I think your "people don't need to be polite" statement may have come across differently than you intended; perhaps I am the only one, but I read it as a statement of no need for politeness to other road users. A common example of that attitude is the left-lane-hog plodding along at the speed limit in the fast lane of a multilane highway blocking others from passing. They are focused on "following the rules" in lieu of being polite to those around them.

I do agree that politeness ought not to be taken to the extreme of inconveniencing others and/or sowing confusion and thereby decreasing safety.


Whatever vehicle I'm using, I always figure we're all trying to get somewhere as soon as we can, so let's work together to achieve that goal safely.

IMO- this thread isn't about how someone may react to whether someone extends a non-obigatory courtesy, but about whether one does in the first place. I (for one or many) don't get mad at someone who doesn't do me a favor of any kind. That simply maintains the status quo, so there's no reason to get upset. OTOH - I routinely extend non-obligatory courtesies, as you now say you do, and receive the same in return. It just makes life nicer for everybody.

I treat all my fellow road users as I might treat my aunt (my mother's hypothetical sister, who has a big mouth and enjoys showing up my mother -- "I can't believe how rudely YOUR son treated me....".

As I said earlier, when situations like this occur, I'm more often driven by the question "why not?"

So now that you made a point that you're a nice guy, and that you have no obligation to do so, maybe you'll answer the original question. What if someone at a light asked you to move over so he could slide by and make a legal right on red. The OP said he always refuses, what would you do?



BTW- I might point out that this is the commuter thread, and commuting has unique aspects unlike most cycling. One of those is that we tend to share the road with the same people daily, same bus, police, UPS/Fedex drivers, and many of the same motorists on a regular basis. After 5 years riding the same routes at roughly the same times I know the cops, school crossing guards, and many of the regular drivers I see on my route.

That's an important distinction because it mean I can ride surrounded by friends or enemies. If I stop to fix a flat, people will stop, ask if I'm OK and offer a lift. To show how well a bicycle commuter can be known in his area, when I'm walking, some drivers will slow and ask "where's the bike today?" or something to that effect and offer me a lift.

If they were my friend, they wouldn't mind waiting for my safe passage. Always love when a Cali person puts me on the couch. You live in the land of some of the rudest drivers in the US, mellow out, Dude!

The only time I've been in this situation was sitting a curb where the right lane was also the turning lane for a freeway onramp. Less than 10 seconds before the light changed, a car pulls up behind me and honks. I look back at the driver, who is motioning for me to move; I notice the light is about to change and stay put. Driver gets pissed, moves closer, honks again, light turns green and I go. There was plenty of room to go around me if the driver was really in dire need to go, although the free way was clogged up with rush hour traffic anyway.

When there is no right turn lane, I generally move way up to the front which tends to give enough room for those behind me to turn right. Occasionally, for varied reasons, I sit on the curb which blocks right-turners. Most commonly I am hitting the crosswalk button and a driver pulls up behind me. It's awkward to reposition within the intersection in this circumstance, so there I wait, and overall no gets pissed, although one of those blocked right-turners probably went home, complained to the wife/husband, then got on bf to complain about me being a dick.

Ha, I saw ClarkinHawaii's post, but I didn't notice your .sig until just now -- did you change it for Clark?

I make room if it's safe to do so.

A nicely stated sentiment, FBinNY. I once read a piece of advice on a Forum, that the closer you get to work, the less likely you should cuss out motorists, since it might be a co-worker (or Boss ).

Especially true if on your way to an interview! Commuter swears at man then meets him a few hours later when he interviews him for a job | Daily Mail Online

This is my POV. I move will to the left and give them room to turn while still holding the lane for when I ride through the intersection. I've received many "Thanks" from drivers. I look at it strengthening the relationship between drivers and riders. Maybe next time that driver comes up on a bike they slow down a little more. If I don't give a little, maybe they squeeze out a rider if the lane is tight instead of waiting till more room is available.

+1

If you make room, drivers learn the lesson "Cyclists (at least some of them) are considerate and do not just clog up 'my' roads". If you don't make room, drivers do not learn the lesson "Oh, I guess I should just wait", instead they learn the lesson "Cyclists are a$$holes that annoy me and slow everybody down". Next time they have to make a judgment call of whether to speed up to turn right in front of a cyclist (or whether their current speed is sufficient to turn right in front of a cyclist), vs slowing down to turn right behind...

