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-   -   commuting bikes....will they ever be like the Dutch? (https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/191656-commuting-bikes-will-they-ever-like-dutch.html)

bkrownd 05-02-06 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by apw55
I find it interesting that often people who present themselves as fit, athletic types complain that commuter bikes and vintage 3 speeds are too difficult to ride on anything other than flat ground but then turn around and say that the people who do ride them are old and out of shape.
They aren't difficult to ride, they're uncomfortable and inefficient to ride. The term "comfort bike" has always been a puzzling contradiction, but I guess that's all part of trying to market something to people who don't know any better..

Here's a more reasonable commuter solution: (single chainring, disk brakes, big slicks, plenty adjustable, no suspension, ready for fenders and rack)

http://barn1.larrythellama.com/thumb...kim/5104.6.jpg

Nightshade 05-02-06 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by bkrownd
They aren't difficult to ride, they're uncomfortable and inefficient to ride. The term "comfort bike" has always been a puzzling contradiction, but I guess that's all part of trying to market something to people who don't know any better..

Here's a more reasonable commuter solution: (single chainring, disk brakes, big slicks, plenty adjustable, no suspension, ready for fenders and rack)

http://barn1.larrythellama.com/thumb...kim/5104.6.jpg
While the bike in your photo is nice it's not what most folk's(NON cyclist) think of as bike they
might want to ride. Many just don't want to mess with deraillers or find the unnatural arm twisting
flat bars comfortable for long.

Put an internal hub & northroads bars on it with a spring Brooks and you'll get a lot closer
to a bike folk's will not only ride but will consider to actually buying. It's not "Dutch" enough to
be an everymans bike.

thdave 05-02-06 11:43 AM
bkrownd,

That is a nice bike for commuting--if you add fenders, rack, bell, and chain guard. I like the disks. I wouldn't argue about the gearing--it is splitting hairs between that and an internal gear hub. I agree that single sprocket upfront is better for most riders--you can add a chain guard more easily and it is easier to operate and more reliable than the 3 chainring.

What puzzles me is why you say that bike is more efficient than a Breezer or other Dutch-style bike? My bike has all that gear and only weighs 30 pounds. Sure it has a suspension seat post which could be done without (although I like it). Yet, I have a hybrid and I go the same speeds.

While I don't really know, I suspect that bike you show is not noticeably faster.

bkrownd 05-02-06 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Tightwad
While the bike in your photo is nice it's not what most folk's(NON cyclist) think of as bike they
might want to ride. Many just don't want to mess with deraillers or find the unnatural arm twisting
flat bars comfortable for long.
I don't know why you think flat bars are "unnatural arm twisting". They're comfortable, practical and offer superior control. You don't have to "mess" with a rear derailleur much. Once the cable tension is broken in it doesn't need much adjustment, and is very reliable. Takes seconds to adjust. Internal hubs would be better, to allow an enclosed drivetrain, except that they're still too expensive and the cheaper versions have serious reliability problems. I talked with a shop owner who rents internal gear hub bikes (can't remember if they were SRAM or Shimano), and he wasn't pleased with them.

Originally Posted by thdave
What puzzles me is why you say that bike is more efficient than a Breezer or other Dutch-style bike?
A more comfortable, adjustable, aerodynamic and safer forward riding position. I'd expect its a more mechanically efficient position, as well.

I-Like-To-Bike 05-02-06 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by thdave
bkrownd,

That is a nice bike for commuting--if you add fenders, rack, bell, and chain guard.
Maybe bkrownd has such a problem with the rain in Hawaii because he believes fenders are only for us old timers moseyin' around on the sidewalk outside the nursing home. For someone who discovered the miracle of wicking fabics, he seems a little slow to appreciate the simple things that can make commuter cycling practical for those not interested in being in a danging race mode at all times.

bkrownd 05-02-06 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Maybe bkrownd has such a problem with the rain in Hawaii because he believes fenders are only for us old timers moseyin' around on the sidewalk outside the nursing home. For someone who discovered the miracle of wicking fabics, he seems a little slow to appreciate the simple things that can make commuter cycling practical for those not interested in being in a danging race mode at all times.
Who are you talking about? It certainly isn't me and my racked, fendered and geared-down bikes. Grandma's clunky 3-speed just isn't going to attract riders. Especially young riders who'd want to use their bikes for BOTH work and play. The bike above is the one that inspired me get more interested in cycling again. It combines elements of the BMX and mountain bike of my past (i.e. tough, fun and easy to ride), while being a more stripped-down, roadworthy and efficient vehicle.

apw55 05-02-06 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by bkrownd
They aren't difficult to ride, they're uncomfortable and inefficient....http://barn1.larrythellama.com/thumb...kim/5104.6.jpg
Comfort is an individual thing that two people may never agree on. In terms of riding position, your bike looks to be set up the way I had configured my mountain bike back in the days when I lived in Suburbia and rode it mostly on pavement. It certainly was not uncomfortable but on pavement, over significant distances, I do not find it more comfortable that my old 3 speed.

