I had before. The BB5 is fixed, so you have to manually adjust the inner pad every so often. They were nice in that they worked fine in wet/nasty conditions.
As noted, that bike got stolen 3 weeks ago (1 week before a big charity ride, the whole reason I started biking 3 years ago). In shopping for a new bike, there just isn't a whole lot sitting in stock in 61-63CM sizes and I was in a time crunch big time. If I was stuck buying a new bike, I also wanted to upgrade. I ended up riding a Scott CR1-10 with Ultegra rim brakes - before the test ride, the guy said you might not like these brakes...but it was the opposite - they are a lot better than the discs ever were on the former bike. I could not lock the wheels on the old bike and can easily on the Scott.
I don't know enough to draw too much of a conclusion here. I know that BB5 are absolute low end mechanical discs and (presumably( Ultegra Caliper brakes are high (er) end. Particular to the Scott frame, tire clearance is tight and most disc brake models I looked at in other brands had much more flexibility in tire size which would be very important to a clyde.
I don't really plan on buying another bike for a while, but if/when I do, I would lean towards disc, but only if better than BB5.
DaveW
As noted, that bike got stolen 3 weeks ago (1 week before a big charity ride, the whole reason I started biking 3 years ago). In shopping for a new bike, there just isn't a whole lot sitting in stock in 61-63CM sizes and I was in a time crunch big time. If I was stuck buying a new bike, I also wanted to upgrade. I ended up riding a Scott CR1-10 with Ultegra rim brakes - before the test ride, the guy said you might not like these brakes...but it was the opposite - they are a lot better than the discs ever were on the former bike. I could not lock the wheels on the old bike and can easily on the Scott.
I don't know enough to draw too much of a conclusion here. I know that BB5 are absolute low end mechanical discs and (presumably( Ultegra Caliper brakes are high (er) end. Particular to the Scott frame, tire clearance is tight and most disc brake models I looked at in other brands had much more flexibility in tire size which would be very important to a clyde.
I don't really plan on buying another bike for a while, but if/when I do, I would lean towards disc, but only if better than BB5.
DaveW
10-05-15, 08:34 PM
#61
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My (recently stolen) Specialized Elite Disc Pro had BB5 disc brakes. They were decent enough compared to the Schwinn cantilever cheapy bike I had before. The BB5 is fixed, so you have to manually adjust the inner pad every so often. They were nice in that they worked fine in wet/nasty conditions.
As noted, that bike got stolen 3 weeks ago (1 week before a big charity ride, the whole reason I started biking 3 years ago). In shopping for a new bike, there just isn't a whole lot sitting in stock in 61-63CM sizes and I was in a time crunch big time. If I was stuck buying a new bike, I also wanted to upgrade. I ended up riding a Scott CR1-10 with Ultegra rim brakes - before the test ride, the guy said you might not like these brakes...but it was the opposite - they are a lot better than the discs ever were on the former bike. I could not lock the wheels on the old bike and can easily on the Scott.
I don't know enough to draw too much of a conclusion here. I know that BB5 are absolute low end mechanical discs and (presumably( Ultegra Caliper brakes are high (er) end. Particular to the Scott frame, tire clearance is tight and most disc brake models I looked at in other brands had much more flexibility in tire size which would be very important to a clyde.
I don't really plan on buying another bike for a while, but if/when I do, I would lean towards disc, but only if better than BB5.
DaveW
As noted, that bike got stolen 3 weeks ago (1 week before a big charity ride, the whole reason I started biking 3 years ago). In shopping for a new bike, there just isn't a whole lot sitting in stock in 61-63CM sizes and I was in a time crunch big time. If I was stuck buying a new bike, I also wanted to upgrade. I ended up riding a Scott CR1-10 with Ultegra rim brakes - before the test ride, the guy said you might not like these brakes...but it was the opposite - they are a lot better than the discs ever were on the former bike. I could not lock the wheels on the old bike and can easily on the Scott.
I don't know enough to draw too much of a conclusion here. I know that BB5 are absolute low end mechanical discs and (presumably( Ultegra Caliper brakes are high (er) end. Particular to the Scott frame, tire clearance is tight and most disc brake models I looked at in other brands had much more flexibility in tire size which would be very important to a clyde.