I used to be pretty hard nosed when it came to demanding my right to the lane, but I've noticed that good will toward drivers goes a long way, especially if you're on a route where you'll encounter the same drivers every day. If I see a car pull up behind me with its right turn signal on, I'll usually get off my bike, pick it up and move it the four or five feet to the left the car needs to turn. A grateful smile beats a menacing look any day as far as I'm concerned.

Just ignore the fact that it makes things easier for other people. Setting up on the left side of the right-most lane makes it easier and safer for you. You are out of the way of the jerk who is going to try to squeeze past to make a right no matter what, and it removes any ambiguity about whether you're going straight or right. So there, just do it for your own selfish reasons that also just happen to make things safer, more efficient, and spread a little goodwill.

Why is that so stupid? You, the o.p. and others in this thread way overestimate the likelihood of a right hook collision in this type of scenario. There is such a thing as convention, and whether you all want to admit it or not, the convention that prevails in most cities is that cars pass cyclists on their left! Moving to the left side of a lane so cars can pass on your right confuses them, annoys them, angers them. In the best case they simply won't do it. They will simply sit and stare. If that's what you want, fine, but don't think you are helping anyone out when you go against convention.

There are only two kinds of right lane at an intersection: a right turn only lane, and a regular right lane for either straight through or right turn. If it is a right turn only lane and you as cyclist do not intend to turn right, you have no business in that lane, so we don't need to discuss that situation any further. In even liberal cycle friendly cities like Portland, the rule is that cyclists stay to the right of other traffic. When you are at the corner waiting to go straight through you will be at the right side of the lane. If you wave a car by to turn right he will pass by on your left and turn across you while the light is still red. He cannot right hook you unless you are actually forward of the intersection and in the path of crossing traffic. Why would you be there? If he is pulling a long trailer that narrows the distance as he turns you should have noticed that!

I (and others) have also learned to stop a couple of car lengths short of the corner which sends a clear message to traffic in the right lane that you do not intend to turn right and so they should pass you on your left and do what they have to do. It's simple, and works well. Anything else is non-standard and causes confusion. Some cyclists revel in all the confusion, contention and cussedness that they can cause.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I think several safe options have been suggested, and they are likely context specific. At the singularly relevant right/through lane on my commute, it seems best to hug the left, and all of the cars that have passed me to the right on a red seem to agree (and they haven't seemed confused or angry---I can only assume they appreciated getting on their way a little more quickly).

Oh No You Di'iht! Cue the Take-The-Lane stormtroopers to open up a can of whup-a$$ on you for that one!

My experience (and many others around here) is that cars will often right-turn behind you if you position yourself to give them room. Sometimes I see tenative would-be-right-turners in my mirror, I reach back and give them a wave-through and if they go I try to send them a smile&wave or thumbs-up to communicate "Thanks for being aware of me and being concerned for my safety!" Once in a while somebody won't go through. I'll wave them through twice, then it's on them if they want to wait.

Cars generally pass cyclists on the left in moving traffic except for special cases, won't debate that.

At stop lights, if I can get the driver's attention and wave them forward, they will move up and make their right turn and give me a friendly wave. They otherwise seem content to wait. Maybe I'm clearer at doing it than others.

For busy enough roads, that's probably the best you can do. Whenever possible, I'll just take the lane approaching an intersection to get rid of the ambiguity until we're out of it again. If that makes people mad, they're not indicating it to me. Trust me, making other people confused and angry is rarely my goal.

this is the kind of straw man argument that makes us want to hide A&S where the uninitiated can't see it. I don't know how any reasonable person can respond to that sort of accusation after simply having said that a road user's only obligation is to follow the rules. I think there is room for reasonable people to have an opinion on both sides of this argument, and I simply can't believe it's getting this heated.

You may wish to read the full exchange before posting. I don't believe you've understood the point I was making and you don't seem to have seen my followup post to jfowler85.

Actually, I've seen it and I've had it happen to me while I'm driving a car in the right lane but I'm going straight through. The driver behind honks and then waves his hand in a forward motion to get me to inch up past the white line so they can squeeze by to make a right turn on red. So yes, some would ask a someone in a car and certainly someone on a motorcycle.