I did change the rear spocket on my S-A S-5 hub on my Raleigh Sprite to a 22 tooth model. I forget what it had when I bought the whole bike for $40 at a thrift store in 1973. I don't believe I ever changed the rear sprocket on the 3 speed Sports I had for 30 years. Never changed it on the the Superbe either.

I stopped using Raleigh 3 and 5 speeds in 1997 when I converted to using German Sachs 3 speeds on 28" wheels (700C size) for commuting, and added 5 and 7 speed bikes in the next couple of years while living in Germany. I did change from 18T to 19T on the 3 speed. The 7 speed came with a 19t sprocket and I have changed it once due to wear but only to another 19t sprocket.

Let's be fair here, mate. For the last 30 yrs drailers have more or less pushed internal hubs out of the
American market because ,until recently, sport type bikes ruled. It's only with high fuel prices that
internal hubs are geting noticed again due to "those fancy derailer thingies bother me" thinking of
hard core simple commuters. I know given the choice between a hub and a derailer the derailer will
loose everytime. I just don't care to mess with them.

Internal hubs are more robust than you give them credit for really. Ever wonder why you don't find
mention about hubs needing the level of repair common for derailers?? Well, hubs don't need repair
that often, mate. Not at all. The 3 speed hub has been in service for decades all over the world with
many hubs turning in decades of service without a single repair!!

No, sorry. I will not run a derailer anymore..............

I'm a hardcore commuter and have been for nearly 30 years. Derailers offer some benefits that internal hubs don't. One is weight, another range and still another is simplicity...yes simplicity.

If you ride in an area where it is flat or relatively flat, a 3 speed hub may be all you need. Most derailered bikes are geared for flat places also, but, and I've learned this through many years of riding in a hilly city, derailered bikes can be adjusted and adapted for use in areas where you have lots of hill climbing far easier then internal gear bikes. All of my bikes range from at least a 27" low gear to a 110 high gear. Most have even lower gears. For me riding in the Denver area, this is a necessity.

As for simplicity, what could be simpler than a derailered bike. A cable, a derailer, chain and cogs. Compare that to an internal geared hub, you have shafts and gears and all kinds of stuff inside. Look at a cut away of a 14 speed hub and it's a nightmare of gears. I count at least 17 gears and a whole bunch of shafts and bushing. You'd better hope you don't have to fix anything on the inside of that mess.

Good grief! Of all the internal hub you could've picked you chose the Rolhoff 14 speed! Comparing a
Rolhoff to a simple 3 speed is like comparing a skateboard to a Rolls Royce!!

You and I both know that a Rolhoff is a very special hub BUILT FOR ABUSE NO OTHER HUB CAN HANDLE.
That's why they cost a $1,000 each!!!!!!!! A shimano 3 speed hub cost about $60 +/- and will last the
average rider a lifetime barring any abuse.

You are free to chose whatever gear type you feel suits the job at hand. So it should be for any rider.
I agree that if hills, that are of note, are involved then there is only one choice.....the derailer system.
That said, one CAN get by very well on flat or rolling terrain with a internal hub quite nicely without
all , or any, of grief a derailer system can , and does, cause.

It's also fair to note that any manufacture will choose parts that generate repeat business. That's
the reason that there are few internal hub makers.....hubs don't gernerate much repeat business.
They are to reliable.

Eshvanu isn't looking at 3 speed hubs. He's looking at 7 speed hubs which are hardly less complicated than the Rolhoff. I'm not trying to talk he out of it, I'm just trying to point out the limitations. Even a 3 speed hub is more complicated than a derailer system, and heavier, without the availability of the range of a derailer bike. Derailer bikes don't require that much in terms of adjustment or maintainence either. Any issue with shifting that a derailer bike has is going to be pretty much the same issues that an internal hub has, with the exception of damaging the derailer in a crash but even that is rare. I've only managed to do it once and even then it was a simple repair. Other problems are going to be cable related as are 99.9% of all shifting problems...on either system.

As for range, a 46/18 would have a low of 33 gear inches. A derailered bike could easily have a low gear of 27" and would be that hard to get something much, much lower. Trust me, Eshvanu, if you are riding out of downtown to the west, your knees will a whole lot happier with you for that kind of range. A 33" gear is more along the lines of what a studly young guy would ride...not something us old farts like

Good discussion.