I don't really plan on buying another bike for a while, but if/when I do, I would lean towards disc, but only if better than BB5.
DaveW
BB5s are trash.
10-05-15, 09:11 PM
#62
Senior Member
J.
10-06-15, 07:52 AM
#63
Senior Member
I just purchased a new frame that is disc capable. I wanted it for the additional stopping power, especially on lengthy descents where I've become 'chicken' in my old age and afraid of heat/fade with rim brakes. The only concern I have is that I won't be able to adjust and maintain them easily.
10-06-15, 08:15 AM
#64
Senior Member
For me and how I ride discs, rule. I mt bike year round, think snow, ice and slush. Giant man going way too fast down steep descents off road, yup discs work well. Commuting has those weather issues as well. No rims to grind away( 3 so far) or black ground up stuff to clean. While for some people in some areas, V's and canti's might work just as well. Discs are far superior for those 10% of worst case situations. Like mud, wet grass, slush etc. For those of you in FL and CA, you need not apply. Sunny and dry anyone? But now the case is mostly closed, how soon before EVERY bike comes with disc brakes? It has happened with mt bikes, ( awesome). Not even a discussion for fat bikes. Road and 'cross bikes are all ready there. I can't imaging running anything but disc where it rains all the time, say the PNW or England. Maybe some riders will take off their disc brakes, get some fittings brazed on and use some awesome v, canti whatever brakes. Or maybe some riders will just have to embrace the new technology for once. I'm now going to check my e-mail on AOL and watch Dukes of Hazard on my Betamax.
10-06-15, 01:56 PM
#66
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Bicycles have had "disc" brakes for many, many years. As long as a bike has rim brakes, it already has disc brakes. It's just a larger rotor. The principle is the same and the mechanism is similar enough to be the same. The only difference is that a hub mounted disc brake has to be set up the way rim brakes should be set up, i.e. close to the rotor and with very little lever movement from off to on. Most rim brakes have been set up so that the lever is half way to the bars before the brakes actuate. You can set up hub mounted discs the same way and they are even worse than the worst rim brake imaginable.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
10-06-15, 07:03 PM
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Bicycles have had "disc" brakes for many, many years. As long as a bike has rim brakes, it already has disc brakes. It's just a larger rotor. The principle is the same and the mechanism is similar enough to be the same. The only difference is that a hub mounted disc brake has to be set up the way rim brakes should be set up, i.e. close to the rotor and with very little lever movement from off to on. Most rim brakes have been set up so that the lever is half way to the bars before the brakes actuate. You can set up hub mounted discs the same way and they are even worse than the worst rim brake imaginable.
10-06-15, 07:15 PM
#68
Non omnino gravis
One certain plus point for my disc brakes-- when it rains here in SoCal (which is not often) the Santa Ana River Trail gets covered in a super-fine, sticky, slippery, silty glop that will coat your entire bike in a creamy beige. It makes a wonderful sound as your tires vacuum it up off the ground and sling it everywhere. And tires just cut through it-- imagine riding into a 2" deep, 20-foot long pool of peanut butter... then repeating that action 50 times. I saw three guys on the side of the trail this morning, scraping their brake tracks clean with a stick. Woo hoo, disc brakes!
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10-08-15, 06:57 AM
#70
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I love the disc brakes on my e-bike commuter. I replaced cantilevers with discs. It made a huge difference. However, I'm perfectly satisfied with calipers on my road bike (it's 30 lbs lighter than my e-bike.)
10-08-15, 02:35 PM
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Bicycles have had "disc" brakes for many, many years. As long as a bike has rim brakes, it already has disc brakes. It's just a larger rotor. The principle is the same and the mechanism is similar enough to be the same. The only difference is that a hub mounted disc brake has to be set up the way rim brakes should be set up, i.e. close to the rotor and with very little lever movement from off to on. Most rim brakes have been set up so that the lever is half way to the bars before the brakes actuate. You can set up hub mounted discs the same way and they are even worse than the worst rim brake imaginable.
I for one love my disc brakes and would never willingly go back to rim brakes. I recently purchased a hybrid bike and my #1 must have item was hydraulic disc brakes. If the bike didn't come with them, I didn't even bother to consider it.
