View Poll Results: Lights & Reflectors: How much is enough?
Reflectors only (yikes!)



1
0.40%
Rear light only



2
0.80%
Front & rear blinking lights



26
10.36%
Front headlamps and rear blinker



85
33.86%
Multiple headlamps and taillights



56
22.31%
All of the above



25
9.96%
All of the above and more



56
22.31%
Voters: 251. You may not vote on this poll
Lights & Reflectors: How much is enough?
#26
24-Speed Machine

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,056
Likes: 2
From: Wash. Grove, MD
Bikes: 2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
Reflectors only
Rear light only
Front & rear blinking lights
Front headlamps and rear blinker
Multiple headlamps or taillights
All of the above
All of the above and more

Rear light only

Front & rear blinking lights

Front headlamps and rear blinker

Multiple headlamps or taillights
All of the above
All of the above and more
#27
Been Around Awhile

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 30,657
Likes: 1,975
From: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
#28
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,863
Likes: 6
From: Washington, DC
Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?
1) Will lights help better than reflectors here? What I mean is, as traffic is merging (can't quite picture what you're describing) or going in and out of parking lots, their light isn't shining on you until you're in front of them; but lights will make you visible when you're to their side, where they would see you by looking out a side window or in mirrors for other traffic.
2) and 3) What's the benefit of being seen from the side at an intersection or in a median? The traffic that might hit you from the side shouldn't be pointed towards you, so you wouldn't be a hazard anyway. When you cross, too, the cross traffic should be stopped or has enough of a gap where you can get through safely and not surprise them.
4) If you have decent lighting, drivers will see you before you swoop across their field of view. By the time you get into their headlights, they'll already know you're there.
I think my point is that reflectors are only good where headlights are pointed, and that's really pretty limited. Plenty of accidents happen where at least one party is nowhere near being lit up by headlights, and reflectors won't help there -- but lights do.
Good point about the legal requirements for reflectors, too. Also, some places require lights -- DC requires a headlight and at least a rear reflector (a red light may be used in lieu of a rear reflector, though).
(quoted for reference)
1) I head west down 2nd Ave. on my way home. It takes some jogs to go around a supermarket while simultaneously morphing from a WOL to a NOL. Overtaking traffic and traffic coming in from my right at the first jog both get a partial side view. Given that the road narrows, they need to merge left instead of staying in my lane.
2) when I'm stopped in an intersection waiting for an opportunity to turn left, it's good to be visible from the side. With reflective sidewalls, I can also prop my front wheel sideways so oncoming traffic can see it. My reflective vest and jacket also contribute. In this situation, my eGear Guardians on my fork blades also provide a little active side visibility.
3) when I turn onto Highway 195, a 4-lane divided highway, side visibility helps me show up to oncoming traffic from both sides. Since I often have to stop in the median before crossing the second half of the highway, I'm a sitting duck when people coming down the second half of the highway dive into the turn lane to turn across the median. Side reflectivity and active lighting are both possible defenses (turn bars and helmet light towards the traffic).
4) when I turn off of Highway 195 onto Hatch Road, side visibility helps me show to the oncoming traffic coming down 195, some of which will also turn onto Hatch Road. Given that the first 1/2 mile of Hatch has bottlenecks, it's helpful for them to know in advance that there's a cyclist just ahead of them somewhere. Those reflective sidewalls, rim tape and fenders that went swooping across their path are hard to mistake for anything else. Also, the people trying to turn left from Hatch onto 195 are about 70 feet to my left when they launch, far enough for side reflectivity to help them see me before they broadside me.
As a side note, a red rear reflector visible for 600 feet in low-beam headlights is a legal requirement in my state. My taillights might be far superior in many situations to my reflectors, but if someone hits me, I want to have everything I was legally required to have, in case it ends in court. I don't want to be paying hospital bills AND repairs to the front end of someone's BMW.
Anyway, my commuting bikes fit the "all of the above, and more" category. I could get by with less, but hey
2) when I'm stopped in an intersection waiting for an opportunity to turn left, it's good to be visible from the side. With reflective sidewalls, I can also prop my front wheel sideways so oncoming traffic can see it. My reflective vest and jacket also contribute. In this situation, my eGear Guardians on my fork blades also provide a little active side visibility.
3) when I turn onto Highway 195, a 4-lane divided highway, side visibility helps me show up to oncoming traffic from both sides. Since I often have to stop in the median before crossing the second half of the highway, I'm a sitting duck when people coming down the second half of the highway dive into the turn lane to turn across the median. Side reflectivity and active lighting are both possible defenses (turn bars and helmet light towards the traffic).
4) when I turn off of Highway 195 onto Hatch Road, side visibility helps me show to the oncoming traffic coming down 195, some of which will also turn onto Hatch Road. Given that the first 1/2 mile of Hatch has bottlenecks, it's helpful for them to know in advance that there's a cyclist just ahead of them somewhere. Those reflective sidewalls, rim tape and fenders that went swooping across their path are hard to mistake for anything else. Also, the people trying to turn left from Hatch onto 195 are about 70 feet to my left when they launch, far enough for side reflectivity to help them see me before they broadside me.
As a side note, a red rear reflector visible for 600 feet in low-beam headlights is a legal requirement in my state. My taillights might be far superior in many situations to my reflectors, but if someone hits me, I want to have everything I was legally required to have, in case it ends in court. I don't want to be paying hospital bills AND repairs to the front end of someone's BMW.
Anyway, my commuting bikes fit the "all of the above, and more" category. I could get by with less, but hey
#29
Not saying that they don't work for you, and I figure you have lights anyway, but I'm just thinking about these...
1) Will lights help better than reflectors here? What I mean is, as traffic is merging (can't quite picture what you're describing) or going in and out of parking lots, their light isn't shining on you until you're in front of them; but lights will make you visible when you're to their side, where they would see you by looking out a side window or in mirrors for other traffic.
1) Will lights help better than reflectors here? What I mean is, as traffic is merging (can't quite picture what you're describing) or going in and out of parking lots, their light isn't shining on you until you're in front of them; but lights will make you visible when you're to their side, where they would see you by looking out a side window or in mirrors for other traffic.