Here's a couple more thoughts on derailers--that although they are reliable and last a long time, they require regular adjustment (very rare on the internal gear hubs). Also, they need more cleaning and the rider needs more cleaning. Not everyone wears bicycle shorts when they ride!

I bet if you survey the bikes stored in folks homes, a significantly greater percentage of derailer bikes need adjustment when compared to internal gear hub bikes.

Internal gear hubs are well suited for the midwest, much of eastern US, and a good portion of Canada. But, clearly, derailers are significantly better for riding in mountainous areas. There is no debating that, as far as I'm concerned.

Other then cable adjustment, derailers require no other adjustment. Once the limiting screws are set, and as long as someone doesn't mess with them , only cable adjustment might be needed. But internally geared bikes have the same cables which would also need periodic adjustment and replacement.

As for being cleaner, neither system is going to be any cleaner than the other since both have chains that need lubricated on a regular basis. One minor issue with singlespeed/fixed gear/internally geared bikes is chain wear. Derailer equipped bikes don't has as much of an issue with slight lengthening of the chain due to wear as the other bikes do.

My internal gear hub bike cables have liners and don't need adjusting. Not so on my derailer bike. I don't know if that's just my bikes or not. Also, I'm pretty sure the cable doesn't move as far on the internal gear hub and that isn't as sensitive. I could be wrong.

Chains are cleaner on internal gear hubs since they are typically covered with a chain guard. Also, you don't have to clean sprockets.

All new cables are going to stretch some which is why you need to adjust derailer bikes after a new cable is installed. Once the cable is done stretching, no other adjustment is usually needed. The stretching process may take a little while however. Maybe internal gears aren't that sensitive but I bet you still have something to adjust cable length on your shifter.


That's a function of the bike, not the gear system. There are derailer bikes with chainguards also which would be just as clean. As for sprockets, I don't clean them either. I have no need to unless I pick up a weed while mountain biking.

Front derailers (derailleurs for everybody but Sheldon) and chainguards don't seem to happily coexist. And lay off the weed, ya carpet smoker!

My internal hub can beat up your derailer! : My derailer can beat up your internal hub ! + infinity.

And you know this how? As to the 7 speed vs the Rolhoff 14 speed they couldn't be more different.
As the number of gears in a hub go up so does the complication.

Unless I mis-read the OP question simplicty and reliblity are the desired featues for mostly flat terrain riding. THAT to me screams simple 3 speed hubs. It's very true that if any major hills are noted then
the whole question changes to favor derailers.

As to which gearing method is best for the OP let's say that you and I have discussed this enough to
allow the OP to decide what is BEST FOR HIS USE and move one, mate. Your choice is no more
correct for all occasions than is mine.

Was busy all day yesterday, no time to check this thread. Sooooo... Bit of a lengthy response here.

thdave and Twebs46 - Thanks for the Breezer input. That was one of the first bikes I put on my list. If the 2007 is that expensive, it won't be on my list for long. Going to a Breezer dealer (LBS) tomorrow to check out the pricing.

Katysax - I appreciate the input there. Recumbents just don't appeal to me. They are almost all rear-derailleur, and I'm not going that route (see below). More, the sitting position on a recumbent seems to me to put a person at a disadvantage in an emergency where one has to drop the bike or try to jump a curb. My back will hold up to an upright position, I just can't use drop handlebars and the "aerodynamic" crouch.

I'm inclined to agree, especially as my spreadsheet is showing a pattern -- The shaft drive bicycles are more expensive to outfit because few come with all necessary items. The ones that have all necessary items are generally more expensive than chain drives similarly equipped. I can buy a full-chain cover if I decide to do so, so not really worried about that factor any more. Finally, shaft drives are coming along, but are still in their (relative) technologic infancy. I'll wait a bit before I go that way, I do believe. Thank You.

jyossarian - One of those 2 hubs is on every chain-driven bike still in my list. Looking more and more as if the 3-speed bikes aren't going to make my final cut.

cyccommute - As I understand, fenders also help keep some of the dust and grit off the rider, too. So, my bike will have fenders even though we seldom need them. I was walking on the commute to my old job, and I've noticed the bicycle paths through the Denver parks are often wet from sprinklers in Spring/Summer/Autumn. No need to get stripes just because I didn't plan well. -grin- Aluminum vs steel frame isn't much of a concern to me. I've had experience with both types in the past, and with current technology I believe either will serve me well.

