tjspiel

To answer your question in another way, my belief is that human power is a fundamental characteristic of what I understand to be cycling.

A bike can have a motor just a as sailboat can have a motor, but sailing and motoring are different activities. There is something called "motorsailing" which is a combination of the two. Unfortunately the term "motorcycling" is already taken.

Maybe "motorpedaling" is an appropriate term. For many or even most applications, the distinction is not necessarily an important one (transportation for example), but there are others where it is (IMO).

alan s 

I don't know where you ride, but around here, e-non-bikes are a problem. I get passed at high speed by these demons at least once a week, and I'm not exactly a slouch. And the fake pedaling along with the silly grin really irks me.

350htrr

Yes, me too... But the reason some of them are "fake" pedaling is because that is how their E-system is set up, with a sensor for the pedal rotation to apply the "assist", nothing to do with how much they are actually putting into their pedaling effort...

alan s 

Isn't that what moped stands for? MOtorPEDaling

noglider 

I'm glad to see more positive things about ebikes here. My socio-political-economic-environmental views lead me to wish for people using smaller and lower-impact transportation than private cars. Ebikes are one such thing. I suspect a lot of ebike riders are not former bike riders; they are probably switching from cars, foot, and mass transit. This is a good thing.

tjspiel

Yeah, but Moped is a noun, not a verb. It's also a term that's been diluted over time and often refers to something more like a scooter than a bike. For example, legally in Iowa a Moped doesn't even need pedals. It's basically a motorcycle, scooter, motorized bicycle with a top speed under 40 mph. Just goes to show you that legal definitions don't always jive with common definitions.

350htrr

There, that's the crux of the "problem" with E-Bikes, the legal definitions in different jurisdictions in N America is all over the place, unlike in Europe it's fairly close everywhere... 90% of the E-Bikes I see advertised in N America are not E-assist bikes, but are E-Bikes/mopeds for all intensive purposes... IMO Thus you have;

E-Assist; 350watts or less, PAS (with crank pressure sensor, % of assist derived from pedal input ), no throttle, must pedal to get anywhere, restricted to 20MPH. = Legal
E-Bike; 500+watts, PAS ( pretend pedal effort not measured) or throttle, & usually not restricted to 20MPH. = not legal
E-Bike; 500-6,000+watts, throttle only basically and not restricted to 20MPH. = Not legal

But pretty well all these bikes are ridden where only E-Assist or regular bikes are allowed, as they can get around the laws because they don't look like mopeds, and because of relaxed laws in some jurisdictions... JMO

caloso

6000 watts?

350htrr

Yes, it can do 60MPH top speed, and go 150Miles Per charge @ 20MPH...

And only for (off road use) you understand...

caloso

Well that's almost as much as I can do with my race wheels and a skinsuit, so it's practically the same thing, right?

loky1179

So. . . you're saying maybe 90% of the electric mopeds out there are not actually E-assist? And in fact are illegal to ride on trails? I'm starting to see where that judgement and snobbishness among bicyclists comes from.

350htrr

What I am saying is, that in my opinion in N America, as many as 90% (made up number) of the legal E-Assist bikes are really E-Bikes... And those E-Bikes are really more like mopeds then legal E-Assist bikes... JMO And because of that, and how some are being ridden, legal E-Assist bikes are also lumped into the not a 'real' bicycle category even tho one MUST pedal one...

cruiserhead

The fact is that 75% of e-bikes sold in N. America are legal assist bikes with 350W or less.
20% of e-bikes are less than 200W and 3% are above 400W. 2% are offroad only, above 500W.


*all statistics are factual in the moment I made them up.
actual numbers in reality will be significantly different but unimportant in the spirit of this thread.

caloso

I wonder if these ebike riders know just how hard it is to put out 350 watts.

cruiserhead

they dont care about what it takes nor should they, just as no one cares what it takes for an electric car to move, just that it makes carrying groceries or getting to a meeting without fuss.

350htrr

Touché... Wasn't meant as a statistic per say. I guess I should have said, "what I see being advertised for sale most E-bikes don't seem to conform to the legal definition of an E-Assist bike as I understand it, I would estimate it to be maybe even as high as 90%"... JMO

350htrr

I'm sure most don't, and I agree with the other poster they don't care.