2) and 3) What's the benefit of being seen from the side at an intersection or in a median? The traffic that might hit you from the side shouldn't be pointed towards you, so you wouldn't be a hazard anyway. When you cross, too, the cross traffic should be stopped or has enough of a gap where you can get through safely and not surprise them.
In the case of turning off the highway, the people trying to enter the highway have to sweep a 180° field of view to monitor four lanes of 60mph traffic for a gap. If I don't already have all my lights on, they're definitely turned on for this, but I am sometimes backlit by traffic and might blend in. If I do make it to my turning position, now I'm directly in front of people getting ready to tromp on it and get through the median and into their gap.
4) If you have decent lighting, drivers will see you before you swoop across their field of view. By the time you get into their headlights, they'll already know you're there.
might get recognition.
I think my point is that reflectors are only good where headlights are pointed, and that's really pretty limited. Plenty of accidents happen where at least one party is nowhere near being lit up by headlights, and reflectors won't help there -- but lights do.
Still, in the situations where reflective stuff works, I think it can help motorists "connect the dots." Not everyone will want to go as overboard as I do, but some of the best options don't cost much to implement, like reflective legbands and maybe $10 worth of DOT Class II reflective tape.
Last edited by mechBgon; 11-17-08 at 12:55 AM.
#31
L T X B O M P F A N S R
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,334
Likes: 5
From: Malden, MA
Bikes: Bianchi Volpe, Bianchi San Jose, Redline 925
I removed the front and rear reflectors to make room for a saddle bag, computer, and front and rear lights. I find that this is enough for my needs. The places I ride tend to be very well lit by street lights, so my front light is more for people to see me coming, rather than for me to illuminate things in my path. It's actually pretty useless for that purpose.
#32
Been Around Awhile

