Why so many commuters on MTBs?
12-18-07 | 08:41 PM
#176
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From: Spencer, IN
Bikes: Trek 5200
So much of anyone's answer depends on their personal and riding circumstances. My ten mile commute is on a MUP and over half of those I see while I'm riding are on road bikes, probably closer to 80% today (eight out of ten this moring). When we had warmer weather, I saw a broader mix of bike types. Clearly with the cold, I may be seeing more serious riders. I'm riding what I had, a rigid Raleigh M60, but used a road bike to ride about the same distance on streets in Atlanta 20 years ago. Not many mountain bikes available then and it was what I had. I've only been regularly commuting for three months this time and I don't want to invest in a new bike until I'm sure I will keep at it. Even so, for my commute, I do prefer the more upright position in the MTB. I've ridden the same route on my old road bike and was only one or two minutes faster. This way I keep the bike lights, rack and other weight items on only one bike. However, I've changed my tires to the Kenda Cross Plus with smooth center tread and knobbies on the side. I've just mounted a pair of Schwalbe Marathon Winter studded tires to a spare set of wheels after a couple of days of snow and ice.
Are you riding from Spencer to Bloomington. What's your route and distance?
Are you riding from Spencer to Bloomington. What's your route and distance?
Here is the route I take:
https://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path...ington-Commute
It's usually about 40-miles, round trip. I mentioned this earlier - but my normal commuter is a Surly Long Haul Trucker with full racks. I also commute with a Salsa Casseroll and an 80s Centurion fixed gear on occasion.
Sometimes I take the highway - it shortens the route by about 1.5 miles, and I don't have to deal with as many hills.
Last edited by matthew_deaner; 12-18-07 at 09:16 PM.
12-18-07 | 09:15 PM
#178
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From: Spencer, IN
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12-18-07 | 09:22 PM
#179
Throw in used and the price drops even lower.
12-19-07 | 07:13 AM
#181
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From: Dallas Suburbpopolis
I weigh 150lbs. I am a very "light" rider as far as the abuse suffered by my road bike components. I don't normally just slam into things and stay light in the saddle all the time. I don't put much weight on the saddle, esp on rough surfaces and usually pedal a very tall gear to help keep my arse safe from the hammering saddle.
Vredestein Fortezza Tri-Comp tires. 700x23. No (undeserved) pinch flats. I run between 120 and 130psi on some very old Mavic Reflex 36 spoke conventional wheels. Not all that light, but bombproof - and not total slugs by any means.
The tires are not "Race Day" tires, but one step heavier. The "Tri" stands for Three elements - 1. Hard center strip for speed going straight, 2. Gooey side strips for a-m-a-z-i-n-g cornering even on wet roads. The tires are billed as All-Weather tires. 3. A strip of "kevlar" type flat prevention that works well at holding the tread together even after a nasty gouge.
I have three flats since August, two of them last week. Rare otherwise. The August was a pinch flat on the front tire from hitting the gate track at my old apartment complex waaaaay to fast. I shot a gap in traffic and wacked the sharp edge at 19-20mph. Went flat overnight. The next two flats were glass bits and both on the front tire! (hence, my new sig line). Never had three front flats in a row before. Got the last two flats on wet streets, so probably some broken glass that I continue to not see and run through.
I try to stay in the auto tracks. Too much broken glass and building materials on the road in New Orleans to ride in the "gutter".
I almost never use the lower gears. But when I do, it's nice to have them. There are some sweet short cuts around town that require a bit of off road riding through mostly mowed grass, but it varies. Probably could make due without the 26.
BTW...no snow and ice down here pretty much EVER. If the streets where a mess with frozen precipitation tomorrow morning I would ride my Pugsley to work and ditch the 23s big time.
Vredestein Fortezza Tri-Comp tires. 700x23. No (undeserved) pinch flats. I run between 120 and 130psi on some very old Mavic Reflex 36 spoke conventional wheels. Not all that light, but bombproof - and not total slugs by any means.
The tires are not "Race Day" tires, but one step heavier. The "Tri" stands for Three elements - 1. Hard center strip for speed going straight, 2. Gooey side strips for a-m-a-z-i-n-g cornering even on wet roads. The tires are billed as All-Weather tires. 3. A strip of "kevlar" type flat prevention that works well at holding the tread together even after a nasty gouge.