As for efficiency, I’ve read articles and had people in bike shops quote statistics regarding derailleurs vs. internal hubs, but what does it all really translate to in terms of commute time? My observation is; not much. I have a 2005 sub-20lb road bike with triple chainring and ten speed cassette, and a 1967 40+ lb bike with a 3 speed internal hub. The difference in time that it takes me to cover 15 miles between the two bikes is two minutes. That’s around ½ mph average speed. Significant in a road race but not very important when I’m out for exercise or going to work. The fenders and chainguard are far more important to me when I’m going to work.

Regards,
Alan

Artkansas 05-02-06 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by chipcom
Don't forget the Breezers.

I have always wondered about one thing concerning dutch cycling though...can you attach cleats to them wooden shoes? ;)
Sure, why do you think screws were invented? And there's no problem with the noise. Wooden shoes make enough anyway.


Back in the '80s as a student, I used to have a Dutch Pegasus 10 speed. It was wonderful. You couldn't pop a wheelie with it if you tried because of the frame angles, and it had about 3" of tracking on the front fork so you could ride a perfectly straight line even when 3 sheets to the wind drunk. No quick release, but it did have wingnuts on the wheels. A great bike for use as a student. I wish I could find another.

I-Like-To-Bike 05-02-06 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Artkansas
Sure, why do you think screws were invented? And there's no problem with the noise. Wooden shoes make enough anyway.


Back in the '80s as a student, I used to have a Dutch Pegasus 10 speed. It was wonderful. You couldn't pop a wheelie with it if you tried because of the frame angles, and it had about 3" of tracking on the front fork so you could ride a perfectly straight line even when 3 sheets to the wind drunk. No quick release, but it did have wingnuts on the wheels. A great bike for use as a student. I wish I could find another.
Was Pegasus a Dutch brand? My son's first regular bike was a 3 speed coaster Pegasus with 22" wheels. I bought it used in perfect shape at a German LBS in Pirmasaens in 1989 for DM50 (about $25.) Even in Germany it wasn't easy finding tires and tubes for 22" wheels. Great bike, brought it back to the States where he rode it to elementary school from the 3rd grade up. But my son outgrew it and I sold it at a garage sale. I always wondered what country they were from.

bkrownd 05-02-06 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by apw55
As for efficiency, I’ve read articles and had people in bike shops quote statistics regarding derailleurs vs. internal hubs, but what does it all really translate to in terms of commute time? My observation is; not much.
Well, I wasn't making any statements on efficiency regarding derailleurs vs. internal gear hubs, but I have heard there is a noticeable drag in some of the internal gear hub gears. Whether thats worse than a dirty or poorly tuned derailleur system, I dunno. But oh boy, when you're going uphill or into a stiff wind every little rub feels like pulling a huge anchor along the ground. :eek:


Originally Posted by apw55
Comfort is an individual thing that two people may never agree on.
Ain't that the truth?

huhenio 05-02-06 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Saintly Loser
Right. And that's important to lots of people. I bet quite a few more people would ride to work if they didn't have to wear "funny" clothes.

I don't want to ride to work in spandex, and then have to shower and change. I don't want to keep a wardrobe at work. I want to ride to work in my work clothes, which for me is a suit and tie, or at least a sport coat and slacks. Fenders are a necessity. Internal gears with a chainguard would be wonderful, if I could find a bicycle so equipped at a reasonable price. I'd settle for a derailleur bike with a chainguard, but such a thing does not appear to exist in the US, at least at a reasonable price. I'd be willing to spend more money on a bike with these features if there was somewhere safe to lock it up while I'm at work, but there isn't, so I won't spend more than a couple of hundred bucks on a commuter. So it's the pants clip for me -- dorky but reasonably effective.
I do not have the self restraint, most of the time, to go slow enough so to wear slacks-shirt-tie combo thing. I also bet that the Dutch - god bless them - rarely commute 12 miles (next job will be 24) with some stiff climbs. If I would actually live in town and have to ride a few miles on flat, I would have a beach cruiser with coaster brakes.

spider-man 05-02-06 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by bkrownd
Internal hubs would be better, to allow an enclosed drivetrain, except that they're still too expensive and the cheaper versions have serious reliability problems. I talked with a shop owner who rents internal gear hub bikes (can't remember if they were SRAM or Shimano), and he wasn't pleased with them.

