Flickering Light Modes - Not Necessarily Safe
#26
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I like you're way better. It's more respectful, and it's less obtrusive, and I wish it were practical, but I have to agree with all the pro-blinking comments. Until we can have the same percentage of people on the road as Holland have, motorists will not expect to encounter bikes on the road at night, and we're probably not going to be as safe with a solid tail light. Although I do like the idea of solid/blinking combo.
#27
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Now ... knowing this and having looked at the different opinions I start thinking that everybody should get drivers lessons at an affordable cost, non of the 'L'earners and 'N'ovice bussiness but straight up driving lessons so that proper rules, under which the rights/rules cyclists get, are being thought properly instead of a parent who ... as we as cyclists know ... often don't get it. Or is this another rediculous idea from mister Dutch.
More could be done to educate motorists (and cyclists) about the rules of traffic where bikes are concerned, but as long as there are so many more cars than bikes on the road, it probably won't happen. You have to get the bikes on the road first before anyone is really going to care.
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A blinking light along with a steady one seems best to me. When riding streets with lots of lights and traffic, the brighter light goes on blink. With so many other lights in a motorists view, a bright flash is needed to attract their attention. When on dark roads with little traffic, the brighter light goes on steady. In this case the bright steady / lower power blinking combination is more than enough to attract attention without the blinding effect of a high power flash.
Besides, you should always have more than one light, "just in case".
Besides, you should always have more than one light, "just in case".
Last edited by AlmostTrick; 01-21-08 at 11:05 PM.
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Two things come to mind...1) you saw the blinky! that is better than a lot of drivers...like the one in my area that just recently plowed into a state trooper parked on the side of the road with his ALL of his lights on! 2) a combination of flashers and solid is the best. Flashers only are hard to focus on and determine distance to
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See, the problem is, you need to be noticable to ALL drivers. Including the 17-year-old who's looking over his shoulder to see what kind of cool car that was back there, while talking on his cell phone, and to the 27-year-old soccer mom with 2 fighting kids in the back who's on the phone trying to figure out where they're supposed to be in 5 minutes, and the lightly drunk guy trying to even see the road.
POLICE CARS WITH LIGHTS ON have been run into by people who "didn't see them."
Sorry, you attentive drivers will just have to deal.
FWIW, i run a combo; one steady, one flashing, plus a very bright reflective vest and DOT-rated reflectors on my bike plus the stock reflectors. I agree flashing only is irritating, so I mitigate it by having a steady one too; steady lights are easier to judge distance and speed to, flashing is to attract attention.
POLICE CARS WITH LIGHTS ON have been run into by people who "didn't see them."
Sorry, you attentive drivers will just have to deal.
FWIW, i run a combo; one steady, one flashing, plus a very bright reflective vest and DOT-rated reflectors on my bike plus the stock reflectors. I agree flashing only is irritating, so I mitigate it by having a steady one too; steady lights are easier to judge distance and speed to, flashing is to attract attention.
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Besides making it more difficult to judge distance, I worry that flashing lights might also attract so much attention that drivers (especially those of the intoxicated variety) fixate on you. If fixating on obstacles can cause you to bike into them, does the same phenomenon apply to driving?
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If I had the money I'd run lupine betty 12 lights front and rear (with a red filter). Now that would blind everyone.
https://www.lupine.de/content/main_html.php?lang=uk
https://www.lupine.de/content/main_html.php?lang=uk
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Don't run red lights, wear a helmet, use hand signals, get some cycle lights(front and rear) and, FFS, don't run red lights!
shameless POWERCRANK plug
Recommended reading for all cyclists - Cyclecraft - Effective Cycling
Condor Cycles - quite possibly the best bike shop in London
Don't run red lights, wear a helmet, use hand signals, get some cycle lights(front and rear) and, FFS, don't run red lights!
