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-   Commuting (https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/)
-   -   commuting bikes....will they ever be like the Dutch? (https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/191656-commuting-bikes-will-they-ever-like-dutch.html)

bkrownd 04-30-06 05:21 PM
I'm telling you that Novara Buzz could be an ideal urban people transporter.

I-Like-To-Bike 04-30-06 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by bkrownd
Well...you could start with the 60 inches of rain we have so far this year...
That's why God invented fenders, towels and plastic bags for carrying dry clothes.

joejack951 04-30-06 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by robmcl
You asked for it. You got it! Statistics on the distances to the work place. This comes for the US Census Burea's American Housing Survey - Journey to Work, which can be found at the link below. 2003 was the last year that they had data. You did get me. According to this, 26.5% of people either work at home or commute less than 4 miles.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housi...s03/tab224.htm

< 1 mile 3.9%
1-4 miles 19.5%
5-9 miles 19.5%
10-19 miles 25.2%
20-29 miles 11.1%
30-49 miles 7.4%
50> 1.9%
Works at home 3.1%
no fixed place 8.5%

median 10 miles

Although, I should add that it appears that the median in suburbs is 15 miles, and distances do vary between regions of the country. So the local media in a particular location may give a differenct perception for a local area versus the national average.
Somewhat unrelated, but I'm curious how those distances were determined. Were they reported by the person or calculated? I only ask because a guy I work with swore I rode over 10 miles to work (I ride past his house on my way in) and was shocked when I told him he was only ~5 miles from work. I can't understand how one could drive the same distance every day and not realize how far it was (he thought he was closer to 10 miles from work) but obviously it happens. Needless to say, that didn't change his opinion that riding to work would be impossible for him to do.

I-Like-To-Bike 04-30-06 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by robmcl
You asked for it. You got it! Statistics on the distances to the work place. This comes for the US Census Burea's American Housing Survey - Journey to Work, which can be found at the link below. 2003 was the last year that they had data. You did get me. According to this, 26.5% of people either work at home or commute less than 4 miles.
...
Although, I should add that it appears that the median in suburbs is 15 miles, and distances do vary between regions of the country. So the local media in a particular location may give a differenct perception for a local area versus the national average.
In addition, and again, it should be pointed out that this set of stats only addresses the householder and not a single soul of probably the largest group of people for whom a bicycle is a viable commuting/utility/transportation option: Youth, and students of all ages.

Also, the potential customers for European Style commuter bicycles (built to be practical for urban commuting and relatively short distances) just may LIVE in urban areas. Not many candidates for such commuting bikes are likely to be found in the outer reaches of suburbia or rural areas where the average commuting distance may be beyond the bicycling distance that all but dedicated enthusiasts would ever consider practical. And that few others would consider practical with any bike.

robmcl 04-30-06 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Not many candidates for such commuting bikes are likely to be found in the outer reaches of suburbia or rural areas where the average commuting distance may be beyond the bicycling distance that all but dedicated enthusiasts would ever consider practical. And that few others would consider practical with any bike.
I think it can be practical for anyone who spends time at a health club, running, going for walks, or any other activity to stay fit. A longer commute say 9 or 12 miles does not need to be done everyday and since you are in a sense accomplishing two tasks at the same time, you get double value for the time you otherwise would be spending in your car. A slowish 12 mile commute takes about one hour or two hours per day of commuting and probably 15 minutes each way by car or 30 minutes per day, which could be considered fast in some places. Bike commuting this route twice per week adds up to 4 hours of biking per week. By the same token if you spend 1 hour at a health club working out three times a week that is near to your work or home, you would have spent 3 hours working out plus 1.5 hours of commute time in your car for a total of 4.5 hours.

bkrownd 04-30-06 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by robmcl
A slowish 12 mile commute takes about one hour or two hours per day of commuting
For bike commuting, to be honest, don't forget to factor in the half hour for cooldown/cleanup/shower time on arrival. My bike commute is 8-13 minutes of cycling time, but I don't get to my desk until 45ish minutes after I left home.

mike 04-30-06 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by robmcl
You asked for it. You got it! Statistics on the distances to the work place. This comes for the US Census Burea's American Housing Survey - Journey to Work, which can be found at the link below. 2003 was the last year that they had data. You did get me. According to this, 26.5% of people either work at home or commute less than 4 miles.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housi...s03/tab224.htm