I have three flats since August, two of them last week. Rare otherwise. The August was a pinch flat on the front tire from hitting the gate track at my old apartment complex waaaaay to fast. I shot a gap in traffic and wacked the sharp edge at 19-20mph. Went flat overnight. The next two flats were glass bits and both on the front tire! (hence, my new sig line). Never had three front flats in a row before. Got the last two flats on wet streets, so probably some broken glass that I continue to not see and run through.
I try to stay in the auto tracks. Too much broken glass and building materials on the road in New Orleans to ride in the "gutter".
I almost never use the lower gears. But when I do, it's nice to have them. There are some sweet short cuts around town that require a bit of off road riding through mostly mowed grass, but it varies. Probably could make due without the 26.
BTW...no snow and ice down here pretty much EVER. If the streets where a mess with frozen precipitation tomorrow morning I would ride my Pugsley to work and ditch the 23s big time.
ah well. I still ride that way offroad, and on road rides, when i'm riding to ride. but riding for commuting & utility, I've been seduced by comfort. the SUV analogy is a good one.I wasn't able to find any info on older Reflex clincher rims, currently Reflex is tubular only. but the setup yeilds a number of around 12 in the "intertia" calculation assuming 450g rims, which i suspect is pretty reasonable.
a trick you might try to avoid small pinch & glass punctures: squirt a little Stan's sealant in your tubes. maybe 1oz or so - not much needed in 23's. You have to finagle with the valve stem a bit, but I find it's worth the hassle. I haven't gone completely flat on the road bike since doing this: might go down to 80psi or so, but retains enough pressure to finish the ride.
Cheers
12-19-07 | 08:37 AM
#182
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Unlike members of this forum, most commuters are not bike enthusiasts. They just want to get to work and lock up their $49 mountain bikes at their usual parking spot.
As a bike enthusiast, I take bike efficiency and practicality into consideration when choosing and setting up my bike as a commuter.......whether it be a mountain bike, road bike, or whatever....
As a bike enthusiast, I take bike efficiency and practicality into consideration when choosing and setting up my bike as a commuter.......whether it be a mountain bike, road bike, or whatever....
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Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
12-19-07 | 08:39 AM
#183
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From: Spencer, IN
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I don't know if that's valid. Considering the low number of bicycle commuters in the US (somewhere around 5 million), I'd suspect that most of them bicycle to work because they want to...not because they have to. In other words, enthusiasts. There are a few people that ride their $49 bikes to work but I see far more expensive bikes then cheap ones.
12-19-07 | 08:40 AM
#184
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I agree with everything but this. Mountain bikes are stolen in far greater number than road bikes. They are probably easier to fence too.
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Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
12-19-07 | 09:05 AM
#185
There are far more of them to steal and more of a market for them.
I'm thinking bents are stolen the least.
I'm thinking bents are stolen the least.
12-19-07 | 09:41 AM
#186
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I don't know if that's valid. Considering the low number of bicycle commuters in the US (somewhere around 5 million), I'd suspect that most of them bicycle to work because they want to...not because they have to. In other words, enthusiasts. There are a few people that ride their $49 bikes to work but I see far more expensive bikes then cheap ones.
12-19-07 | 10:41 AM
#187
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sure, all points are valid, 'cept the "average" mtb commuter hasn't voiced up yet, so i don't know what they use! I took a guess based off what i've used & seen used. personally i've gone all the way down to 195g, 1" tires, and up to 600g 2" tires.
feel free to plug this into your own spreadsheet & play around. it's facinating seeing how much of a difference lowering the rotating mass makes. if you have numbers for your setup I can plug them in.
feel free to plug this into your own spreadsheet & play around. it's facinating seeing how much of a difference lowering the rotating mass makes. if you have numbers for your setup I can plug them in.
We'll see.
12-19-07 | 11:27 AM
#188
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From: Spencer, IN
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I think your right. There is this guy at my job that commutes on a Rans Screamer. He never bothers to lock it - just sits it by the bike rack. He's done this for 2-years, and no one has messed with it.
12-19-07 | 11:29 AM
#189
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I'll let you know when I can track down numbers for rim and tire weights. Comparing my Specialized RockHopper with stock wheels and tires to my Specialized Allez with stock wheels and tires will I'm guessing favor the road bike. The wheel diameter (including tires) of the two bikes is almost the same when I eyeball them and I would guess the substantially heavier MTB tire will tip the balance toward the Allez. It's admittedly skewed though because I doubt many roadies commute with 23's. On the other hand the stock rims on the Allez are on the hefty side for a modern road bike.
