Caincando1

Okay, that's why I asked for the clarification earlier. So it's 4 carbs to 1 protein? Okay that's a lot closer to what I've been doing.

Caincando1

That is true if you want to just lose weight. If you want to try and lose as much fat as possible and retain muscle than it's simply not true. If the body doens't get enough caloric energy then it will take it from the body itself weather that be fat, muscle, glycogen, etc. I truely believe that the compostion of the calories and when they are conusmed does have an affect on losing fat, versus losing over all body weight via canabalized muscle.

Air

I kept getting myself in this feedback loop.

On the school of thought where a calorie is a calorie and intake < burn in order to lose weight:

How much do you burn if you don't do anything? You can try one of those calculators but they're not that accurate. Let's say you normally burn 2500 calories in your normal day's activities. If you eat 2500 calories your weight will be stable. Use the analogy of a furnace. If the furnace burns hotter you'll need extra fuel in order to keep it functioning.

The idea about exercising first thing in the morning is that it's a way to raise your metabolism and get your body to burn hotter quicker. This means instead of 2500 calories you usually need you now are burning maybe 3000 or even 3500 calories a day. Even if you skip a day your body will still burn at close to that rate because you've trained it.

On the flip side when you drink alcohol your metabolism slows down. So even if you're taking in 150 calories with a shot of whiskey your overall metabolism may require only require 2200 calories. Just by counting the calories won't inform you what your body is requiring.

It is part 'gimmick' I suppose just like keeping the tire pressure up on your wheels is a gimmick to decrease rolling resistance and keep down the possibility of flats. You can still ride with low pressure but it works better when it's fully inflated

deraltekluge

That's another reason to exercise beyond the simple burning of calories...exercising lets your body know that it should keep the muscles and not just burn them to keep warm.

deraltekluge

So if it works even if you skip a day, it'll work no matter what time of the day you exercise. You're arguing against yourself.

Tom Stormcrowe

OK, deraltekluge, I suppose we're going to have to agree to disagree. That's fine with me, by the way. You have your beliefs and I have mine as to diet and exercise and metabolism. No worries

werewolf

I'm in the calories in-calories out school of thought and I think all the myriad theories and weight loss plans are all hooey and it just boils down to that. Also I think that rolling out of bed in the AM and immediately doing strenuous exercise is hard on the heart.

Air

A day - yes. And again using the tire analogy, you can ride on under inflated tires and it'll get you where you want to go but there's another way that's more effective.

Tom Stormcrowe

which is why I said to hold it down to cardio levels, as in moderate, and not a race pace. 65-70% Max HR at the highest and limited duration, just to ramp up the metabolism. I am NOT advocating going out and doing High intensity intervals or endurance rides on an empty tank It's simple physiology, a body operating at a higher metabolic rate is going to first take the carbs to restock muscle and liver glycogen and the protein to suppport and rebuild muscle tissue. It won't store to fat. You need to avoid binging afterwards as well, by the way. It's still calories in < Calories out, but you're also using a quirk of physiology to target the fat burn as much as possible.

Here's the deal. If you are depleted on muscle and liver glycogen, your body will go after protein and fat at about equal ratio to maintain homeostasis, or balance on your blood sugars. If you are eating within the 30-60 minutes after you've ramped up your metabolism, you are going to be in a recovery mode and restocking the glycogen first, with the carbs and the protein will go directly to supporting your muscle mass.

The end result is that while you are burning both fat AND protein to support the cellular metabolism rather than the Kreb Metabolism (or high energy sugar cycle, or citric acid cycle), with the protein support, it becomes a ratio of ~65-70% loss of fatty tissue: 30-35% muscle tissue rather than an ~ 50:50 loss type Protein:Fat. It's not a gimmick, it's just a factor in your metabolism that you can use as a tool to assist you. It's not magic, it's not a trick, it's just plain old fashioned scientific approach to maximize the effectiveness of your effort.

