My starting point:
* Drivers waiting at red lights sometimes beep cyclists who ride through the red light.
* Drivers waiting at red lights would never beep other drivers drive through the red light.

Why?

What is it about the driver-cyclist relationship that is different from driver-driver? Why do drivers feel they can/should "discipline" cyclists, whereas they would never "discipline" each other?

Discuss.

Steve

Probably because when said cyclist gets killed running red light, other cyclists get up in arms about how drivers are evil and never pay attention to those of us on bikes. As for driver/driver communication, I can`t speak to the situation in Australia but it`s certainly not rare here in San Diego for horns to be honked or the occasional `Learn to drive you ****ing *******` to be uttered when a driver does something stupid.

What? I would most CERTAINLY beep at car drivers who drove through the red light, and I have certainly witnessed a whole intersection full of cars honking like crazy at red-light-running drivers.

Are red light runners so common there that they don't even merit a horn?

well, typically the driver's are temporarily stunned when they see a red light runner.
Since the red light running bike is going.. oh.. let's say 25~30km/h while a red light running car would be anywhere from 5km/h~15km/h over the speed limit there's not enough time to react and honk...

at least that's my best guess.

If I'm in my car and I see a car run a red light I blast the horn.

I've witnessed motorists honk (i've done it myself) at other motorists blatantly running red lights or stop signs. I assume most motorists "discipline" cyclists because

1) Most motorists whom chastise cyclists probably don't believe you have a right to be on the road in the first place. I've been yelled at/aggressively honked at probably 50 times(?) since I started road biking in 10/07. In every instance I was simply there. Just me riding down the road as close as "practicable" to the edge of the roadway.
2) Cyclists are completely exposed. There is no bubble so cyclists are verbally approachable
3) Motorists get to yell at cyclists and drive away without any recourse

Locally, I think drivers are far more abusive with each other.

the thing that irk's me with drivers at intersections is for example:
When approaching a 4 way stop, a car in a perpendicular lane, starts to inch forward like they are going to go, then stop and try and waive me through. By this point i already would have either fallen from not being able to hold the track stand which i could of rode out of if he just took his right of way, dismount, waive him through and have him not concede, OR decided to go through with him waving me through but with him still acting like a child that is unsure if he should run out into the street to get the ball in front of your car "wait ..waiiittttt, OK RUN NOW INFRONT OF THAT CAR!!!!!"

Not to be a buzz kill, but I can't begin to think discussing it here will effect a change. Really, who cares? 'Just sayin.'

1) Most motorists are probably a bit upset that cyclists demand to be treated with respect as fellow road users, while at the same time not obeying those same traffic laws that all road users are expected to obey.

2) Try obeying simple laws and the only driver interaction you`re likely to have is going to be positive.

3) See above.

And no, I`m not living in fantasy land. I`ve been racing and riding my bike for the last 25 years here in Southern California and I`ve never been hit, harrassed, or threatened by a driver. You bring it on yourselves.

Yeah but this applies to almost everything discussed on these boards. If we apply this logic we might as well close the forum and *shudder* get a real life.

pretty sure if i saw some car run a red light i would blast my horn.
but im car free.. so who knows?

in Perth there seems to be a good car/bike relationship.
haven't really noticed many problems with cars.

Most of the aggression you see from cars is in situations where there is possible danger, or at least possible damage to cars - like bad lane changes, cutting off, pulling out at the wrong time etc etc. But I'm talking about situations that are pretty ideological: "You should not have crept through that red light, no matter how safe it is."

> Are red light runners so common there that they don't even merit a horn?

No, they're so rare that there's no code of practice, and the most likely explanation is a mistake. Maybe that's it?

Steve

Sure it will... when the OP realizes that honks are usually harmless. Just ride properly and watch out for the real problems.

To answer the OP's title, no, drivers do not think cyclists are children. Unless maybe the cyclist is on the sidewalk or wobbling in the gutter. If you're riding a straight line and assertively taking your place in the main traffic lanes, they most certainly know you are not a child.

Pretty much, but then, most of the time when cyclists get buzzed they aren't running a red light either. That said, red light runners are more common up here than in Melbourne, so it may be different.

I've seen a lot of the "bikes are toys"/"Cyclists are children" attitude over the years, and I'm sorry to say that as much of it comes from cycling "advocates" as from drivers.

This may not answer everything Stevage was asking in the two questions he asked in his post. However, it does offer an opinion on the question in the title of the thread.

People driving motor vehicles may not consider that people who ride bicycles are adults as well as teenagers and children. A great many of them may not be aware that traffic laws state that bicycles are vehicles that are to be operated on the road. They may not be aware that bicyclists have the same rights on the roads as motor vehicle drivers do. But even if they do know these things, many motor vehicle drivers just refuse to accept them. To some motor vehicle drivers, it is their belief that once they received their lisence to operate a motor vehicle, the bicycle is abandoned, inferior to the bulk, weight, and power of an automobile, and/or classified as "just a children's toy."