We'll see.
We'll see.
12-19-07 | 11:34 AM
#190
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FWIW, on the acceleration/inertia etc. subject here's my admittedly subjective/non-technical experience. 'Roadified' mtb: Mavic 717xc disc on XT hubs, Panaracer Pasela TG folding, 1.5" (about 410 grams), latex tubes; roadie: Mavic Open Pro on 105 hubs, Panaracer Pasela TG folding 25c, latex tubes. All up weight of the mtb is about 22 -23 lbs, using standard mtb front rings w/ Ultegra 9 sp. road cassette; roadie 50/34 compact with usual cassette, all up about 19/20lbs. Ride position on the mtb mimics 'relaxed on the hoods' on the roadie.
1.Acceleration from stop: BluePig(mtb), hands down. Whether intrinsic to the bike differences, or to do with the fact that BluePig just suits my abilities better, for me the difference is pretty startling. This remains the case through low to middling speeds. However,
2. Once moving along well, this changes to favour the roadie, which I guess stands to reason -- roadies are optimized to handle well/accelerate at speed, xc mtb's to do the same at (relatively speaking) slow to moderate speeds.
3. The other major difference I've observed time/time again is that once up to speed, it is easier to maintain consistency on the roadie, i.e. over rolling roads etc. Here I think the same thing that creates effect #1 creates this: the greater inertia of the larger wheel, due not so much to all-up weight as to the distance of that weight (rim/tire/tube) from the rotating centre, and to the fact that a larger diameter wheel does have slightly less rolling resistance to sharpish-edged surface irregularities (the 'angle of attack' effect).
So, for me/my conditions: BluePig in the city/MUP etc., roadie on longer rides out on open road.
1.Acceleration from stop: BluePig(mtb), hands down. Whether intrinsic to the bike differences, or to do with the fact that BluePig just suits my abilities better, for me the difference is pretty startling. This remains the case through low to middling speeds. However,
2. Once moving along well, this changes to favour the roadie, which I guess stands to reason -- roadies are optimized to handle well/accelerate at speed, xc mtb's to do the same at (relatively speaking) slow to moderate speeds.
3. The other major difference I've observed time/time again is that once up to speed, it is easier to maintain consistency on the roadie, i.e. over rolling roads etc. Here I think the same thing that creates effect #1 creates this: the greater inertia of the larger wheel, due not so much to all-up weight as to the distance of that weight (rim/tire/tube) from the rotating centre, and to the fact that a larger diameter wheel does have slightly less rolling resistance to sharpish-edged surface irregularities (the 'angle of attack' effect).
So, for me/my conditions: BluePig in the city/MUP etc., roadie on longer rides out on open road.
12-19-07 | 11:55 AM
#191
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[QUOTE=Sawtooth;5829710]
And if you put him on a road bike and he'd likely drop you. You cannot compare someone else on a different bike and make sweeping generalizations like this. I make statements like "the road bike is soooo much faster" because compared to me riding on my mtb I am faster and more efficient on the roadbike. Hell, I've been dropped by a woman on a road bike, I've been dropped by a guy with one leg on a road bike, I've even been dropped by a guy on a mtb once. Just because someone else can keep up with you or pass you on a heavier mtb doesn't mean everyone else could too and it certainly doesn't mean that you'd be just as fast if you were on the same bike he was when he kept up with you. Seriously, that's just ridiculous.
There is no doubt in my mind that the lower rolling resistance and lighter weight of the road bike make a big difference to the amount of effort I have to put in to ride to/from work quickly and efficiently.
"My roadbike is sooooo much faster than a mtb". Is that so, 'Lance'? Maybe slightly better elapsed time/distance on a long commute over open roads (and/or into a headwind), but otherwise not likely: laws of physics etc. are rather against this one. (We're not talking group rides/paceline here -- those are different conditions). All depends on the rider, and on prevailing conditions on one's commute. I know, beyond doubt, that my blue-pig atb is in fact slightly quicker over my route than my roadie; if my route were different (more 'open'), the converse might well be true -- it all depends. In either case, for MOST OF US, there's not a h_ll of a lot in it.
QUOTE]
Yeah, I am going to have to agree with this one. I am almost solely a road/cross bike commuter. My friend commutes on his mid 1990's raleigh mtb with slicks and fenders. We rode 13 miles home together the other day at 25 mph and he had no problem whatsoever keeping up. I think the key to making an mtb fast is to drop the handlebar relative to the seat and put some good slicks on there. Presta......a fast mtb commuter.