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 30,657
Likes: 1,975
From: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
#33
What is this demonry?!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,097
Likes: 0
From: Central IL
Bikes: KHS Aero Comp.
I removed the front and rear reflectors to make room for a saddle bag, computer, and front and rear lights. I find that this is enough for my needs. The places I ride tend to be very well lit by street lights, so my front light is more for people to see me coming, rather than for me to illuminate things in my path. It's actually pretty useless for that purpose.
#34
beatz down lo|seatz up hi
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
From: Missouri, USA
Bikes: A 2007 Trek 4300. 22.5", 1981 Trek 610 24" (61cm)
I have a Fenix L2D-CE in the front, with a PB Superflash in the rear. My backpack has reflective stripes on it (Banjo Brothers) and my clipless shoes have reflective stuff on them too.
And I'm getting a Nova Bull.
And I'm getting a Nova Bull.
#35
Soggy PNW Winter Rider
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Mountlake Terrace, WA
Bikes: Trek 930 Singletrack Solid Fork
I run a 2"x4" red light on the back of my rack, with a little red flasher attached to my seatpost. My front light is Planet Bike 5 LED Beamer. Now that I am commuting more, I am thinking about getting something brighter than the Beamer I have.
My big beef is with people who only run flashing lights. I find them difficult to track in the dark. Consequently, my headlight and taillight are steady, with the only flasher on my seatpost.
My big beef is with people who only run flashing lights. I find them difficult to track in the dark. Consequently, my headlight and taillight are steady, with the only flasher on my seatpost.
#37
totally louche
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 18,023
Likes: 12
From: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
reflectors aren't all about 'imminent collision avoidance' but there's lots of ambiguous traffic conditions during which I'm glad to have an extra measure of nighttime visibility.
I keep a seat reflector on all my bikes to meet my state's laws about required bicycle equipment.
#38
Three stories to make the point of you can't possibly have enough:
I ride with a L&M HID front, Dinotte rear, SuperFlash on helmet, and about a square yard of reflective bits with a hi-viz yellow top. I still hear "sorry I didn't see you" once in a while.
LBS owner was telling me of a similarly equipped rider with the addition of Christmas lights on the helmet and torso. He was in the bike lane on a parkway. Driver stated she never saw him despite clear lines of sight and weather.
I pass a fire station on the way home. It's on a busy two-way street. The new fire engine, red with hi-viz yellow striping and all--every single one-- lights going full tilt boogie tried to turn out into the road. They had no success until laying on the sirens and horn.
Whatever you're packin' it ain't enough.
I ride with a L&M HID front, Dinotte rear, SuperFlash on helmet, and about a square yard of reflective bits with a hi-viz yellow top. I still hear "sorry I didn't see you" once in a while.
LBS owner was telling me of a similarly equipped rider with the addition of Christmas lights on the helmet and torso. He was in the bike lane on a parkway. Driver stated she never saw him despite clear lines of sight and weather.
I pass a fire station on the way home. It's on a busy two-way street. The new fire engine, red with hi-viz yellow striping and all--every single one-- lights going full tilt boogie tried to turn out into the road. They had no success until laying on the sirens and horn.
Whatever you're packin' it ain't enough.
#39
L T X B O M P F A N S R
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,334
Likes: 5
From: Malden, MA
Bikes: Bianchi Volpe, Bianchi San Jose, Redline 925
Or maybe not. I don't know.
#40
Señior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
Sometimes it doesn't matter what you have. If people are not paying attention, you might not be able to make any difference in whether they see you.
Case in point: My brother is a paramedic/fireman, and last year they had some serious damage done to a large fire truck. It was parked on the road, brakes locked, all lights running, surrounded by other fire vehicles with lights running, police cars with lights running, barricades and a couple dozen guys walking around in full turnout gear. Some guy came in and hit the back of the truck with his pickup full speed (on the expressway). No skid marks whatsoever. Pushed the truck forward about 10 feet, which is quite impressive given the weight of the truck. The only good thing was that they had all the equipment right there to peel the bent steel out from around the puddle of jello and gristle that used to be the pickup driver.
Clearly, this guy managed to "not see" 4 fire trucks and 3 police cars with full EMT light packs, a dozen guys with tons of reflective stuff on them, AND a burning vehicle on the side of the road. The accident took place on the expressway in a section with no turns for over a mile. Even texting or using the phone is hard to believe as an excuse; that mess should have been visible for a minute before he got there.
For people like that, the only hope would be to have enough kilowatts of light that their hair catches fire from the beam. They might notice that.
Case in point: My brother is a paramedic/fireman, and last year they had some serious damage done to a large fire truck. It was parked on the road, brakes locked, all lights running, surrounded by other fire vehicles with lights running, police cars with lights running, barricades and a couple dozen guys walking around in full turnout gear. Some guy came in and hit the back of the truck with his pickup full speed (on the expressway). No skid marks whatsoever. Pushed the truck forward about 10 feet, which is quite impressive given the weight of the truck. The only good thing was that they had all the equipment right there to peel the bent steel out from around the puddle of jello and gristle that used to be the pickup driver.
Clearly, this guy managed to "not see" 4 fire trucks and 3 police cars with full EMT light packs, a dozen guys with tons of reflective stuff on them, AND a burning vehicle on the side of the road. The accident took place on the expressway in a section with no turns for over a mile. Even texting or using the phone is hard to believe as an excuse; that mess should have been visible for a minute before he got there.
For people like that, the only hope would be to have enough kilowatts of light that their hair catches fire from the beam. They might notice that.
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Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
#41
Senior Member