ActionJeans - Two cents noted. You might be right about the desireability factor, which could lead to unwanted notice by bike thieves. A factor to consider here in Denver, with a similar crime rate to all major cities in USA.

cyccommute and tightwad - Thanks for the debate on derailleur vs hub. I've already decided the hub is the way I'm going, and have no interest in furthering the debate on this thread. I believe we've made sufficient progress with hub technology that I won't regret my decision. Also, the maintenance factor on derailleur models is simply more than I want to deal with. I'm lazy, and a quick wipe down/chain lube once a week appeals far more to me than dealing with gritty gears front and rear on any regular basis, as well as cable adjustments which greatly bothered me on past bikes.

Another factor is the mention of gear ratios. I'm not interested in becoming a gearing expert, I just want the bike to go into a simple gear that lets me peddle appropriately for the terrain. If I'm unable to climb hills at first without walking up, so be it. As I stated in the OP, I don't care about mountain biking or racing. (Note there is a "period" at the end of that sentence) I've no need to prove anything to anyone, nor do I care to make the effort required to understand front-and-rear gearing. Too much work for a lazy old man like me. I am simply looking for a good commuter bicycle that meets my needs, serves well, and lasts a goodly time after the origina purchase and outfitting without further investment in time, effort, or money on my part.

lol fender1. My feelings exactly.

Thanks to all for the input here. Greatly appreciated. I expect to complete my spreadsheet sometime this week, and start seriously shopping for prices next. Currently I've got the Bianchi Milano, Biomega Electra, Biria Safety Bike, Breezer Citizen and Uptown, Burley Runabout 7, Cannondale Street and Daytripper, Jamis Commuter, and Novara Transfer and Fusion in the list. Once it's done, I'll repost here for people who'd like to see it.

Not to muddy the water regarding you choices but if you are inclined to create your own bike based on your specific needs rather than buy a stock bike, this might be an option. If not, good luck! Please see the attached thread.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...inn+Conversion

Two points to consider....
First, if you want to cut chain maintance on your hub bike cruise E-bay for a full chain case like they
use in Europe. I've seen them pop up once in while cheap.

Secondly, If you like a bike but not the riding position please know that it can be changed with a combo
of new "adjustable" stem & new handle bars or just the "adjustable" stem. The seat might need changed
too but wait 'till your back & arms check in as to their comfort levels. These modifications are very
reasonable in cost while improving your comfort level greatly if you need to make them. Very few bikes
are "just right" out of the box.

Very best of luck. Keep on riding, mate.

I need to take issue with what people here are telling you that you need.

If your commute will be 20 miles one way, then nothing short of a road, touring or cyclocross bike will do the trick.

The main advantage of drop bars is that they offer a range of different hand positions. After an hour on the bike you will need it.

You say you are not "out to win any races" but with a 20 mile ride, you want the least amount of wasted energy as possible. Only a bike with road or touring geometry will do that.

As far as maintence, derailleurs are not that complicated. There's one barrel aduster and two limit screws on each one. The limit screws should never need adustment once they are set properly and the barrel adjuster might only need a minimal amount of tweaking every few weeks or so. I don't think I've touched mine in over a month. And I'm super picky about shifting -- if it's not perfect I stop and fix it.

But here's something to think about with internally geared hubs. If something goes catostrophically wrong with your gears, you have to replace your whole wheel whereas my cassette pops on and off with ease (and the right $20 worth of tools.)

If you want reliable, get bar end or downtube shifters. If they ever go out of adjustment you can just turn the dial to friction mode and it doesn't matter how out of whack your drivetrain is, your bike will still work enough to get you home. And your front derrailleur will be non-indexed so you never need to worry about it rubbing against your chain.

fender1 - Maybe in the future.