In another instance, we like to consider ourselves some hard core roadies but we rode the last 100 miles of a 200 mile day (Seattle to Portland 2006) at 21-23 mph with a GIRL on a gary fischer MTB with slicks. She did not hang on the front very much but neither did most of the folks in our group. She was incredibly strong, but that gave me a new respect for the versatility of the mtb chasis a foundation for all kinds of possibilities.
For me, I simply prefer the drop bars and I like the bigger wheels. My cross bike can do just about anything as well. Heck, for that matter, my 23 mm road tires actually perform pretty well off road as long as I maintain reasonable expectations about their traction in turns.
QUOTE]
Yeah, I am going to have to agree with this one. I am almost solely a road/cross bike commuter. My friend commutes on his mid 1990's raleigh mtb with slicks and fenders. We rode 13 miles home together the other day at 25 mph and he had no problem whatsoever keeping up. I think the key to making an mtb fast is to drop the handlebar relative to the seat and put some good slicks on there. Presta......a fast mtb commuter.
In another instance, we like to consider ourselves some hard core roadies but we rode the last 100 miles of a 200 mile day (Seattle to Portland 2006) at 21-23 mph with a GIRL on a gary fischer MTB with slicks. She did not hang on the front very much but neither did most of the folks in our group. She was incredibly strong, but that gave me a new respect for the versatility of the mtb chasis a foundation for all kinds of possibilities.
For me, I simply prefer the drop bars and I like the bigger wheels. My cross bike can do just about anything as well. Heck, for that matter, my 23 mm road tires actually perform pretty well off road as long as I maintain reasonable expectations about their traction in turns.
There is no doubt in my mind that the lower rolling resistance and lighter weight of the road bike make a big difference to the amount of effort I have to put in to ride to/from work quickly and efficiently.
12-19-07 | 12:00 PM
#192
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From: New Hampshire
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Yeah, I'll echo SDRider's comments. My observations come from me trying both(well, mtb, cross bike, road bike and hybrid) on my commute. I can almost drop my friend on my cross bike while he rides a Tarmac SL2. Does that mean the $7500 Tarmac is slow? This isn't an apples to apples comparison.
12-19-07 | 12:02 PM
#193
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From: Toronto
So small that I basically just pick a bike at random in the morning (provided they are all actually functional).
Your point about dropping/not dropping people being a meaningless comparison is correct, however.
12-19-07 | 12:49 PM
#194
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From: Dallas Suburbpopolis
I'll let you know when I can track down numbers for rim and tire weights. Comparing my Specialized RockHopper with stock wheels and tires to my Specialized Allez with stock wheels and tires will I'm guessing favor the road bike. The wheel diameter (including tires) of the two bikes is almost the same when I eyeball them and I would guess the substantially heavier MTB tire will tip the balance toward the Allez.
mtb: 22" rims
road: 622mm (24.5") rims
so anyway: say a speed-oriented commuter used 25c tires on his 700c wheels, the diameter of his wheel would be 26.5in. If the same guy used 1" tires on his mtb, the wheel diameter would be 24 inch. using equivalent rims etc, the smaller wheel would have around 20% less inertia. this is just a guesstimate. the road bike not only has the heavy parts of the wheel farther away from the axis, but since the rim & tire are also physically larger, everything else being equal, they weigh more too!
anyway, this is mostly conjecture. road bikes are obviously more fit for the road than any mtb, and if smaller wheels made road bikes faster, they probably would have adopted them. Smaller wheels have higher rolling resistance also, which comes becomes a bigger factor the longer the rides are.
as it is, wth rough roads & a lot of starts & stops, the mtb feels more suited for my situation. if i ever get smoother roads & fewer stops, you can bet I'll be on a road (or cross) bike.
12-19-07 | 01:33 PM
#195
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12-19-07 | 02:57 PM
#196
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From: Minneapolis
<snip>
so anyway: say a speed-oriented commuter used 25c tires on his 700c wheels, the diameter of his wheel would be 26.5in. If the same guy used 1" tires on his mtb, the wheel diameter would be 24 inch. using equivalent rims etc, the smaller wheel would have around 20% less inertia. this is just a guesstimate. the road bike not only has the heavy parts of the wheel farther away from the axis, but since the rim & tire are also physically larger, everything else being equal, they weigh more too!
