^-- He also underestimates the utility of hubs and drum breaks. I've got hubs on all of my (3) bikes now and I won't ride a derailleur in the city. I silently cursed my derailleur every time some ******* cut me off and I had to get going again in high gear for the two years I rode with one.

And drum breaks are brilliant in the rain, which everyone who lives car-free is going to have to ride in from time to time.

I suspect that’s true, but I’m not quite sure why 50 lbs has become the “standard” weight for a “Dutch” bike. While I don’t have specs on a Dutch made commuter, Breezers which have a similar construction to the modern variations, weight in the 32 lb range. Probably more than your cross bike, but far from 50 lbs.

Regards,
Alan

For a glimpse of current Dutch bikes take a peek at:
http://www.cycle-heaven.co.uk/gazelle.html (Englsh)

For more details including weight in kg, click around starting here with the Stad Comfort (City Comfort) line and work though the other styles:
http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/productcate...php?idParent=2



All weight wienies, don't forget to check out the carbon frame with 8 speed hub at:
http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/product.php...25&idSegment=8

I'm back from the rainforest. 6 miles of bumping over lava rocks and sloshing through bogs. Rawr, I am an offroad beast!

This is probably true. The road/racer style bike certainly was not good for everybody. It is not a design that you just hop on and start riding. I remember the first time I got on a road bike, I fell over with a clank. It was embarrassing and painful.

Yes, the mountain bike brought the riding position back onto the saddle - just not far enough back to really give the average rider all the comfort possible in bicycle design.

Good perspective, I-Like-to-Bike

Yes, I do agree, absolutely. That’s why I’ve tried to suggest that the traditional English (or Dutch or what every term you prefer) 3 speed should not be completely dismissed as an option. Especially when they are being thrown away, sold for next to nothing in thrift shops and refurbished and sold by shops at prices less than low end, department store bikes. Almost anyone can afford one.

Back to the your original topic: Perhaps I’ve been too pessimistic. “Bicycling” has named the Novara Transfer as the Editor’s Choice for Best Commuter Bike. It beat out the Bianchi Milano and the Giant Cypress. All come with internal hubs and the Novara and Giant fall into the Euro style bike category that this thread was opened to discuss. To me, the Milano looks more like a cruiser but, if it works, who cares? My real point here is that this sort of mention could help the cause. Now, if Cannondale will just release the Vintage Nexus or Street Nexus here in the U.S……

Regards,
Alan

This sheds more light on the subject. These bikes are not as performance depraved and are more updated than you guys made them out to be. The argument I was hearing was that we needed a heavy as a tank bike with little or no gearing for maximum durability . . . but that’s OK because no practical commuter is going to ride more than a few miles on level ground anyway. Anything less is not utilitarian. Thus the discussions on commuter distance etc.

I like the Nexus 7 speed hub. It is an upgrade over fixed gear/ single speeds, which I mistakenly thought were part of Dutch bikes, and 3 speeds. I think it offers a decent range of gears with the benefits of simplicity, sturdiness, and a rear break. It is certainly not for all situations but I am cool with it for short to mid range commuting.

You appear to have reasonable choices for frames. Although I never saw a bike that was less than 40 lbs, that is a little deceiving because that also includes the rack, lock, light etc, and depending on your choices for accessories that could possibly be improved some. I have a cromoly ridged MTB frame, which is actually quite light. I don’t think you need anything more than that for a commuter.

I don’t know what size tires are on these bikes but since we don’t have so much cobble stone in this country there is no reason why you could not run 1.25” to 1.75” tires that many commuters run. They may have these tires on them already.

The handle bars appear to be flat MTB style. For some reason I pictured old time mustache style bars, which can work too but I really did not see an advantage.

The generator hub lighting I am not so sold on. It is hard to make judgments from a web page but they would have to work significantly better than the 1970‘s era generator head light I had. There is also a significant resistance in generating electricity. Is the object of these lights to see or to be seen? I suspect that this might be OK on a bike path but not sure if you would be better served by a pair of blinkies or a rechargeable light in traffic.

