Originally Posted by noglider

"I've forgotten the point I was trying to make."

@Papa Tom, I've stolen that line from you.

Originally Posted by Papa Tom

See? That's what happens. We cyclists start talking about ourselves and everything else - and everyone else - goes right out the window.

Originally Posted by Daniel4

Financially privileged? To ride a bike? If you can't afford a bike, even a beater that your neighbour is throwing out, you wouldn't be able to afford a car. Lots of younger people I know are choosing public transit over the automobile, nowadays. So to each his own.

Originally Posted by loky1179

After reading that article several times, it seems to me that the author is the one displaying astounding elitism. Ms. Schwinn asserts that the argument that "E-bikes aren't real bicycles" is laughable. What I find laughable is the idea that words have no meaning. A bicycle is a human powered vehicle. An E-bike is a motorized vehicle. It is a pretty clear, simple, distinction.

I would not consider myself elitist about what I consider a bicycle. Here is a partial list of what I consider bicycles: Carbon fiber road bike, 29er Mtn bike, steel road bike, hybrids, department store bike shaped object, 26" mtb bike, 27.5" mtb bike, 1940s balloon tire cruiser, turn of the century track bike, 1880s high wheel ordinary, the hobby horse, my son's trike, hightech trikes, recumbents, tandems, the vehicles at the IHPVA races. All HUMAN powered.

On the other hand, you have motorized vehicles. Starting on the low and slow end with segways, Electric scooters, E-bikes, mopeds, scooters, 50cc motorcycles, 100cc motorcyles, 250cc motorcycles, high performance electric motorcycles. All rely on MOTORS.

And the idea that old people need motors to ride their bicycles off road? Give me a break. I'm sorry your body is not up to it anymore, but there are no guarantees in life. I'd love to run another marathon, but I'm pretty sure my knee won't let me. Does that mean I get to use a motorized assist? Hell no. It means my marathon days are over.

"But the U.S. has been much slower to pick up the technology, partially because of the aggressive backlash of self-identified “cyclists.”" No, I don't think so. I'm probably not going to buy an e-bike, but if you want to buy one, knock yourself out. I'm not standing in front of the e-bike shop preventing customers from entering.

Originally Posted by alan s

An e-bike is as much a motorcycle as it is a bike. That's where we part ways. Add a motor, and it is no longer a bicycle.

Originally Posted by InTheRain

So, I'm wondering... would these people that ride e-bikes be any less rude or dangerous if they were on a $10K road bike (or $75 department store bike) but had no idea about safety and etiquette? I'm not sure why there seems to be so much attention aimed at an e-biker for the very same actions and behaviors displayed by people on any other types of bikes. I have ridden for miles, several times with other commuters and many didn't know I was riding an e-bike until I mentioned it to them.



I have to pedal the bike for it to move. It is totally silent. It was a touring bike before it became an e-bike.

Originally Posted by tjspiel

My few encounters with e-bikers have been non-eventful and I would expect that to be the case most of the time.

I believe the fear revolves around speed. 20 mph isn't particularly fast but it's too fast for a crowded MUP. It's also a speed that can be hard to maintain or accelerate quickly to for a lot of people on conventional bikes. That doesn't mean that people can't be obnoxious on a regular bike, it's just that there's a built in limitation to that obnoxiousness. An e-bike removes that to a certain extent.

Whether that matters much in practice or not, I don't really know. I haven't seen evidence that it does so far. I did read a review of a pedal assist bike where the author did acknowledge it as a potential problem. He enjoyed the bike but did say that it did allow him to easily ride faster than he probably should in some situations.

FWIW I had a co-worker say the same thing about his road bike. He didn't commute with it because he felt that he had a tendency to ride it faster than was safe.

Originally Posted by InTheRain

As far as riding an e-bike in an event, I would rather not do it. However, if I had someone that could not complete the event without the use of an e-bike, I'd rather that they use the e-bike and ride along with me than to miss the event altogether. It's not a race. I think a distance event would be difficult to complete on an e-bike. Most don't have the battery capacity to complete a distance event. My own e-bike would probably top out at about 70 miles per charge at the lowest level of assistance... and in that case, my carbon fiber bike is much easier to ride than my e-bike at the lowest level of assistance - disadvantage e-bike (unless you have someone supporting you and providing you with a fresh battery after every 40-50 miles.)

I'm sure sanctioned races don't allow e-bikes just like they don't allow certain other technologies. I think the pro race circuit requires that bikes must be of a certain weight and if they are under that weight, they are not allowed in a race. And yet, the local races don't have that criteria... and there are guys riding 13-14 lbs bicycles that wouldn't be allowed in a pro race. Cheaters? No...not according to the local racing rules. Are these sub 14 lbs bike riders still racers? Yes, I believe they are.