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,888
Likes: 0
From: portland or
Sometimes it doesn't matter what you have. If people are not paying attention, you might not be able to make any difference in whether they see you.
Case in point: My brother is a paramedic/fireman, and last year they had some serious damage done to a large fire truck. It was parked on the road, brakes locked, all lights running, surrounded by other fire vehicles with lights running, police cars with lights running, barricades and a couple dozen guys walking around in full turnout gear. Some guy came in and hit the back of the truck with his pickup full speed (on the expressway). No skid marks whatsoever. Pushed the truck forward about 10 feet, which is quite impressive given the weight of the truck. The only good thing was that they had all the equipment right there to peel the bent steel out from around the puddle of jello and gristle that used to be the pickup driver.
Clearly, this guy managed to "not see" 4 fire trucks and 3 police cars with full EMT light packs, a dozen guys with tons of reflective stuff on them, AND a burning vehicle on the side of the road. The accident took place on the expressway in a section with no turns for over a mile. Even texting or using the phone is hard to believe as an excuse; that mess should have been visible for a minute before he got there.
For people like that, the only hope would be to have enough kilowatts of light that their hair catches fire from the beam. They might notice that.
Case in point: My brother is a paramedic/fireman, and last year they had some serious damage done to a large fire truck. It was parked on the road, brakes locked, all lights running, surrounded by other fire vehicles with lights running, police cars with lights running, barricades and a couple dozen guys walking around in full turnout gear. Some guy came in and hit the back of the truck with his pickup full speed (on the expressway). No skid marks whatsoever. Pushed the truck forward about 10 feet, which is quite impressive given the weight of the truck. The only good thing was that they had all the equipment right there to peel the bent steel out from around the puddle of jello and gristle that used to be the pickup driver.
Clearly, this guy managed to "not see" 4 fire trucks and 3 police cars with full EMT light packs, a dozen guys with tons of reflective stuff on them, AND a burning vehicle on the side of the road. The accident took place on the expressway in a section with no turns for over a mile. Even texting or using the phone is hard to believe as an excuse; that mess should have been visible for a minute before he got there.
For people like that, the only hope would be to have enough kilowatts of light that their hair catches fire from the beam. They might notice that.
it's not a matter of not seeing it is a case of rubber necking. it happens a lot when police pull motorists over. someone runs into them.
#42
Regular bikes: front/rear lights. Usually leave the reflectors on the back,will leave the front on if I don't need the bar space. Spoke reflectors I'll leave on,but won't replce them if they fall off. Reflective sidewall tires if I can.
Bad weather bike: front headlight and blinky,2 rear lights,reflective tape on headtube/seatstays/left chainstay,reflective sidewall tires.
I always try to get my tires with reflective sidewalls. Two big reflective hoops that can be seen from a very wide angle.
Bad weather bike: front headlight and blinky,2 rear lights,reflective tape on headtube/seatstays/left chainstay,reflective sidewall tires.
I always try to get my tires with reflective sidewalls. Two big reflective hoops that can be seen from a very wide angle.
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C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport,Brompton S6L/S2E-X/M6L-X/S12 T Line


C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport,Brompton S6L/S2E-X/M6L-X/S12 T Line