Again I can not really tell what the lock is all about but I am suspicious. The lock would have to work at least as well as a U-lock, which in my situations can be stored by attaching it to a clamp on the frame. I suspect that in a bike friendly culture such as Holland racks are easy to come buy. In America we so often have to clamp onto poles, railings, fences, or anything else we can find so I am not sure if the U-lock is a little more flexible for that.

There is nothing functionally wrong with the chain guard. I just think they are ugly; at least in that style. The same for the treatment of the top tube. It really does not do much for me anesthetically but to each their own.

Having said all this, prepackaged commuter bikes are good. I saw the following bike, the Novara Transfer, at REI three weeks ago. It is packaged with all the accessories including a chain guard (which I like much better), although you need to add a lock. It is not purely Dutch in every detail but still very much a commuter bike. I really don’t think we need to have purely Dutch bikes because as I said previously equipment tends to be optimized for needs. I am not sure if a bike that is optimized for Holland is the best for all situations here.

http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...ory_rn=4502048

Enough said on this subject. The weather is supposed to be nice this weekend and I have a bike to go ride. You at least could give me credit for stirring up enough controversy to keep this thread alive as long as it has:) .

It is funny the way things work... it is very "in" to buy a well equipped car. Yet, it is "out" to buy a well equipped bike. I could care less about being "out"--I'm riding to work in all sorts of conditions. Besides, I admit I'm a geek of sorts. I only care about having a bike that is appropriate for my commute!

The Breezer bike is just like these bikes offered by the Dutch company. My version, the Villager, with its 7 speed Nexus hub, weighs 31.5 pounds. That is a reasonable amount of weight, considering all you get. The gearing works well for me--I have two 125 vertical foot climbs with reasonable grades on my daily route. Otherwise, I would have saved money and just got the 3-speed. For those with 1000 foot vertical climbs--you need a derailer.

Regarding equipment--I love my generator powered lights. I don't need lights often--but it is nice to know that if I have to work late, I've got them. No mess with batteries at all and there is plenty of light. They are well secured to the frame, never rattle, and are bright and reliable. It takes noticeably more energy to pedal, but it is only the first few pedals where you feel it. It is a minor drag after that.

The built in ring lock is just a device that prevents someone riding off with your bike. I use mine all the time at work--which is a secured facility. It locks a ring that goes around the wheel and between spokes. It doesn't stop someone from picking the bike up and carrying off with it. I bring a cable lock when I go to a store or any unsecured building.

For 7 gears I'd much prefer an old-fashioned rear derailleur - cheap, trusty, simple and efficient.

Again, remember your advanced skill level. To the Joe Average's a 'derailer' is a huge pain in the
a$$ to adjust and maintain which makes hub gears a winner.

What are you talking about? It doesn't take ANY "advanced skill level" to operate a rear derailleur! The thing is brain-dead simple to shift, and with a single chainring there's no possibility of cross-chaining. Shift up, shift down, totally reliable. I haven't adjusted the rear derailleur on my commuter bike in over a year. I don't know how many years my Trek 820 went without any adjustment.

Who mentioned "operating" of a derailer?? Sure, I know that makers make them 'brain dead' simple
to use. The issue that you missed is when the DON'T work 'brain dead" simple. Besided, YOUR
experience with derailers is really a one in a billion not reflecting anything BUT your experience.

For Joe Average's (who by the way this thread is all about) see a derailer (on average) and think......
Crap! I don't want to mess with that damn thing! Then many will (maybe) see a hub gear and think.....
Great! No damn thing a majig to fuss with. I'll buy this one.

You may not prefer hub gears but they provide the Joe Average's with a clean easy way to ride a
bike not drive a car.