#33
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#34
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Flickering Light Modes - Not Necessarily Safe
One option no one has mentioned is the third available on a lot of rear lights--the side-to-side movement of the diodes (or up-down, depending on how you mount it). i.e., instead of flashing all on/off together, the diodes flash one at a time in sequence across the unit, then back again.
The Vista light I use has this and it seems way less distracting, while still being attention-getting.
Flashing lights are great for being noticed, but it helps to have a steady one as well (front and back) so people can track your path and judge speed. Has anyone else noticed how hard it can be to do this with a cyclist using only a flashing light?
Allan
Last edited by allan_dunlop; 01-22-08 at 07:41 AM.
#35
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Is the blinking taillight the cycle equivalent of a motorcycles loud pipes? Not at all. We do not use blinkies because we need bigger winkies. Blinkies do not wake neighbors and most blinkies are not bright enough to affect your retinas.
Strobing LED brakelights on the SUV directly in front of me at 6:30 am in the dark are different.
Strobing LED brakelights on the SUV directly in front of me at 6:30 am in the dark are different.
#36
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Here in MA, USA, I believe that we cyclists don't have any right to pass cars on the right hand side unless there's a bike lane [Edit: I was wrong! See below]. Of course, we do it anyway (I'm not going to wait in line for 3 phases of the lights just to carry on), but my attitude, as with any time I break the rules, is that I have to yield to everyone while I do it.
Then, if I'm in a bike lane, I'll still be ready to yield my right of way for simple self-preservation, as you're talking about, because cars will cut across without looking in Boston.
This sort of randomness is a fact of life in Boston driving, which is infuriating. A significant minority take the right of way whether they have it or not, and then half of the rest of people are too timid to take their right of way because they fear that first set are about to cut them up, or they want to be "nice". It means the place is a bizarre mix of ultra-rudeness, and misplaced excessive politeness - both of which make it more dangerous and more unpleasant. Everything runs much more smoothly if everyone follows their responsibilities and rights more rigidly.
Hmmm, this is completely off topic isn't it. Anyway, I run one solid light, and one blinking superflash. I know the flash is kind of annoying, but an elementary skill of driving is learning not to stare fixedly at lights ahead of you, and I don't think people register the solid light unless they're actively looking.
Last edited by sping; 01-22-08 at 02:51 PM.
#37
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Personally, I prefer a mix of the two. I typically run a Cateye TL-LD500 in blinking mode... it has a rather distinctive triple-blink pattern, which seems to be especially good at getting a person's attention. I also use a Cateye TL-LD1100 set in steady mode, to provide something a bit easier to focus on. Finally, I supplement those with a pair of bar-end lights which are also used in steady mode... their purpose is mainly to provide an indication of the bike's width.
I modify this strategy somewhat when visibility is impaired (fog, rain, snow, etc.), by setting the top row of LEDs on the TL-LD1100 to blinking instead of solid. It's considerably brighter than the TL-LD500, which I feel is worth the trade-off in that scenario.
I modify this strategy somewhat when visibility is impaired (fog, rain, snow, etc.), by setting the top row of LEDs on the TL-LD1100 to blinking instead of solid. It's considerably brighter than the TL-LD500, which I feel is worth the trade-off in that scenario.
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Last edited by landstander; 01-22-08 at 11:00 AM.
#38
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I don't have any evidence or studies that having a steady next to a blinkie reduces hypnosis, but that's "folklore" that's often repeated around here, and it seems reasonable; you can more easily identify "bicycle" with the steady light due to the motion, and someone in an alcohol stupor might get it through their skull what that is, instead of staring at it until they hit it.
In any case, can't hoit. Right now I'm running a superflash on blink and an LD1000 on steady. I plan to get another superflash and build a bracket across the back of my rack to hold the LD1000 in the middle and the blinkies on the sides. Or maybe it should be three Superflashes, two on the sides steady and a blinkie in the middle? Or in the daytime I could run all three on blink?