Tightwad - Aye, a full chain cover is something I'll want at some point. Whichever bike I get, I'll make sure I can mount a full cover on it.

I have a few months before I start working again. I'll use that time to get into biking condition, learn the best routes around my chosen area, and tune the bike to meet my needs. I believe by the time I find suitable employment I'll be ready and able to bike commute daily. Well, except in snow. I know some folks who ride in any weather, but snow is just too tricky for my tastes. Cold I can deal with, snow/slush/ice I don't want to deal with.

I'm sorry, but 20 miles on a Bianchi Milano just does not seem fun. Nor does that long of a ride on an mtb (the longest I did on an mtb in one day was 36 and that's when I started shopping for a road bike).

I'm not saying he needs to go out and get a Disco Trek. But a bike like the Bianchi Volpe or Surly Crosscheck would be fast, rugged, and comfortable.

OK, ILTB, keep it cool. Saw the trap there already

MrCjolsen, I can not use drop bars because of my back. There is no option to do so. Further, I don't have to be fast or efficient in energy use. It's a bike commute, not a race or a rugged-ride adrenaline rush. If I can't get to the destination in a reasonable amount of time, I'll explore other options, including our local mass transit version of bike'n'ride on bus or commuter train.

Also, the derailleur debate was already quashed on this thread. I'm simply not interested.

I appreciate your input. However, you and I have different perspectives and approaches to bicycle commuting.

There seems to be a marked difference in perspective based on age with this thread. Younger folk's
seem to prefer the more "sporty" bikes with derailers and such while an older more mature rider
would want it as simple as possible. This simplicity is what I see in the OP from what believe to be
an older more mature rider.

Ya see.....
As you age life's viewpoint takes on a slower more muted pace and "go fast" just doesn't mean that
much to you anymore. Getting there in comfort & no breakdowns does............

Well said, Tightwad, and quite correct. I've passed my adrenaline rush days. My lunacy back then is part of the reason I can't use drop bars any more.

Comfort and dependability are what's important to me nowadays. Keep in mind, though, one can get comfort and dependability in a Cadillac.

I ride a Surly Crosscheck for commuting--and everything else for that matter. Bought in Denver at Alpha Bicycle. Two back surgeries in two years means drops are out--I use the Jones H-bar though in retrospect a nice riser bar like the Nitto Northroad or Riv's Albatross would be as or more functional and a lot cheaper.

If you are committed to an internal hub then ignore the rest of my post.

I don't think derailleurs are that much trouble. The Front Range climate means more dry weather than wet. I ride for months without even thinking about my RD--and it looks pretty clean. I used to live in Boston and the winter crud was nasty; I just don't get it here in the Springs.

Good luck.

I only mention this because you would open up other options.

Thanks for the info, Emerson. My last riding days were in Portland, OR. The climate and conditions there made keeping a bike clean quite difficult. Good to hear the drier CO weather will keep me running longer without the extra effort.

Thank you. It tickles me when the younger crowd is clueless what awaits them in older age. They
(we did too) think that one can always perform at the same youthful levels......forever. Oh, how I
wish I could.

As to the bike for you........
Your recent post are the reason I recommended a 3 speed bike. However, any hub will work but I
suggest that you visit the Shimano site for a simple graphing of the gearing difference in the 7 & 8
speed hubs. The new 8 speed is spaced just a bit better than the 7 speed is. Please know that it's
unlikely that you will use gears 5 to 7/8 as they are kinda like overdrive which city use seldom
needs. What is important is the spaceing in gears 1 to 5 which is a bit different in the 7/8 speed
hub. If you can try one of each to see what you're most comfortable with. Ideally a 5 speed hub
would be best for city use but they are hard to find in America.

The 3speed is really simple with low,direct,overdrive. The 3 speeds can be moderated by
changing the front chainring or the rear sprocket. Dialing in a 3speed will get you a great bike but
I'm not sure you want to go into that. Most 3 speeds are set up fairly well for city use out of the box
anyway.

One piece of safety gear I will strongly recommend is that you buy AND USE a Lime Green Safety
vest (like the highway workers wear) to give brain dead drivers notice that you're also on the road.