#43
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
From: NorCal
Bikes: Public D8, Marin Hamilton 29er, (stolen: Trek 7.3, Electra Amsterdam)
All of the above here.
Reflector/tape is like Judo, use the lumens from the car for your advantage, reflect it back at them. Reflecting half the outputof a the typical car is going to throw more light than just about any setup i can run alone.
Reflector/tape is like Judo, use the lumens from the car for your advantage, reflect it back at them. Reflecting half the outputof a the typical car is going to throw more light than just about any setup i can run alone.
#44
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,863
Likes: 6
From: Washington, DC
Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?
About the fire truck that had to turn on its lights before anyone would let it out of the station -- well, of course. If it's not blaring its sirens, it must not be an emergency, so maybe it's just moving out into the driveway for some maintenance or something (not many people know what really happens inside the station). People might think, "Maybe they're just testing the lights..."
I'm not saying that they don't work, I'm saying that a lot of the time they don't matter. Riding past cross traffic -- they're not looking straight ahead, they're looking to the side for traffic crossing their intended path, and their lights don't point to the side. Making turns as vehicles approach -- if you're turning close enough in front of them that they need to hit their brakes, you can cause problems behind them (whether people rear-end each other or change lanes to get around whoever suddenly stopped... and come around to hit you instead); wait some more and turn when it's safer for everybody. Passing lines of motorists at stoplights -- they're sitting at a stoplight and won't be coming towards you.
I don't think anyone here is dumb enough to rely on reflectors alone, though, so this probably isn't much of a problem anyway.
I would definetly take issue with that statement. riding past cross traffic waiting to enter the road you're riding on, making turns as vehicles approach, passing lines of motorists at stoplights turning onto the road you're travelling, are all instances where wheel reflectors and frame flecco tape heighten visibility and awareness of bicycling.
reflectors aren't all about 'imminent collision avoidance' but there's lots of ambiguous traffic conditions during which I'm glad to have an extra measure of nighttime visibility.
I keep a seat reflector on all my bikes to meet my state's laws about required bicycle equipment.
reflectors aren't all about 'imminent collision avoidance' but there's lots of ambiguous traffic conditions during which I'm glad to have an extra measure of nighttime visibility.
I keep a seat reflector on all my bikes to meet my state's laws about required bicycle equipment.
I don't think anyone here is dumb enough to rely on reflectors alone, though, so this probably isn't much of a problem anyway.
#45
Rides again
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,282
Likes: 1
From: SW. Sacramento Region, aka, down river
Bikes: Giant OCR T, Trek SC
Bad bad poll. No multiple choice, no other. I couldn't select any of the answers.
Headlight-- only need one, but make it a good one. You can carry a small flashlight for emergency if you like.
Taillight-- again only need one, if it's a good one.
Headlight blinkie, totally unnecessary.
Front fork clearnance blinking lights- essential for the driveway pull outs and idiots who just start turning and only think whoops, when see a light blinking right in their eyes.
Sadly the situation is likely to get worst. The new bright car/truck bluish tint lights are bad because 1. they hurt night vision, so other lights be will less noticable, and 2. they tend to be more floodlights than focused spotlights.
Headlight-- only need one, but make it a good one. You can carry a small flashlight for emergency if you like.
Taillight-- again only need one, if it's a good one.
Headlight blinkie, totally unnecessary.
Front fork clearnance blinking lights- essential for the driveway pull outs and idiots who just start turning and only think whoops, when see a light blinking right in their eyes.
Sadly the situation is likely to get worst. The new bright car/truck bluish tint lights are bad because 1. they hurt night vision, so other lights be will less noticable, and 2. they tend to be more floodlights than focused spotlights.
#46
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 633
Likes: 1
From: Pittsfield, MA
Bikes: Motobecane Fantom Cross 2008 Schwinn Super Sport 1972 SS. Surly Pacer Rando bike
My current setup is as follows:
2 headlights. Cheap things, to be replaced when I have the money
1 tail light on my trunkbag
1 Blue Flashflight Spokelit in each wheel.
When I'm towing my trailer, which is the first 2 miles out and last 2 back, I have an additional 2 blinkies on the trailer, set up nice and high, very visible and two red FlashFlight Spokelits, one on either side.
I also have a pretty good light mounted to my helmet. I'm pretty sure I look like a UFO coming down the street. And that is the intent.
2 headlights. Cheap things, to be replaced when I have the money
1 tail light on my trunkbag
1 Blue Flashflight Spokelit in each wheel.
When I'm towing my trailer, which is the first 2 miles out and last 2 back, I have an additional 2 blinkies on the trailer, set up nice and high, very visible and two red FlashFlight Spokelits, one on either side.
I also have a pretty good light mounted to my helmet. I'm pretty sure I look like a UFO coming down the street. And that is the intent.
#47
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,863
Likes: 6
From: Washington, DC
Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?
My Dinotte lights up signs better than the headlights of the cars near me, but that's not because it's brighter (it isn't) -- it's because it just sprays light everywhere in a big circle.
#48
Mad bike riding scientist




Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,141
Likes: 6,202
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

As for lights, 3 front and at least 5 rear, one of which is on steady. No reflective tape or reflectors outside of what Colorado law requires.
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Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#49
Mad bike riding scientist




Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,141
Likes: 6,202
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#50
Last edited by uke; 11-17-08 at 04:32 PM.