< 1 mile 3.9%
1-4 miles 19.5%
5-9 miles 19.5%
10-19 miles 25.2%
20-29 miles 11.1%
30-49 miles 7.4%
50> 1.9%
Works at home 3.1%
no fixed place 8.5%

median 10 miles

Although, I should add that it appears that the median in suburbs is 15 miles, and distances do vary between regions of the country. So the local media in a particular location may give a differenct perception for a local area versus the national average.
Thanks for the data, Rob. This is interesting. It shows that at least about 20% of the population is well within a reasonable 4 mile commute and roughly 45% are well within a ten mile commute. Imagine if even 10 % of these folks bicycled to work even once per week. It would have a tremendous impact on gasoline demand and, correspondingly gas prices.

bkrownd 04-30-06 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by mike
Thanks for the data, Rob. This is interesting. It shows that at least about 20% of the population is well within a reasonable 4 mile commute and roughly 45% are well within a ten mile commute. Imagine if even 10 % of these folks bicycled to work even once per week. It would have a tremendous impact on gasoline demand and, correspondingly gas prices.
The problem is that when people leave work they usually want to hit one or more other places quickly to run errands, which may double, triple or more the distance and time. Pick up dinner. Kids to soccer. Return the video. Raid the sale rack at the mall. Pick up nails at Home Despot. etc. And they want to do it FAST. Americans demand to be able to pack a LOT of things into a day.

jcm 04-30-06 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by mike
This is an interesting post because I was just wondering WHY bicycle fashion ever went the way of the road bike and then to the monutain bike in the first place.

For most of America's history, the bicycle WAS the Dutch style; an upright and very functional design. Look at the British style three speeds that have just started to become noticed by collectors. They were PERFECT for most city riding. They put the rider in a comfortable riding position. The wheels were 26" by 1.275" = good for the stop/to of city riding and optimal thin/stable wheels for easy torque and stability.

They had an extremely reliable internal 3-speed hub.

Many people did use these bikes. Until about the late 1980's, just about every garage in the USA had one, until the last of them finally started to congregate at the landfills. My first commuter bicycle was an old three speed upright and I LOVED it! It had a sidesaddle badket on the back that could carry at least 60 lbs of groceries. It was an enormously functional machine.

So to answer the question as to weather or not the USA will adopt the Dutch style; we have already been there. The question is, "when will we go back?"
I think we have gone back. To wit: the ubiquitous comfort bikes that are all the rage.
And for good reason. Consider that the 3-speeds were mostly used for short hops and utility. Many people who drive the market for comfort bikes also use them for short rides - on rail trails, etc. The utility aspect has all but disappeared, though. They have basically the same riding posture and many have internal hubs.
I also love my old 3-speed. I think I'll go out to the shop and wax it up...

jcm 04-30-06 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by bkrownd
Well...you could start with the 60 inches of rain we have so far this year...
Yeah, it must be real tough over there.:D

donnamb 04-30-06 11:03 PM
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by chipcom
Don't forget the Breezers.

I have had my Breezer 8-speed for 20 days now, and I am very happy with it so far. I rode to work 11 out of the 15 weekdays, and have used it for other errands 16 out of 20 days, 2-15 mile trips one way. I do not own a car, so I realize I am more likely than some to stick to the bike commute. It currently take me 5 minutes less to ride than take the bus to work, and I am really out of shape. I don't feel the amount of riding I am currently doing will be difficult to keep up, especially with how fun the Breezer is for me. I love being able to wear street pants (and skirts!) on the bike so long as the weather is good, and by the time the major rainy season starts up again, I'll be able to acquire raingear suitable for Oregon.

In contrast, I gave up riding my great Schwinn hybrid about 2 years after moving to Oregon from Michigan. Before that, I was riding 8-10 miles a day, though not in winter. I just wasn't meant to use and take care of a derailer in an urban area with lots of rain. My back also appreciates being more upright these days. My love of cycling is returning, which is something I never thought would happen. Thus far, I believe the bike to be worth every penny.