My internally geared hub cost $3. No reliability problems, serious or otherwise. No noticeable drag either. The bike weighed under 25 lbs. until I put a basket and steel fenders on it.

This is first-hand experience, not something I heard or was told by somebody who was trying to sell me something.

bkrownd 05-02-06 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by spider-man
My internally geared hub cost $3.
And how many gears? meh.

spider-man 05-02-06 09:11 PM
Three, although I have pondered adding a second chainring to make it a six-speed, but then New Orleans is not so hilly as Hilo.

robmcl 05-03-06 05:09 AM
Originally Posted by San Rensho
I really believe a good marketing campaign can sell refrigerators to Eskimos. Just look at the recent explosion of SUV sales. Madison Avenue has convinced the majority of Americans to buy a vehicle that they will never use for its intended purpose, to go off road! What percentage of purchasers actually use an SUV to tow or go off road? Very few.

When everyone started getting SUVs years ago a buddy of mine got a Land Rover. I told him, lets go off-roading on some property my relative owns and he said "Are you kidding, I'm not going to get this dirty, I just paid a hundred bucks to have it detailed!"
Nice thought but I don't think it much reflects reality when it comes to bikes. My first question is when was the last time you saw an advertisement for a bike in a major media outlet? Second, I believe most bikes or least the biggest fraction are still sold through the LBS, who thus makes the most decisions about bike inventories. Many LBSs are still local, independent operations and are hardly components of major corporative marketing machines. I used to have a friend of a friend who owned his own shop. This guy would spend his winter researching different bikes. He would go to a bike show and look at different bikes, then he would make his order . . . and guess what, he made his order based on what he thought his cliental would buy. These guys are not stupid. They spend day after day in their shops talking to people about bikes. If a perspective buyer does not like the bikes that he has, then they go to another shop.

This begs the question. If you guys think these bikes are so much more unique than some of the current bikes available i.e., hybrid bikes, urban bikes, comfort bikes etc, and the public would be so much better off with them, why don't you open a shop and start selling them. Or better yet why don't you think some else already has not? Actually, I think it has already been tried. My parents bought a pair of Specialized bikes that fit your profile in the mid 90's, and I think a previous poster showed a picture of something similar. From what I was told by my parents, these bikes are no longer available from Specialized.

chicbicyclist 05-03-06 06:00 AM
Rob, manufacturers are already responding with products like the Breezer and even a few major ones are starting to come out with bikes with fenders and racks. More manufacturers are also coming out with the afformentioned "comfort" bike as a response to consumers looking for more comfort in thier ride, though they are admittedly focused on the recreational market. Wether the comfort aspect will spread to the other emerging commuter market remains to be seen.

Saintly Loser 05-03-06 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by bkrownd
Who said anyone needs to wear "funny" clothes? I commuted in shorts/jeans and t-shirt/sweatshirt for 10 years before I learned about the joy of wicking fabrics.
Great, but I can't wear shorts or T-shirts or jeans to work. I want to be able to commute in my work clothes. I do, but the bike is less than ideal. I'd love to find something along the lines of a Dutch-style commuter -- fully enclosed chain, internal gears (and brakes, too), fenders, integrated generator and lights, etc.

bkrownd 05-03-06 06:21 AM
Originally Posted by spider-man
Three, although I have pondered adding a second chainring to make it a six-speed, but then New Orleans is not so hilly as Hilo.
So I hear. :) You could go singlespeed.

There's an interesting plan. I wonder what set of gear inches that would make? My first commuter bike was really a "three-speed" - it was a mountain bike, so most of the gears were useless on the road. I only used the top two gears on the big ring, and my "third" gear was to pedal standing. ;)

bkrownd 05-03-06 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by Saintly Loser
Great, but I can't wear shorts or T-shirts or jeans to work. I want to be able to commute in my work clothes. I do, but the bike is less than ideal. I'd love to find something along the lines of a Dutch-style commuter -- fully enclosed chain, internal gears (and brakes, too), fenders, integrated generator and lights, etc.
Why would you want your work clothes to be sweaty, rain wet, smelly, stained, etc? Appropriate clothing makes the ride more comfortable, and change of clothes is the most important part of freshening up when you arrive.