I get 122.5watts of assist on my legal E-Assist set up on level 1, if I put in 350watt effort into pedaling, if I put in 100watts of pedaling effort I would get 35watts of assist... Estimated...

Level 1 assist adds 35% of my effort on top of my effort.
Level 2 assist adds 100% of my effort on top of my effort.
Level 3 assist adds 200% of my effort on top of my effort. up to 350Watts
Level 4 assist adds 300% of my effort on top of my effort, up to 350Watts.

I use no assist about 10% of the time.
level 1 about 80% of the time.
level 2,3,4, about 9% of the time.
Throttle about 1% of the time...

Papa Tom

Just a word from the OP: Do you think this thread has gone a little too far off-topic not to piss off someone joining it fresh? It was originally about attitudes of cyclists toward cyclists with different attitudes and outlooks. Now we seem to just be bashing people who need a little extra juice to get up a damned hill.

350htrr

But wasn't that the gist of the article?

tjspiel

Are you suggesting that sailing is off topic?

I will plead guilty to contributing to thread drift. But I honestly haven't seen much bashing of people who need a little extra juice to get over a hill. You can find it if you're looking for it, but I'd say that's been a small percentage of posts.

There has been a lot of discussion over whether nor not e-bikes belong on a MUP or whether or not should should be excluded from certain cycling events. Then there's the fact that "e-bike" is a broad term. Some go way beyond "a little extra juice". Others are just that.

Papa Tom

Yes, and that is a really good discussion, worthy of its own thread. I'm just saying that, instead of attracting responses about how cyclists feel about the way we tend to judge each other, the tone of this conversation has gone in a direction that would probably turn away lots of people who have good things to say about this topic - OTHER than what they think about e-bikes.

tjspiel

So I went back and re-read the article. E-bikes were used as an example of what I think Papa Tom was interested in. E-bikes became the focus of this thread but what he was after something different.

Had the article spent as much time on other examples besides e-bikes the thread may have gone more the way you intended.

So to address the intended topic, I will say that it really has very little to do with cycling and everything to do with human nature. Any time you've made a choice and become invested in it, a natural tension occurs when someone has made a different choice. It's like a disturbance in the Force.

I work in the tech field and as I'm sure anyone else who does has observed that this sort of thing happens all the time. Linux people think Windows is stupid. C++ programmers think PHP programmers are hacks. Non Python programmers think making whitespace significant is just about the worst idea ever.

A lot of the time these passionate feelings of dislike for "the other" grow out of myths and superficial understanding, and yes (as the article pointed out), sometimes insecurity.

Interestingly enough, some of the most bitter rivalries occur within subgroups that would appear to outsiders to have a lot in common.

Papa Tom

Well said.

Robert C

Clearly not everyone here agrees with your statement. It seems several here feel that there is no difference between pedaling an e-bike and driving an SUV.

I know in my case I was getting fed up with the wind on my commute and was really considering giving in and purchasing a car. Instead I added a 350W front hub and am continuing to cycle to work. Based on observation, first, I still pedal, and it is not "fake pedaling" as some of the arrogant bike snobs call it; I am pedaling and I can feel the pressure I am putting out. The difference is that I am riding at a comfortable speed in the headwinds. As far as speed, the speed, with no wind is about 17 (at about 60-80W motor power) where before it was about 12-15. the difference is in the wind. I am slowing to about 12-15 (at roughly 200W motor power) where without the motor I was slowing to 5-7.

Frankly, the assist motor makes the commute pleasant. I am not engaged in some great athletic pursuit; further, I am not pretending that I am. For me it about getting to work.

I realize that goes against the Bike Forum, commuting mantra which clearly holds that no one but an athlete should bike commute to work. I happen to disagree with the Bike Forum consensus, I feel that we would be better off with more people riding bicycles to work and for daily tasks. If a small assist makes it possible, then great. While the clear Bike Forum, Commuting sub group consensus is that more people should be driving; I disagree.


I do find it a bit funny that the topic was about bike snobbishness, and instead of coming together, the bike snobs used this as, yet another, opportunity to attempt to drive a wedge in the cycling community.

Papa Tom

>>>>I do find it a bit funny that the topic was about bike snobbishness, and instead of coming together, the bike snobs used this as, yet another, opportunity to attempt to drive a wedge in the cycling community.<<<

Me, too.