GamblerGORD53

Have a look at the RAAM rule book. Endless paranoia about drafting. You practically need an appointment to pass somebody.
The same with any speck of fairing on your aero bars.

My tour bike was nearly the weight of a whole TdF team, 8 bikes. Still got up 10% hills just fine.

tjspiel

Hmm. There is a valid point here and I would answer it this way. There is an etiquette to drafting, - an expectation that you take a turn pulling. That doesn't mean that everyone does. Personally would not feel that I truly completed a century if the only way I could get through it would be to hang on someone's wheel the whole time.

As far as Ragbrai goes, drafting is actively discouraged: Rider Safety | RAGBRAI

I'd also argue that drafting isn't necessarily easy either. You've got to catch on to a person or a group and if they're moving significantly faster than you, staying with them can be pretty tough. Regardless of how much energy you may be saving, it's still requires a lot of focus. E-assist doesn't.

gregf83 

I agree on the etiquette and I've shaken guys off that weren't pulling their weight but the reality is that if you're in a decent sized group of 10 or more which isn't uncommon in a big ride you'll only be out front 10% of the time and the numbers I posted don't change much.

In most triathlons drafting is illegal but that doesn't stop people from cheating. Definitely less stigma to drafting than using a motor.

Here's another example: What about a couple on a tandem? Are they cheating? I think they're allowed in Ragbrai

caloso

If E-bike riders spent as much energy pedaling as they do justifying their E-bikes, they wouldn't need the motor assist.

InTheRain

If there is an MUP with a 10mph limit on it, I doubt that I'm taking any type of bike on that MUP. It sounds like it's crowded and that's why there is a 10mph limit. I can't say that I would enjoy riding a bicycle in those conditions.

InTheRain

You're assuming that e-bike riders don't also ride other types of bicycles. I commute on my e-bike. I ride my road bike for fitness, club rides, and distance events. I'm hoping to buy a mountain bike to ride in more isolated areas and enjoy the mountains and forest. However, I don't really care what kind of bike anyone rides for any type of riding... as long as it's legal and it's being operated safely. And as far as spending energy, I can get a much more difficult work out on my e-bike than I ever could on my road bike if I chose to ride it that way (in regen mode where I would be pedaling against the motor.)

kickstart

What about those of us who don't ride E-bikes, especially those of us who don't cheat by riding lightweight racing bikes, but understand the desire to ride one is the only justification needed, and aren't threatened by them?


Says the guy who just committed to buying a lightweight bike........

kickstart

The ceder river trail has a 10 mph limit, that's mostly ignored, especially by clubs, and rarely anywhere near crowed.

InTheRain

If it's not a race, and they are riding something classified as a bicycle I don't really care how they complete the event. I've ridden Seattle-to-Portland (STP) in one day. I've seen unicycles (I guess that's not a "bi" cycle) and tri cycles. Doesn't bother me at all. I see lots of tandems. I stuck on the back of a "paceline" that was pulled for 20+ miles by a guy on a fixie. If you are riding these events, you aren't competing with anyone except yourself... you shouldn't be worried about how others are completing the ride. I would love it if someone that I enjoyed riding with didn't have the physical capability or fitness to complete the STP without riding an e-bike could complete the ride with me by riding my e-bike. No, if you're using a level of assist on the e-bike that is easier than riding a light weight road bike, it isn't going to be as difficult... but even on an e-bike, a 200+ mile ride is tough. I think people need to quit looking at e-bikers as "cheaters." It's not a race.

My first attempt at the STP was made on my touring bike (it is now the e-bike.) I was not able to complete the ride. At 140 miles, pushing that 28 lbs bike was just too much. My next attempt was on a 17 lbs carbon fiber bike. It made all the difference in the world... and I was able to complete the one-day STP. I took advantage of technology to do something that was hard, but the more efficient bike made it possible for me to complete the ride. I had never thought of it as "cheating."

If I had a battery that would give me the range to complete the STP with my e-bike, I'd consider taking it on the STP (I really don't have the desire to do the one-day again and do all the training it would take me to get ready to suffer some more.) If it really bothers people, maybe they need to make a whole series of STP finisher shirts: Mountain Bike STP rider, Sub 15 lbs road bike STP rider, E-bike STP rider, Paceline STP rider, Solo STP bike rider, etc... However, I think that's overkill.

Cyclists need to quit comparing themselves to other cyclists. The place to do that is on the race circuits. Other types of cycling is you, competing with yourself. And for me, I use my e-bike to commute... which I have never thought of as a competition.

gregf83 

I've never had an ebike, but can't understand the, often illogical, animosity towards them.

canadian deacon

I'm not an elitest, but these "electric bikes" scare me; especially when they pass close by me without warning. My main fear is that they will crash into me. Too heavy to be considered a bike in my estimation yet they are piloted in bike lanes.

wphamilton

I've been wondering, if it's cheating to e-bike in that event (and I can see his point), would it also be cheating to draft an e-bike? From your perspective as the one drafting, there would be little or no difference between drafting a road bike and an e-bike. So it wouldn't be cheating, since it's the same action and effect as something legitimate. Yet taking advantage of a "cheat" to reduce your effort would have to be a cheat. It's an enigma.