ZachS 05-03-06 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by robmcl
Nice thought but I don't think it much reflects reality when it comes to bikes. My first question is when was the last time you saw an advertisement for a bike in a major media outlet? Second, I believe most bikes or least the biggest fraction are still sold through the LBS, who thus makes the most decisions about bike inventories. Many LBSs are still local, independent operations and are hardly components of major corporative marketing machines. I used to have a friend of a friend who owned his own shop. This guy would spend his winter researching different bikes. He would go to a bike show and look at different bikes, then he would make his order . . . and guess what, he made his order based on what he thought his cliental would buy. These guys are not stupid. They spend day after day in their shops talking to people about bikes. If a perspective buyer does not like the bikes that he has, then they go to another shop.
then why do LBS salesmen work so hard to sell new customers racing bikes, mountain and road, that they don't need? there is not much profit in bulletproof commuting machines that will last for decades, but there is in performance-oriented bikes that "need" upgrading every few years.

apw55 05-03-06 07:16 AM
Originally Posted by robmcl
Second, I believe most bikes or least the biggest fraction are still sold through the LBS,
You’re a bit off on this point. According the National Bicycle Dealers Association, 16% of the bicycles sold in the U.S. in 2005 were sold by Specialty Bike Shops while 75% were sold by mass marketers (WalMart, Target, etc).

Originally Posted by robmcl
who thus makes the most decisions about bike inventories. Many LBSs are still local, independent operations and are hardly components of major corporative marketing machines.
But, you may be on the right track in terms of influence. The 16% of bicycles sold accounted for 47% of the dollars. I would guess that, as you’ve suggested, the LBS owners still have a strong influence on what is produced on the high end and WalMart, etc. may well follow these trends.


Regards,
Alan

I-Like-To-Bike 05-03-06 07:18 AM
Originally Posted by robmcl
Second, I believe most bikes or least the biggest fraction are still sold through the LBS, who thus makes the most decisions about bike inventories.
I believe you incorrect and that about 85% of bikes sold in the US are sold by mass merchandisers. Someone who feels like looking it up can correct me if I'm wrong. It is immaterial if BF types turn their noses up at such bikes. I don't doubt that the biggest fraction of high end enthusiast bikes are sold new at LBS' but they are only a small fraction of the total sales units.
Originally Posted by robmcl
He would go to a bike show and look at different bikes, then he would make his order . . . and guess what, he made his order based on what he thought his cliental would buy. These guys are not stupid. They spend day after day in their shops talking to people about bikes. If a perspective buyer does not like the bikes that he has, then they go to another shop.
And when the dealer goes to the US bike show what products are being displayed by US wholesalers?

Reminds me of the US auto market in the 70's when the dealers could go to the Auto Show and not find a car offered by US manufacturers that even resembled a quality small car or pickup. And the dealers smiled because they knew that the market for small cars was just a passing fad and they "knew" what their customers wanted.

In fact that sounds like today, too; except that the dealers know that their customers do want small cars and the ones still in business get them, with Asian nameplates.

San Rensho 05-03-06 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by robmcl
Nice thought but I don't think it much reflects reality when it comes to bikes. My first question is when was the last time you saw an advertisement for a bike in a major media outlet? Second, I believe most bikes or least the biggest fraction are still sold through the LBS, who thus makes the most decisions about bike inventories. Many LBSs are still local, independent operations and are hardly components of major corporative marketing machines. I used to have a friend of a friend who owned his own shop. This guy would spend his winter researching different bikes. He would go to a bike show and look at different bikes, then he would make his order . . . and guess what, he made his order based on what he thought his cliental would buy. These guys are not stupid. They spend day after day in their shops talking to people about bikes. If a perspective buyer does not like the bikes that he has, then they go to another shop.

This begs the question. If you guys think these bikes are so much more unique than some of the current bikes available i.e., hybrid bikes, urban bikes, comfort bikes etc, and the public would be so much better off with them, why don't you open a shop and start selling them. Or better yet why don't you think some else already has not? Actually, I think it has already been tried. My parents bought a pair of Specialized bikes that fit your profile in the mid 90's, and I think a previous poster showed a picture of something similar. From what I was told by my parents, these bikes are no longer available from Specialized.
Ok, I'll concede it might not be Madison Avenue that drives bike sales, but I still believe that most consumers are sheep (present company on this board excepted, of course) and are convinced by outside forces to buy a certain product. So for bicycles, manufacturers, sellers, LBSs essentially convince people to buy bikes that may not fit their purposes, because those people make money from it.