I think there are a lot of people like me out there. Bikes like Breezers, Koga Miyatas, the Bianchi commuters, or Kettlers would get more people out of cars, and almost certainly into better health. I realize they are not for everyone, but perhaps we need more diversity in bikes for this very diverse country of ours.

jcm 05-01-06 12:26 AM
[QUOTE=donnamb]


I have had my Breezer 8-speed for 20 days now, and I am very happy with it so far. I rode to work 11 out of the 15 weekdays, and have used it for other errands 16 out of 20 days, 2-15 mile trips one way. I do not own a car, so I realize I am more likely than some to stick to the bike commute. It currently take me 5 minutes less to ride than take the bus to work, and I am really out of shape. I don't feel the amount of riding I am currently doing will be difficult to keep up, especially with how fun the Breezer is for me. I love being able to wear street pants (and skirts!) on the bike so long as the weather is good, and by the time the major rainy season starts up again, I'll be able to acquire raingear suitable for Oregon.

In contrast, I gave up riding my great Schwinn hybrid about 2 years after moving to Oregon from Michigan. Before that, I was riding 8-10 miles a day, though not in winter. I just wasn't meant to use and take care of a derailer in an urban area with lots of rain. My back also appreciates being more upright these days. My love of cycling is returning, which is something I never thought would happen. Thus far, I believe the bike to be worth every penny.

I think there are a lot of people like me out there. Bikes like Breezers, Koga Miyatas, the Bianchi commuters, or Kettlers would get more people out of cars, and almost certainly into better health. I realize they are not for everyone, but perhaps we need more diversity in bikes for this very diverse country of ours.
Good for you! I got a chance to borrow a Breezer Uptown 8 for two days. I really liked it.

bkrownd 05-01-06 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by jcm
Yeah, it must be real tough over there.:D
Furniture and house fittings are rusting, mold is growing on my books, clothes, walls... 3-4 showers a day necessary if you want to feel clean for more than an hour. Can't do any biking other than commuting. Can't do any hiking. Late night walks are impossible. Our volleyball court is a lake. etc... Looking forward to visiting Minneapolis St. Paul next month for some pleasant and DRY weather.

I-Like-To-Bike 05-01-06 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by bkrownd
For bike commuting, to be honest, don't forget to factor in the half hour for cooldown/cleanup/shower time on arrival. My bike commute is 8-13 minutes of cycling time, but I don't get to my desk until 45ish minutes after I left home.
1/2 hour for cooldown/cleanup/shower for 8-13 minites of riding? Sounds right if you are using your bike as an exercise machine. Otherwise I would suggest cut your cycling speed in half and save time. IMO, a far more efficient use of your time.

bkrownd 05-01-06 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
1/2 hour for cooldown/cleanup/shower for 8-13 minites of riding? Sounds right if you are using your bike as an exercise machine. Otherwise I would suggest cut your cycling speed in half and save time. IMO, a far more efficient use of your time.
Are you kidding? I can't go at half the speed or i'm going to have 3 blocks of road raging traffic backed up behind me when I get there. I'm riding at my most efficient speed, anyhow, and only have to kick it up a notch to get up the big hills.

mike 05-01-06 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by jcm
I think we have gone back. To wit: the ubiquitous comfort bikes that are all the rage.
And for good reason. Consider that the 3-speeds were mostly used for short hops and utility. Many people who drive the market for comfort bikes also use them for short rides - on rail trails, etc. The utility aspect has all but disappeared, though. They have basically the same riding posture and many have internal hubs.
I also love my old 3-speed. I think I'll go out to the shop and wax it up...
I agree that in the USA the 3-speed was used mostly for short hops. HOWEVER, it their day, they used to be called "English Racers" in the USA and "Touring Bicycles" in England. In fact, they were both; lighter, faster, easier to ride, and better for long distance than the balloon tire bikes they replaced.

I toured for hundreds of miles for a single tour on a 3-speed bicycle and thought it was a lovely ride.

When I commuted on a 3-speed, my average speed was about 17 miles per hour in the city which is not too far off the average speed on a road bike.

PaulH 05-01-06 06:55 AM
Originally Posted by mike
I agree that in the USA the 3-speed was used mostly for short hops. HOWEVER, it their day, they used to be called "English Racers" in the USA and "Touring Bicycles" in England. In fact, they were both; lighter, faster, easier to ride, and better for long distance than the balloon tire bikes they replaced.

I toured for hundreds of miles for a single tour on a 3-speed bicycle and thought it was a lovely ride.