Drivers of motor vehicles tend not to discipline each other as much as they do to bicyclists. After all, it often appears that people on 30 LB bicycles are just "in the way" of motorists driving their 2000 LB motor vehicles. In a driver-to-driver situation, there is no problem between each other until people's lives are in danger. That, and there are fewer people riding bicycles in America's streets than there are people operating motor vehicles.

While it is true that people begin riding bicycles when they are children and continue into their teenage years, It isn't often thought that adults might use them, too. So comes the thought that adult and younger bicyclists alike are treated like children, even if they don't display the behavior of children.
However, it is important that motorists and bicyclists need to recognize one another as responsible people when using the road. After all, I am a 39-year old adult cyclist with decades of riding experience (i.e. I know and abide by the same rules as motorists do, such as not blowing through red lights and stop signs). Yet I recognize that many fellow cyclists also own and operate motor vehicles and know better. Hopefully, this issue will improve in the near future.


WHEREVER YOU GO, THERE YOU ARE.

I can't even remember the last time I saw a car make a full stop at a sign. I ride trails almost exclusively, so I can't say anything about bikes.

I see cars, and include myself, stop at lights completely, but then, I live in GA. and getting tickets out here is easier than back home. The police out here are arrogant asses. Mainly, I stop because it's the law and my tax dollars help pay for all the traffic regulation devices, so I see it as a waste of my money not to observe and obey.

Honks are harmless as mentioned, but out here in the south, you're liable to turn around and see a .44 in your face or end up being chased by the car that ran the light for a few miles. There are a lot of "mentals" driving around out here. It's best to just deal with it from my POV. 'Wasn't like this back in Seattle.

Incidentally...why? Why beep? Are you "disciplining" them? Venting? What is it? Do you think you can change them? Do you think society benefits from your beep?

I just don't understand. When I'm driving, I never beep other then "omg don't hit me".

Steve

This thread amazes me. It starts off `why do driver honk at cyclists who run red lights?` and turns into `Drivers suck. They hate bike riders. Most of them think we`re children...` Well, no ****. You`re demanding that you be treated with respect, like any other road user, and then you ride through stop lights? And give me a break with the `I`ve never seen a driver come to a complete stop at a stop sign` argument. That was not the original post. It had to do with riding through RED LIGHTS. Has anyone EVER seen a car driver pull up to a red light, look around, wait until there was a break in cross traffic and then race across********** At 2:15am in the middle of Mayberry, perhaps. In the middle of the day as is most often the case with cyclists? Not a chance. You know what`s funny? The guy who blows red lights/scurries through cross traffic BUT happens to wear a helmet is considered `safe and responsible` while a helmetless rider who waits at lights, comes to a STOP (not a wobbly trackstand) at stop signs is considered a `Euro wannabe` and an accident waiting to happen. Unbelievable.

Since you quoted me, I guess your response was directed at me. You're making a lot of assumptions about my riding. You'll have to take my word for it, but I don't ride with a chip on my shoulder. I am Mr. Bicycle Safety Nanny. I think our difference in location and/or commuting times may explain our different experiences. I commute on shoulder-less suburban roads with 45 mph speed limits during typical rush hour times. My most aggressive encounters are during these high traffic times. When I ride the same roads at 10 pm, I experience no harassment. (except for Friday and Saturday nights from teenagers/drunks).

I just happen to be a cyclist that demands to be treated with respect while at the same time obeying the same traffic laws all road users are expected to obey...except I obey more of them.

Per your motorists don't explicitly run red lights comment. I just happened to see a motorists do it this morning around 8:30. He was waiting in the left hand turn lane on a red arrow and after 10 seconds, decided to make a U-turn on it. This isn't an isolated case...this is Larghetto, Fl. Perhaps you've heard of this crap hole?

Who is "you" ?

I often beep at other motorists while driving, if I feel they are doing something dangerous. This includes speeders or tailgaters. (Yes, you can honk someone behind you) I'll also sometimes honk at cell phone yackers, (especially if they're smoking at the same time) or people reading / putting on make up while driving. I do it for all the reasons you mentioned. Basically it just makes me feel better, because at least I had my say about their unsafe behavior. I'm very calm about it and never allow it to get me worked up. I'd feel a lot worse if I held it in. Is that bad?

I`m amazed at the red light running incident. You just saw that this morning? Wow. Points to So Cal driver for being so law abading. 33 or 38 years living in San Diego, California, 25 of which have been as a racer/rider and I`ve never seen that. Florida does sound like a real **** hole of a place for cyclists. I`ll give you that.


I guess we just have very different experiences as cyclists. I can appreciate that you are a cyclist `that demands to be treated with respect...` That said, I myselft have never been put into a position where I need to `demand respect` from other motorists. I`ve had a peaceful 25 years on the bike. Cheers.

Grrrr...hate spelling mistakes in my posts. I`m so weird about that.

That's why I keep something stinky in my second water bottle. I squirt it at people. I flew by a bus load of little kids that were literally throwing stuff at me on the road. The bus stopped a few blocks up, I buzzed by real close, held my water bottle over my head and squirted it into most of the windows and then tucked into a side street