Its not the bicycling masses, saying "we demand fully suspended fat tire bikes to ride on suburban cul de sacs". Consumers hear (and I concede this may come from LBSs, the media, and not necessrily Madison Avenue)that "wow, mountain bikes are now cool, so I have to have one", or "Johhny is old enough for a bike and all his friends have mountain bikes, so I'll get him one."

Sellers and manufacturers wouldn't leave something as important as the decision of what to manufacure to the consumer. If that were the case why are millions spent an advertising each year. Advertising tells consumers what they want. If it didn't work, and very well, manufacturers woudn't spend their money on advertising.

jordanb 05-03-06 08:37 AM
^-- Actually I think this board and things like it are a big part of the problem. Concepts about biking spread by word of mouth, and when everyone in the country is a spandex-clad road-warrior, it's difficult for normal people to get good advice on the type of bike to use to get around town. Espeically when the road warriors absolutly despise the proper type of bike and will talk **** about it for hours given the opportunity. ISTR that someone tried to import the Kronan (swiss army bike) to the US some time ago on the grounds that it's an exceptionally well-built bike that has all the stuff a utility cyclist needs (rack, fenders, etc) and will last forever without maintence. It bombed because people have been trained so well here to never buy a bike that weighs more than 25 pounds.

By the way, I road my lugged-steel Schwinn Racer 3-speed on a double-centry to Milwaukee and back, and beat most of the road bikers. So all this talk about cruisers not being painfully slow or one being unable to go very far on them is total bull****. The only reason why bikes noweays are titanium and carbon fibre is because they can get suckers to buy that crap.

Nightshade 05-03-06 09:17 AM
"Ok, I'll concede it might not be Madison Avenue that drives bike sales, but I still believe that most consumers are sheep (present company on this board excepted, of course) and are convinced by outside forces to buy a certain product. So for bicycles, manufacturers, sellers, LBSs essentially convince people to buy bikes that may not fit their purposes, because those people make money from it.

Its not the bicycling masses, saying "we demand fully suspended fat tire bikes to ride on suburban cul de sacs". Consumers hear (and I concede this may come from LBSs, the media, and not necessrily Madison Avenue)that "wow, mountain bikes are now cool, so I have to have one", or "Johhny is old enough for a bike and all his friends have mountain bikes, so I'll get him one."

Sellers and manufacturers wouldn't leave something as important as the decision of what to manufacure to the consumer. If that were the case why are millions spent an advertising each year. Advertising tells consumers what they want. If it didn't work, and very well, manufacturers woudn't spend their money on advertising."

"Actually I think this board and things like it are a big part of the problem. Concepts about biking spread by word of mouth, and when everyone in the country is a spandex-clad road-warrior, it's difficult for normal people to get good advice on the type of bike to use to get around town. Espeically when the road warriors absolutly despise the proper type of bike and will talk **** about it for hours given the opportunity.

By the way, I road my lugged-steel Schwinn Racer 3-speed on a double-centry to Milwaukee and back, and beat most of the road bikers. So all this talk about cruisers not being painfully slow or one being unable to go very far on them is total bull****. The only reason why bikes noweays are titanium and carbon fibre is because they can get suckers to buy that crap."
These two quotes tell alot about why bicycle type selection is so limited in the U.S.A. now. It also
reminds me very much of the type of marketing done by the Big 3 auto makers in the 1970's when
gas guzzling smog belching mega hulks were the only cars that were available because that was what
the Big 3 wanted to sell us. Then the Japanese came a long with better cars and took their market
away from them. The Japanese so changed the game that the Big 3 HAD to change or die. Well, they did
change to little to late.

So it will be for bicycle makers who ignore the ground swell now building to offer true user "anyman's"
bicycles for pure utilitarian use by people who don't give a damn about spandex or clip in pedals. People
who have back troubles or shoulder or knee issues that still must use bicycles for everyday travel need
bicycles configured for them and NOT the spandex crowd.

Sure,most of the area where the Dutch bikes are used of flat but then again so is much of the area in the
U.S. where these 'Dutch" bikes are needed. If you look at Europe city bikes they too are either Dutch or
Dutch like in configuration. All that said, the first bike maker to pick up on this trend will win the larger
market share if they price and market their "Dutch" bike to the masses with Dutch quality and componets. They will also have to price these "Dutch" bikes right to get past the "toy" aspect of mass
marketing. The more adults that buy them will, in time, make the "Dutch" bike more acceptable.


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