Air

And that's all everyone's saying. Will you lose weight by riding everyday after eating? Sure. But there's a way of using your __ amount of time more effectively.

werewolf

TS - You might be on to something. When I exercise moderately before breakfast, like cycling or hiking or swimming, I do tend to feel good.

steve2k

Yeah Tom, you might be on to something, maybe you should look into it, so far you've been a bit vague. I wish you would provide some facts instead of all this hocus pocus witchcraft you're advocating.

Seriously, thanks for taking the time to write these explanations Tom, they've certainly convinced me. So I'm going to stick with eating after I've cycled to work, the science makes sense to me.

Neil_B

Marginally more effective. I think the under-inflated tires analogy doesn't hold air, Air, simply because riding on under-inflated tires increases the chances of a pinch-flat and it's not recommended practice in most cases. I suggest a better analogy is changing pedals to save a few grams of weight. Yes, the bike is going to be a little lighter for doing so, and you might be marginally faster, but is it worth the trouble? Do it if you want to, but it hardly seems important enough to me. It's certainly not worth the extended discussion it's getting here.

fatkid70

Don't forget about the bacon sammiches

wrobertdavis

I bet if you ride 5 days/week at any time, vs. 4 days/week at an optimum time, you'll lose more weight with 5 days/week. Focus on exercising regularly and how much you eat. You can get more scientific and precise when you are training, as opposed to trying to lose weight. I lost 35 pounds by riding a bike when I felt like it and going however long I wanted to. I did it because it was fun and I enjoyed it. The weight came off steadily over a 1 year period. My daughter, who is a driven triathlete, was amazed at how many miles I did in one year.

Bob

Caincando1

I know everyone has their theorys but there is a lot of factual medical data to support what Tom and I are saying. I wish I had the time to go and dig a bunch of it up, but I don't.

WonderMonkey

It would come down to HOW more effective that four days is, if any. It would be interesting to find out. Recently (about a month ago) I started doing 40 minutes of exercise a day (work days) no matter what it was or what time of the day. I walk, bike, jog, etc. but 40 minutes. As you mention consistency is the goal. I chose 40 minutes because that is what I can get in on a slightly extended lunch hour with changing, cleaning up, etc.

I think for me to prove it to myself I'm going to have to ride in the morning for a week or so, then switch to a later time in the day. Not very scientific but maybe I can detect an acceleration in weight loss that is significant enough to convince me. Hell it might be that exercising first thing suppresses my appetite a bit for breakfast and THAT is what does it. No matter, as long as it does the trick.

WonderMonkey

To agree again..... being consistent and enjoying my time on the bike will help accomplish my goal. Any lost efficiencies due to timing of the ride will be offset by the fact I'm staying with it and so on.

Air

Like here?

WonderMonkey

I'll read through those. Thanks for the link.

Caincando1

Lots of good reading for everyone. Thanks for posting them.

Air

Anytime - I added this one to the section too.

Now if only I could follow all this great advice...

And related for the calories counters:
https://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=231402

Tom Stormcrowe

That's fine, and you're right for the most part.....

Don't sweat it if you follow your own path. We all have to do what WE feel comfortable with. If you're losing weight safely and not suffering any dietary deficiencies, you aren't doing anything wrong You might be able to optimize your loss a bit more, but if you're happy, I'm happy.

knucks

:sigh:
Diet is 90% of any kind of training, fat loss, weight loss, etc, that's all you need to know to answer your "why?"

WonderMonkey

So what about the other 10%, or whatever percentage? Wouldn't you like to do "the best that you can" with it? If timing your rides got you an additional 5% benefit I would think you would want to do it if you had the option.

And a :sigh: assumes I'm an idiot and "all I need to know" is very simplistic. If that was all people needed to know then that is all athletes would need to do. And it isn't. And there are reasons for it. If that is all YOU want to know, they good for you.