When I commuted on a 3-speed, my average speed was about 17 miles per hour in the city which is not too far off the average speed on a road bike.
I still remember my first ride on an English 3 speed back in the early 1960s. Up till then, I had only ridden the standard American balloon-tire singlespeeds, and the Raleigh was a revelation. Our bike club at school had an astounding variety of bikes available to us -- balloon-tire American bikes, English 3 speeds, road bikes, even an English roadster (much like the Dutch bikes) bet the 3 speeds were always my favorites. My present bike is very much a modern version of those bikes -- lighter weight, better dynamo, stronger tires, seven gears instead of three -- and it feels much the same to ride. I agree that bikes like this are a good compromise between perfornmance and utility In Europe, they are called "trekking bikes", and are used for longer trips than the Dutch-style urban bikes.

Paul

d_D 05-01-06 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by bkrownd
All they'd have to do is ask the bike store to install fenders, rack, sidebags and lights.
Just like when going to the electronics shop the dvd players don't have scart cables in the box and all the ones in the shop start at $15. A lot of customers are wise to this and will leave the shop with a bad taste in their mouth. What else can you really think about a shop that claims to know exactly what you need but is incapable of getting off the shelf products that match those needs?
In many cases it is probably true, shops like bikes without that stuff because they can potentially bump the sale price up 15% with high markup items.

bkrownd 05-01-06 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by d_D
In many cases it is probably true, shops like bikes without that stuff because they can potentially bump the sale price up %15 with high markup items.
I'm not sure what bike shops you're going to, but the ones I buy my bikes at have always given discounts on accessories purchased with the bike.

I-Like-To-Bike 05-01-06 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by bkrownd
Are you kidding? I can't go at half the speed or i'm going to have 3 blocks of road raging traffic backed up behind me when I get there.
Why you obviously need further training and an attitude adjustment!:p
Mosey on over to the Advocacy and Safety forum and you can learn how you (and the motorists too) can enjoy such conditions with the right book learning.

You can learn about herding those motorists and do mind meld tricks and eliminate rage by adapting an alpha dog attitude in conjunction with cryptic steely eyed gazing. And then you won't need those 30 minute recovery periods. Give it a try!:)

jcm 05-01-06 10:41 AM
Mike and PaulH:
Here's my testimony to those very nice old 3-speeds:
Trek 830 mtb
http://i1.tinypic.com/wwak5v.jpg
http://i1.tinypic.com/wwakw0.jpg

Trek 520 tour bike:currently wearing SPD's
http://i3.tinypic.com/wwamja.jpg

Restored just for grins:'64 Mercury Courier
http://i3.tinypic.com/wwanmu.jpg

mike 05-01-06 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by jcm
Mike and PaulH:
Here's my testimony to those very nice old 3-speeds:
Trek 830 mtb
http://i1.tinypic.com/wwak5v.jpg
http://i1.tinypic.com/wwakw0.jpg

Trek 520 tour bike:currently wearing SPD's
http://i3.tinypic.com/wwamja.jpg

Restored just for grins:'64 Mercury Courier
http://i3.tinypic.com/wwanmu.jpg
By Jove, JCM, you've done it!

jcm 05-01-06 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Why you obviously need further training and an attitude adjustment!:p
Mosey on over to the Advocacy and Safety forum and you can learn how you (and the motorists too) can enjoy such conditions with the right book learning.

You can learn about herding those motorists and do mind meld tricks and eliminate rage by adapting an alpha dog attitude in conjunction with cryptic steely eyed gazing. And then you won't need those 30 minute recovery periods. Give it a try!:)
The Steely-Eyed Gaze is only to be exercised by those qualified in its use.

If not so qualified, get an eyebrow pencil from your g-friend or wife or whatever, and darken the area between your brows til they touch. Then, practise in front of a mirror while repeating, "A-yooz talkin' uh- mee?"

Do this until said pencil-lender refuses to be around you. You are then qualified.

jcm 05-01-06 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by mike
By Jove, JCM, you've done it!
Yes. All that is required are the woolen knickers!:D

ZachS 05-01-06 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by jcm
Mike and PaulH:
Here's my testimony to those very nice old 3-speeds:
Trek 830 mtb
http://i1.tinypic.com/wwak5v.jpg
http://i1.tinypic.com/wwakw0.jpg

Trek 520 tour bike:currently wearing SPD's
http://i3.tinypic.com/wwamja.jpg

Restored just for grins:'64 Mercury Courier
http://i3.tinypic.com/wwanmu.jpg
gotta add one more to the mix - the early 90's specialized crossroads in my sig.


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