Originally Posted by InTheRain

I don't disagree with what you posted. However, I don't believe that the ability to ride your bike faster than you should applies only to e-bikes. I can definitely ride my carbon fiber bike faster than I should (in fact, I can ride it faster than my e-bike in many situations) but that doesn't mean that I do it, just because I can. A person can be an idiot, no matter what they are riding or driving... sometimes they can do that without speed even being a factor.

Originally Posted by RubeRad

In areas with high cost of living and poor public transportation infrastructure (for instance San Diego), the working poor might not be able to live within practical biking distance of their work, so in that sense the might not be able to "afford" to be a cyclist (a commuter anyways)

Originally Posted by InTheRain

You've provided us with an opinion... but one that is not supported by the majority of laws around the country.

Originally Posted by tjspiel

I've mentioned multiple times that sailing is another hobby of mine. Interestingly enough, people have been putting motors on sailboats for a long time. And sailors will accuse other sailors of "cheating" if they are perceived to have used their motor out of laziness or lack of sailing skills.

Sailing is an activity in decline. One reason that has been suggested is that is because it is not welcoming enough of newcomers. It's got it's own jargon that people take pride in knowing. Same with the skills. Instead of making it easier for non sailors by making boats easier to own and sail, the focus is on learning the skills like everybody else had to.

Motors are also pretty much standard equipment on any blue water boat. Most people resort to using a motor for maneuvering in port or when the wind dies.

Originally Posted by loky1179

See how well quoting the law goes over when you show up for a race on your e-bike, or even the local shop training ride.

I have nothing against e-bikes, but pretending that adding a motor to a bicycle is the same as riding a 14 lb carbon fiber bike is just ridiculous.
The disagreement comes in how they should be regulated, and where it is appropriate to ride them.

I assume you are OK with them being banned in cycling races? I also think they should be banned in cycling races. I assume you think they are OK to ride on the road? I also think they are OK to ride on the road.

You think they are OK to ride on the MUP - and that is where I disagree. I think MUPS should be restricted to non-motorized travel. If the government is going to allow e-bikes on MUPS, I'll have to live with it, just like any other law I disagree with.

Originally Posted by loky1179

See how well quoting the law goes over when you show up for a race on your e-bike, or even the local shop training ride.

I have nothing against e-bikes, but pretending that adding a motor to a bicycle is the same as riding a 14 lb carbon fiber bike is just ridiculous.
The disagreement comes in how they should be regulated, and where it is appropriate to ride them.

I assume you are OK with them being banned in cycling races? I also think they should be banned in cycling races. I assume you think they are OK to ride on the road? I also think they are OK to ride on the road.

You think they are OK to ride on the MUP - and that is where I disagree. I think MUPS should be restricted to non-motorized travel. If the government is going to allow e-bikes on MUPS, I'll have to live with it, just like any other law I disagree with.

Originally Posted by loky1179

See how well quoting the law goes over when you show up for a race on your e-bike, or even the local shop training ride.

I have nothing against e-bikes, but pretending that adding a motor to a bicycle is the same as riding a 14 lb carbon fiber bike is just ridiculous.
The disagreement comes in how they should be regulated, and where it is appropriate to ride them.

I assume you are OK with them being banned in cycling races? I also think they should be banned in cycling races. I assume you think they are OK to ride on the road? I also think they are OK to ride on the road.

You think they are OK to ride on the MUP - and that is where I disagree. I think MUPS should be restricted to non-motorized travel. If the government is going to allow e-bikes on MUPS, I'll have to live with it, just like any other law I disagree with.

Originally Posted by kickstart

I think you'd like my brother, he's an avid sailboat racer. He just bought a new boat, and will be doing the Victoria-Maui race this year.

Originally Posted by tjspiel

I've mentioned multiple times that sailing is another hobby of mine. Interestingly enough, people have been putting motors on sailboats for a long time. And sailors will accuse other sailors of "cheating" if they are perceived to have used their motor out of laziness or lack of sailing skills.

Sailing is an activity in decline. One reason that has been suggested is that is because it is not welcoming enough of newcomers. It's got it's own jargon that people take pride in knowing.

Originally Posted by tjspiel

I'm sure I would. If my life situation were different, I'd love to do a race like that. As it is I rarely sail anything other than small boats and race only occasionally, - with predictable results .

Originally Posted by tjspiel

Anyway, there are lots of cycling events that have nothing to do with racing but have everything to do with completing a certain distance or for riding a certain period of time. I'm sure most of us know what someone means when they say they've completed a "century". Using an e-bike to complete one is absolutely cheating.

Originally Posted by gregf83

Is it also 'cheating' if you draft? A drafting rider will only spend about 65% of the energy that a solo rider uses. Seems very similar to riding with electric assist. If you run the numbers I think you'll find a drafting rider will save about 400Wh during a century, about the size of a typical e-bike battery.