What if your buddy escorted you on his Harley, and you drafted him the whole way? Would that be cheating? Serious question.

tjspiel

A unicycle is human powered, so is a tandem. So is a carbon fiber wonder machine. When you put a motor on a bike it is partially human powered at best and in my opinion doesn't belong in events intended for human powered transportation, especially those events that are meant to be tests of endurance. I'm not going to post pictures of e-bike riders at ragbrai and shame them as cheaters, but in my mind they are cheating. They may or may not care, that's up to them. It does bother me though that they'd be allowed to participate in events where numbers of participants are limited. How would you feel about somebody who completed STP while holding onto a car the whole time? They're still on a bike.

For purposes of utilizing MUPs most laws classify a pedal assist bikes as regular bikes. For the most part I don't have a problem with that. But there is a different reasoning behind that decision and should be as apposed to allowing them in endurance events.

If someone wants to complete STP on a pedal assist bike, that is their choice. It's my choice whether or not I'd consider that cheating. I'm not a rude person. I wouldn't call anyone out or give them dirty looks. I don't know their story. But I would consider it cheating for a healthy person to do that.

I am quite aware that there are things that I will do in life that will be met with some level of disapproval from certain people. The only time it makes me question what I'm doing is when I think they might be right. Otherwise I just ignore them. That would be my advice to e-bike riders.

caloso

Serious answer: it's called motorpacing and it's a time-honored training practice based on the principle "to ride fast you must ride fast. But you wouldn't use a H-D; they're too big (and loud). You would use a scooter, which is closer to the aerodynamic profile of a bike. I don't know if anyone considers it cheating.

alan s 

Drafting e-bikes is great training, and very similar to a group ride. They accelerate a little faster and can hold a higher pace than I generally otherwise ride at. Whenever I can, I draft this guy on an e-bike at 25 mph, and he's always looking back to see if he dropped me. The dude's on an MTB with knobbies riding at 25 mph sort of pedaling wearing work clothes. I'm not competing, just trying to get to work, so it's not cheating to draft the guy for a couple miles.

tjspiel

Ragbrai discourages drafting of any kind but specifically mentions drafting from a motor vehicle, - which leads me to believe people have done it.

And yes it's cheating !

I will go back to sailing since I think there are some analogous situations. Sailboats get their power from sails (duh), but lots of them also have motors. If you paid attention at all to the most recent America's Cup you'd realize that all kinds of technology get applied to sailboats to make them faster: multiple hulls, foils, rigid sails that resemble giant wings, etc. I'm all for that (some people aren't). But they are still getting their power from the wind.

As soon as you turn that motor on though you aren't really sailing anymore, you're "motorsailing". Now, there are lots of situations where boats will run their engines while the sails are still up and use both for propulsion. Whether or not that's "cheating" depends on what it is you're trying to accomplish, and people will not always agree what is cheating and what isn't (surprise).

alan s 

A lot of human energy was devoted to pumping hydraulic fluid on the latest AC boats. No battery or generator power allowed, except for electronics. Same applies to bike racing, except for shifting.

caloso

I love my fixed gear and will quote Desgrange as much as the next guy, but this analogy is false. Derailleurs do not add energy to the system.

badger1

So, I've read the thread. My take.

On the subject of "e-bikes" in relation to cycling I can't for the life of me understand the issue(s). E-bikes are not 'bicycles'. They are motorized, not human-powered, vehicles. That seems to me self-evident. In my observation, they don't -- certainly as most commonly used -- rely much at all, and certainly not primarily, on human power. So, to assert that they (e-bikes) are fundamentally a form of motorized vehicle is not to beg the question. Riding (or racing) an e-bike is not cycling; it is a form of motorized transportation or racing. Cycling is an essentially human-powered form of transportation/activity/racing: propulsion (motive force) is exclusively provided by energy from the rider's legs (or arms, in the case of hand-cycles) turning a crank which in turn turns a drive wheel.

I read the article that started this thread when it first came out in print in BT. I've now re-read it; the author's argument seems as specious to me now as it did then. Her claim is that "arguments like these (... "E-bikes “aren’t real bicycles.” They will bring people into the activity that “don’t belong there.” E-bike riders are “cheating.”...) are laughable because they come from such an obvious place of insecurity. And we’ve heard them before—they have been used to lash out at other technologies in the past such as disc brakes, hybrids, suspension and triple cranksets."

That claim, even leaving aside the stupid ad hominem attribution of opposition to e-bikes to "insecurity", is muddled nonsense. First, arguments against "other technologies", whatever their merit (or not) have nothing to do with the question whether or not a motorized vehicle such as an "e-bike" is a "real bicycle". Whether or not a two-wheeled vehicle has or has not disc brakes, suspension, or a triple crankset or even (now) an electronic transmission is irrelevant to the question whether or not it is essentially human-powered.