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#39
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I run a rear rack mounted wired tailight (Dynohub powered) PB superflash on my helmet. Blackburn 3.0 on my pannier mounted on the non-drive side and have reflective tape covering my rear mudflap and fender.
As a driver I as well have noticed that a single blinkie is not very effective. I recently came upon a cyclist at night with a seat post mounted blinkie and pedal reflectors. As a driver I saw the pedal reflectors before the blinkie. I think you need both types to caputer people's attention as so many folks drive distracted these days. FWIW I am going to install some rear pedal reflectors as well.
As a driver I as well have noticed that a single blinkie is not very effective. I recently came upon a cyclist at night with a seat post mounted blinkie and pedal reflectors. As a driver I saw the pedal reflectors before the blinkie. I think you need both types to caputer people's attention as so many folks drive distracted these days. FWIW I am going to install some rear pedal reflectors as well.
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All I know and care about is that drivers are giving me a wider birth now that I have upgraded to bright and annoying flashing tail lights. Do I really want them to be able to easily figure out where I am in the road so they can pass me with inches to spare? I really don't think so. YMMV
#41
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Has ANYONE ever heard of this actually happening because of a bicycle light? I know that theoretically it is possible but in real life?
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Besides making it more difficult to judge distance, I worry that flashing lights might also attract so much attention that drivers (especially those of the intoxicated variety) fixate on you. If fixating on obstacles can cause you to bike into them, does the same phenomenon apply to driving?
#43
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See article by Steve Sevaly on Blinking vs steady (solid-lit) lights:
https://www.riversidebicycleclub.org/...Nov2006web.pdf
I don't quite belive his 3rd reason would work in all supported ride cases...
I also read somewhere (roadbikerider newsletter ?) recently that you should use
solid-lit lights in fog and low light (dusky) conditions due to driver depth/distance
perception of cyclist. Other than, that blinking lights should be used in the dark.
https://www.riversidebicycleclub.org/...Nov2006web.pdf
I don't quite belive his 3rd reason would work in all supported ride cases...
I also read somewhere (roadbikerider newsletter ?) recently that you should use
solid-lit lights in fog and low light (dusky) conditions due to driver depth/distance
perception of cyclist. Other than, that blinking lights should be used in the dark.
#44
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AmsterDan: Here's a shocker - you may very well be right that a blinking red light is unsafe at night. I work as an administrative law judge in Oregon and recently finished a five year stint doing DUII license suspension hearings. The National Transportation Safety Admiministration and other regulatory/safety are bodies are rethinking the wisdom of flashing lights at night as a warning device. At one time, it was believed that officers conducting roadside investigations should "obviously" use their flashers. Studies are now questioning that conclusion, and officers have had annecdotal evidence for years that impaired drivers (the most dangerous drives) are attracted to flashing lights. The betters studies seem to indicate that the best margin of safety goes to a steady light. To understand why, you need to understand that primary dangers on the road are related to impaired and/or inattentive drivers. Drivers are conditioned to not rear-end a steady light and to judge distance by a steady light.
Morning rush hour is probably one of the safest times of day to be on a bike. Drivers are alert, freshly rested, pumped with caffeine. Late afternoon through evening is the most dangerous. Drivers are tired, sleepy, inattentive and have stopped ingesting caffeine. Sleepiness is actually more impairing than early alcohol induced impairment (i.e., a sleepy driver is more dangerous than someone at .10 BAC). There's now good research showing that impaired drivers (sleepiness or intoxicants) are attracted to flashing objects. This makes sense, because they're not behaving rationally - THEY'RE IMPAIRED.
Morning rush hour is probably one of the safest times of day to be on a bike. Drivers are alert, freshly rested, pumped with caffeine. Late afternoon through evening is the most dangerous. Drivers are tired, sleepy, inattentive and have stopped ingesting caffeine. Sleepiness is actually more impairing than early alcohol induced impairment (i.e., a sleepy driver is more dangerous than someone at .10 BAC). There's now good research showing that impaired drivers (sleepiness or intoxicants) are attracted to flashing objects. This makes sense, because they're not behaving rationally - THEY'RE IMPAIRED.