<snip>
so anyway: say a speed-oriented commuter used 25c tires on his 700c wheels, the diameter of his wheel would be 26.5in. If the same guy used 1" tires on his mtb, the wheel diameter would be 24 inch. using equivalent rims etc, the smaller wheel would have around 20% less inertia. this is just a guesstimate. the road bike not only has the heavy parts of the wheel farther away from the axis, but since the rim & tire are also physically larger, everything else being equal, they weigh more too!
<snip>
The rim on a typical road bike obviously has a larger diameter but they are usually thinner than MTB rims. Typical MTB tires I would guess are MUCH heavier than a typical road bike tire and I might just throw my tubes on a scale because I bet the MTB tubes are heavier too.
I think you can make the argument that you could get an MTB wheel/tire combo that has less inertia than a typical road bike wheel/tire combo but then again you can also get some very light road rims and tires or for that matter there are road bikes that use 650C rims.
In other words by choosing certain tire/rim combos you can stack the deck one way or another. Unless you're using typical sizes I'm not sure what value the argument has.
12-19-07 | 04:05 PM
#197
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From: Dallas Suburbpopolis
The problem I have with the numbers you're using is that while 25c is a common size for a road tire, 1" is NOT a common size for a MTB tire. By choosing a tire that small you're eliminating the softer ride, the go anywhere capability and the flat resistance that many here claim as MTB advantages.
The rim on a typical road bike obviously has a larger diameter but they are usually thinner than MTB rims. Typical MTB tires I would guess are MUCH heavier than a typical road bike tire and I might just throw my tubes on a scale because I bet the MTB tubes are heavier too.
I think you can make the argument that you could get an MTB wheel/tire combo that has less inertia than a typical road bike wheel/tire combo but then again you can also get some very light road rims and tires or for that matter there are road bikes that use 650C rims.
In other words by choosing certain tire/rim combos you can stack the deck one way or another. Unless you're using typical sizes I'm not sure what value the argument has.
The rim on a typical road bike obviously has a larger diameter but they are usually thinner than MTB rims. Typical MTB tires I would guess are MUCH heavier than a typical road bike tire and I might just throw my tubes on a scale because I bet the MTB tubes are heavier too.
I think you can make the argument that you could get an MTB wheel/tire combo that has less inertia than a typical road bike wheel/tire combo but then again you can also get some very light road rims and tires or for that matter there are road bikes that use 650C rims.
In other words by choosing certain tire/rim combos you can stack the deck one way or another. Unless you're using typical sizes I'm not sure what value the argument has.
for rim weights, take a look at Mavic or any other rim co's site. Their CXp rims are 470g+. Open Pro is 435. For mtb, their xc717 disc is 395g. xm 317 is 440. Assuming 26" rims are heavier than 700c rims is not valid - good general-purpose rim weights are pretty close mtb vs. road. And, this is a kicker, the 700c rims is bigger, so more inertia....
Of course, heavy duty mtb rims meant for freeride or whatever are heavy. So are 700c rims meant for touring or whatnot.
standard Performance road tube is 117g. mtb tube is 176g. I'll give ya that - tho I bet a lot of mtb riders on skinnier slicks are using the smaller 26" tube, 129g. I sure was - couldn't stuff that fat tube in a skinny tire. fwiw, i converted my tires to tubeless early this year.
On to tires - the $8 Forte City ST is 455g. The Slick City is 350, Fast City is 400, Michelin TransWorld are 700, my Conti Sport Contact are 370g, and my new Marathon Supremes are 595. so.... kinda hard to say what the "typical" is, as all are popular!
For road bike commuter tires - i doubt many road bike commuters are using 200g uber-tires. I'll bet most are in the 26-32c range - and 300+ grams. The popular Gatorskins are 300g.
so please plug your numbers in there & see what ya get. the math is straightforward & eye-opening. Really makes you want to take weight out of your wheels.
On my personal bikes, the mtb has less inertia, more rolling resistance. On the road bike, I accelerate slower, but to a higher cruising speed. since my commute involves no more than about 1/2 mile of continuous cruising, and many stops/starts, i ride the mtb.... among other reasons.
results may vary, and past performance does not guarantee future results
12-19-07 | 04:36 PM
#198
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All this math is funny, it's like we're trying to numerically prove that one is better than the other. It's what ever you prefer. I think trying to argue the numbers is a waste of time. it's like trying to prove that red is better than blue.