This thread is pretty funny. Anyway, regarding derailers (Sheldon Brown spelling): I just made it up a local Utah mountain last week and had a bit of trouble with the derailer and cogs. They got jammed with snow! So I did the same 45 mile ride next day on my singlespeed, with sandals. Took just a little more pushing, up the steep parts in addition to the snowy parts. Cold on the sandaled toes! But nothing to jam up, eh?
My wife and I have truly appreciated the ability in Germany to purchase full equipped bikes. We don't have to go through the issues of fitting the fenders, lights, bell, kickstand, chainguard, lock, racks and such. Just clip on the basket and go! By the way, all of these accessories do indeed add weight. One may well start with a naked 25 pound bike (12 kilo), but it swiftly becomes heavier. Fortunately, in Europe we can save weight by not wearing helmets, since it's against the law for cars to hit cyclists. My fully equipped Kalkhoff (7 speed Sram hub) has done fine service commuting, day touring and long-distance touring, including Alps. But it is truly a pig to carry up stairs into trains.

It is. It has gotten out of hand and I have done a lot to contribute to it. I don't know how we got to this point but it just does not die.

Good Job:)

Regards,
Alan

Well, the Milano is not a cruiser bike. It's a half-assed attempt at a mountian bike with a hub in it. Everything on it except the hub is speced for MTBs.

I bought a Milano thinking I was getting a modern cruiser, and damn am I disappointed. I'm beginning to think it's $800 completly wasted. I mean, that's not to say it's a horrible bike, but when the Racer I got for $65 is more comfortable, what the **** is the point? I was expecting the Racer to become my backup bike but the opposite has ended up being the case.

I'm debating on sinking another $50 or so into getting van dessel mustache bars (requires putting all new cables on it) or just quit throwing good money after bad (I've already repaced the seat, tires, and stem, plus putting racks, lights, etc on it) and trying to get whatever I can in resale out of it.

You (and at least one other poster) are stirring up controversy by pontificating on a subject of which you have little/no knowledge or experience, and only based on what you "heard" or have chosen to hear.
I will shed some more light on the subject for you. Most of the commuting bicyclists I saw commuting in The Netherlands from 1986 -2002 were cycling on the "performance depraved" bicycles as portrayed in http://www.gazelle.nl/nl/productcate...=2&idSegment=1
And not the more upscale ones offered on the other pages of the Gazelle website.
Note that Gazelle is a provider of high end commuting bicycles and there are many other providers, usually at lower prices, but most bicycles actually seen on the streets look very much like the basic Stad Cycles offered by Gazelle. Yes, they are heavy (by American "performance" standards). But the Dutch have figured out that cycling without significant hills reduces the need to worship the gear count and weight shaving tricks of the "performance enhanced" commuter. These are most definitely practical bikes for commuting any credible distance in comfort with reliability and minimal maintenance or tinkering.

Apparently there is at least one "practical commuter" in a flat place like Chicago who can't figure that out.

. . . . and thank you too for all your pleasantries.

No Problem. Providing a little light on the subject is my pleasure. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/flamethrow.gif

I don't mind providing enlightenment to those who stir up "controversy" on bicycling subjects of which they know little, or view only from a narrow minded dogmatic or provincial viewpoint.

Enough babble about Dutch bikes. When do we get to import more Dutch women?

You forgot to mention that these same folk's also do a HUGE dis-service to the cause of cycling by
discouraging more Joe & Jane Average's from even considering cycling's real value for transportation,
fun, health and conservation of critical resources.

Bicycle must become more main stream in the developed world. We, as cyclist, should help cause that
to happen as soon as possible.

Agree that Bkrouwnd probably overestimates the average riders ability to even properly shift a derailleur, much less maintain it. I've ridden friends der bikes and they've said to me "Oh, don't shift it, its in a gear I like!" Once a three speed is set up right, it will last for years with little or no maintenance.

Good lord, it takes a shop or friend all of 5 minutes to adjust a rear derailleur, and it's good for a long time after that. If people insist on pretending that things are more difficult or "scary" than they are, its going to hurt public perception of cycling, and its going to hurt the choice of quality bicycles available to everyone.

Speaking anecdotes when it comes to derailers, I've been having trouble with mine lately. It would derail my chain unexpectedly when I'm going from a dead stop causing me to hurt my crotch really bad. Ouch!

Have you had someone look at it? Perhaps your chain or cassette is worn out.