#45
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Great. Blinking lights may draw drunk and sleepy drivers like moths to a lightbulb. Maybe we should run a combo of blue, red and white strobes to make drivers think we're cops. That might make them slow down and focus more.
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#46
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Do a Lexis/Nexis search on officers conducting DUII investigations whose cars were rear-ended during their investigation. They're usually running a light show when they're rear-ended.
I was talking to a fellow ALJ/cyclist about this, and they pointed out that when talking to new cyclists you have to point out that if you want to avoid an object, you don't look at the object, you look at the path around the object because humans instinctively steer to our line of sight.
I was talking to a fellow ALJ/cyclist about this, and they pointed out that when talking to new cyclists you have to point out that if you want to avoid an object, you don't look at the object, you look at the path around the object because humans instinctively steer to our line of sight.
#47
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Here in MA, USA, I believe that we cyclists don't have any right to pass cars on the right hand side unless there's a bike lane. Of course, we do it anyway (I'm not going to wait in line for 3 phases of the lights just to carry on), but my attitude, as with any time I break the rules, is that I have to yield to everyone while I do it.
https://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/mass.htm
seems to indicate that passing cars on the right hand side is legal. It doesn't seem to mention the bike lane requirement for passing, but maybe I'm just not reading the legalese right.
For the record, I use two blinkies. One goes on me and one goes on the bike. I don't check the batteries as often as I should and I want the redundancy in case one dies. Also, I figure that if I do end up lying in the street I'd prefer that the next car down the road doesn't run over me or my bike.
#48
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Hey everybody,
Just wanted to bring up a point that I have noticed while driving my car at night. Numorous times I've passed cyclists with their red blinkies on and I actually found the flickering bright red lights fairly distracting. A steady red light would be more than suffecient to get noticed and when driving by it's more a 'I know this cyclist is there'. When it's flickering I find myself being annoyed by it and gives the impression of being blinded and gives a worse sense of where the cyclist is. This is my personal finding ... what do you guys think?
Daniel
Just wanted to bring up a point that I have noticed while driving my car at night. Numorous times I've passed cyclists with their red blinkies on and I actually found the flickering bright red lights fairly distracting. A steady red light would be more than suffecient to get noticed and when driving by it's more a 'I know this cyclist is there'. When it's flickering I find myself being annoyed by it and gives the impression of being blinded and gives a worse sense of where the cyclist is. This is my personal finding ... what do you guys think?
Daniel
I see your point, but I come down on the side of blinkies (meaning actually blinking red lights in the rear) for two reasons.
First, here in the US, a small blinking red light means "bicycle" to most drivers, whereas a steady red light does not immediately signify that the light is on the rear of a bicycle. So the blinkie delivers the necessary information to the driver better than a steady light would.
Second, at least in big cities, where bikes share urban streets with cars, trucks, motorcycles, delivery scooters, and just about anything else you could think of, a steady read light is just one more in a sea of red lights. There's nothing to identify the carrier of the light as a bicycle.
It may also be true that in the US (again, at least in big cities), drivers are so used to bikes having blinkies that they're not as annoying and distracting to drivers as they might be in Holland (or other places in Europe, for all I know).
#49
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Correct me if I'm wrong but
https://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/mass.htm
seems to indicate that passing cars on the right hand side is legal.
https://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/mass.htm
seems to indicate that passing cars on the right hand side is legal.
That's good news! So now the only law I regularly break is failing to observe traffic lights and stop signs. My self-justification is that it's just like jaywalking, which everyone does, and I yield to everyone then doing it.
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I think you've answered your own question, the blinking lights work's and did what it was meant to do, you were attracted to it enough to not like it.
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