10-08-15, 03:46 PM
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@cyccommute, 2 statements you made are inaccurate. 1, the hydraulic system should be self adjusting for wear. 2, in comparing between rim brakes and "disc" brakes being both disc brakes.....the big difference is rigidity. The caliper on disc brakes will flex much less the calipers of a rim brake and the rim is far more likely to collapse than a solid steel disc. The hydraulic system likely generates far more power and the disc brake system will be much more efficient at transferring power into stopping power.
Another factor I don't have the math knowledge to calculate is how much advantage the leverage of being so far from center give rim brakes over a 160-180mm disc. That's the only advantage I could see rim brakes having.
Bikes I've looked at, where comparing at a price, point seem to give up a lot in group level and in turn, weight to get disc brakes. I'd rather have a 105 equipped bike at 18.xx pounds that a Sora equipped bike at 20.xx pounds given the prices were about the same.
As far as opinions, it seems people who have disc brakes like them a lot better than those who don't yet.
Another factor I don't have the math knowledge to calculate is how much advantage the leverage of being so far from center give rim brakes over a 160-180mm disc. That's the only advantage I could see rim brakes having.
Bikes I've looked at, where comparing at a price, point seem to give up a lot in group level and in turn, weight to get disc brakes. I'd rather have a 105 equipped bike at 18.xx pounds that a Sora equipped bike at 20.xx pounds given the prices were about the same.
As far as opinions, it seems people who have disc brakes like them a lot better than those who don't yet.
10-08-15, 04:00 PM
#73
Junior Member
Bikes I've looked at, where comparing at a price, point seem to give up a lot in group level and in turn, weight to get disc brakes. I'd rather have a 105 equipped bike at 18.xx pounds that a Sora equipped bike at 20.xx pounds given the prices were about the same.
As far as opinions, it seems people who have disc brakes like them a lot better than those who don't yet.
DaveW
10-08-15, 04:33 PM
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Bicycles have had "disc" brakes for many, many years. As long as a bike has rim brakes, it already has disc brakes. It's just a larger rotor. The principle is the same and the mechanism is similar enough to be the same. The only difference is that a hub mounted disc brake has to be set up the way rim brakes should be set up, i.e. close to the rotor and with very little lever movement from off to on. Most rim brakes have been set up so that the lever is half way to the bars before the brakes actuate. You can set up hub mounted discs the same way and they are even worse than the worst rim brake imaginable.
I have a lot more lever travel now with my current setup, and perhaps an inch of space or so between the back of the back brifter paddle and front of the drops. This is definitely the sweet spot for me, yielding improvements in both modulation and braking power vs. the "pads right next to the rim" approach.
Utilizing a medium level of lever travel allows for far better leverage IME.
10-08-15, 04:42 PM
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People made this same argument when cars started changing over from drum brakes to disc brakes. It's ok, for some people change is a scary thing. You seem to be one of those people. Do you still have a flip phone too?
I for one love my disc brakes and would never willingly go back to rim brakes. I recently purchased a hybrid bike and my #1 must have item was hydraulic disc brakes. If the bike didn't come with them, I didn't even bother to consider it.
I for one love my disc brakes and would never willingly go back to rim brakes. I recently purchased a hybrid bike and my #1 must have item was hydraulic disc brakes. If the bike didn't come with them, I didn't even bother to consider it.
I think the giant defy 1 is already at that price point with 5800, but with mechanical tektro spyres.
Right now, there's too much variation in the quality of discs to say unequivocally that "discs are better." There are some really crappy disc brakes out there (such as bb5's among others), some which are very difficult to adjust or keep in adjustment (bb7's) and still quite a few mtb specific makes and models which squeal like the dickens.
Right now, the only company I trust to get it right is shimano. Shimano hydraulics or rim brakes for me.
Right now we are close to reaching the apex of dual pivot rim brake tech, and at the start of an upward arc of road bike disc brake tech. Keep in mind, dual pivots will continue to improve: shimano is encouraging a two bolt mounting system for their 6800 rim brakes which will increase caliper stiffness considerably.
Then the two bolt mounting system will trickle down and you'll be able to get pretty awesome rim brake performance at a very affordable price point.
What really sucks right now is that there aren't any good tests of rim brake vs. disc brake performance. GCN posted a "comparo test" but it was a joke. They used carbon rims rather than alu rims, when it's well known that carbon rims suck for braking.