Second, the "don't belong there" argument she posits is an obvious straw-person. I have never heard, or heard of, any cyclist making the argument that equipping a bicycle with disc brakes or Di2 will somehow allow undesirable persons to ride a bicycle, let alone heard or heard of anyone arguing that certain persons or 'types' of person should not be permitted to ride a bike. In any case, it's irrelevant; persons who ride e-bikes are not cyclists when they are riding e-bikes; they may also be cyclists, just as I am both a car driver and a cyclist, but not when riding an e-bike. The activity in question is cycling; riding an e-bike is an activity, but it is not cycling, and so yes -- e-bikes and their riders "don't belong there" (cycling), any more than do cars and their drivers.

Third, the "e-bike riders are 'cheating'" argument. I don't think anyone could, or would, argue that riding an e-bike is in and of itself "cheating". "Cheating" what? Obviously it isn't, unless someone were doing so inside a cycling race or event, where the agreed rules preclude motorized vehicles, which e-bikes are. Someone riding a disguised e-bike (a motorized vehicle) in a UCI-sanctioned road race, for example, would in fact rather obviously be cheating. Where is the controversy? What is so difficult to understand? No different than if I were to turn on my cleverly-silenced auxiliary engine during a sail race when the wind died. I'd be cheating, and should be DSQ'd. To my mind, the analogy with sailing (with which I had much experience, including racing -- the only sport I was ever the least bit good at!) is entirely apposite.

The author's 'argument' is in fact nothing more than a somewhat twee call for uncritical inclusivity; quite typical these days. She might as well argue that motorcycle riders and car drivers are 'cyclists too' because "we're all using wheels to get somewhere. Isn't that all gooey and wonderful!! We're just a great big Community of the Wheeled". No thanks.

That said, my view:

1. E-bikes are motorized vehicles. Riding them is a perfectly legitimate activity, and while I'm not interested I can see the attraction, usefulness, etc. But, the activity of riding them is not cycling.
2. As motorized vehicles, however, they have no place whatsoever on MUPs restricted to non-motorized use, in designated on-street or beside-street bicycle lanes, or on designated mtb trails.

Robert C

My e-bike, seen in the picture brought my 42Lb commuter up to 51.5Lb. Yes, a bit heavy; but well within the range of a bike weight.

To hear the people here on bike forums, e-bikes are so slow they are not capable of passing anyone. Almost all of theses threads are filled with stories of people dropping e-bikes, while, at t e same time, claiming that e-bikes are too fast to be safe. In reality, I tend to run between 15-17mph. As such I do pass people; however, I don't pass people often as most people are doing what this anti-bike forum clearly recommends, driving a car. However, like any other responsible bicycle rider, when I do pass someone, I do so with consideration and caution (in reality most of the cyclists I pass are on the sidewalk, on the other side of the street). What always happens is that we tend to notice, and remember, the rare exception how is behaving poorly.

There is no reason to be "scared." It is just another bicycle and rider going to work.

So, let me ask you "real cyclists" this question. Suppose I decide that you are right, that my e-bike isn't a bicycle and has no place. What kind of car do you recommend I get?

wphamilton

Maybe you're a fixed gear snob against SS. Single speeds freewheeling down a hill are also providing assistance in motion. Going faster than the pedals will turn, just like those cheating sprockets enable you to do.

I spent a lot of weekends sailing as a teenager (I miss that). Mostly lakes, day-sailing. I always sailed into dock, no motor, but that was all ego and image on my part. My father however was more reluctant to stupidly tack back and forth in a sheltered harbor or worse yet get blown up against a dock coming in. I guess an e-bike motor could be used either way, either to push you around while pretending to sail or cycle, or else mainly when pedaling would objectively be kind of dumb given a motor at hand.

350htrr

I don't think the article was in anyway saying that E-Bikes should be allowed in race/endurance events... What I got out of it was that E-Bikes were a good thing in general and shouldn't be looked down upon as it brings more people into cycling who wouldn't normally cycle and out of their vehicles... And sure there are dumbasses everywhere on all types of bikes...

tjspiel

It has been suggested that sailing as a hobby is in decline partially because it is hard to learn. And old sailors should be less critical of equipment or approaches that make it more palatable to people that have less time on their hands.

95% of my sailing has been on small boats without a motor so I have to sail into the dock or buoy field regardless of wind strength or direction. The rules of the sailing club that I belong to is that the more experienced sailors have to help the new sailors learn and docking is one of the tougher things to learn to do consistently well. One of my biggest fears is that I'll go crashing into the dock or worse, not make it and get blown into the rocks while attempting to teach proper dock return techniques.

I have a lot of respect for people who can dock even very large boats under sail with apparent ease. Yet I agree that it one of things that can scare people away from sailing.

tjspiel

I'm afraid I'm the one that introduced endurance events into the discussion since I see that as different than using an e-bike for transportation.

Daniel4

I have no problems with e-bikes as long as they respect the other users of MUPs and bike lanes. As long as someone chooses an e-bike, he or she is not in a car. But if the e-bike user must go as fast as it allows, say over 15km/hr, then ride with motorized traffic.

I would also add if a non-power-assisted cyclist is planning to maintain 15km/hr or higher, he or she should get off the MUPs for respect and consideration of pedestrians there.