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Lights & Reflectors: How much is enough?

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View Poll Results: Lights & Reflectors: How much is enough?
Reflectors only (yikes!)
1
0.40%
Rear light only
2
0.80%
Front & rear blinking lights
26
10.36%
Front headlamps and rear blinker
85
33.86%
Multiple headlamps and taillights
56
22.31%
All of the above
25
9.96%
All of the above and more
56
22.31%
Voters: 251. You may not vote on this poll

Lights & Reflectors: How much is enough?

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Old 11-16-08 | 07:55 PM
  #26  
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Reflectors only

Rear light only

Front & rear blinking lights

Front headlamps and rear blinker

Multiple headlamps or taillights

All of the above

All of the above and more
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Old 11-16-08 | 08:34 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Roody
Some folks get a little overexcited by lights, IMO. I have one LED headlight in front and 2 PBSFs on the rear. I have a little reflective tape on my bacpack. Enough already!
Depends on where and when you ride and the speed of the cars you ride amongst if that is enough.
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Old 11-16-08 | 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mechBgon
I can think of some instances where side reflectivity is beneficial. Here are a few, just thinking of my daily commute here:
Not saying that they don't work for you, and I figure you have lights anyway, but I'm just thinking about these...

1) Will lights help better than reflectors here? What I mean is, as traffic is merging (can't quite picture what you're describing) or going in and out of parking lots, their light isn't shining on you until you're in front of them; but lights will make you visible when you're to their side, where they would see you by looking out a side window or in mirrors for other traffic.

2) and 3) What's the benefit of being seen from the side at an intersection or in a median? The traffic that might hit you from the side shouldn't be pointed towards you, so you wouldn't be a hazard anyway. When you cross, too, the cross traffic should be stopped or has enough of a gap where you can get through safely and not surprise them.

4) If you have decent lighting, drivers will see you before you swoop across their field of view. By the time you get into their headlights, they'll already know you're there.

I think my point is that reflectors are only good where headlights are pointed, and that's really pretty limited. Plenty of accidents happen where at least one party is nowhere near being lit up by headlights, and reflectors won't help there -- but lights do.

Good point about the legal requirements for reflectors, too. Also, some places require lights -- DC requires a headlight and at least a rear reflector (a red light may be used in lieu of a rear reflector, though).

(quoted for reference)
1) I head west down 2nd Ave. on my way home. It takes some jogs to go around a supermarket while simultaneously morphing from a WOL to a NOL. Overtaking traffic and traffic coming in from my right at the first jog both get a partial side view. Given that the road narrows, they need to merge left instead of staying in my lane.

2) when I'm stopped in an intersection waiting for an opportunity to turn left, it's good to be visible from the side. With reflective sidewalls, I can also prop my front wheel sideways so oncoming traffic can see it. My reflective vest and jacket also contribute. In this situation, my eGear Guardians on my fork blades also provide a little active side visibility.

3) when I turn onto Highway 195, a 4-lane divided highway, side visibility helps me show up to oncoming traffic from both sides. Since I often have to stop in the median before crossing the second half of the highway, I'm a sitting duck when people coming down the second half of the highway dive into the turn lane to turn across the median. Side reflectivity and active lighting are both possible defenses (turn bars and helmet light towards the traffic).

4) when I turn off of Highway 195 onto Hatch Road, side visibility helps me show to the oncoming traffic coming down 195, some of which will also turn onto Hatch Road. Given that the first 1/2 mile of Hatch has bottlenecks, it's helpful for them to know in advance that there's a cyclist just ahead of them somewhere. Those reflective sidewalls, rim tape and fenders that went swooping across their path are hard to mistake for anything else. Also, the people trying to turn left from Hatch onto 195 are about 70 feet to my left when they launch, far enough for side reflectivity to help them see me before they broadside me.


As a side note, a red rear reflector visible for 600 feet in low-beam headlights is a legal requirement in my state. My taillights might be far superior in many situations to my reflectors, but if someone hits me, I want to have everything I was legally required to have, in case it ends in court. I don't want to be paying hospital bills AND repairs to the front end of someone's BMW.

Anyway, my commuting bikes fit the "all of the above, and more" category. I could get by with less, but hey
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Old 11-16-08 | 09:02 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by BarracksSi
Not saying that they don't work for you, and I figure you have lights anyway, but I'm just thinking about these...

1) Will lights help better than reflectors here? What I mean is, as traffic is merging (can't quite picture what you're describing) or going in and out of parking lots, their light isn't shining on you until you're in front of them; but lights will make you visible when you're to their side, where they would see you by looking out a side window or in mirrors for other traffic.
Maybe this Google Maps link will show the right spot for once: link See where W. 2nd Avenue angles downward and becomes S. Sunset Boulevard. This half-mile section of my commute is a bit... intense. Because of the angle of approach, yes, their headlights are aimed at me. The people merging in from the right at 1650 W. 2nd are facing towards potentially two lanes of oncoming automotive headlights coming slightly uphill at them. I'll take all the visibility I can get

2) and 3) What's the benefit of being seen from the side at an intersection or in a median? The traffic that might hit you from the side shouldn't be pointed towards you, so you wouldn't be a hazard anyway. When you cross, too, the cross traffic should be stopped or has enough of a gap where you can get through safely and not surprise them.
Think about all the times you've been in an intersection, trying to turn across oncoming traffic, and there's no gap. Light turns yellow, the oncoming people SPEED UP. Light turns red, and there you are, finally able to complete your turn... with cross-traffic rolling out on their green lights on both sides of you.

In the case of turning off the highway, the people trying to enter the highway have to sweep a 180° field of view to monitor four lanes of 60mph traffic for a gap. If I don't already have all my lights on, they're definitely turned on for this, but I am sometimes backlit by traffic and might blend in. If I do make it to my turning position, now I'm directly in front of people getting ready to tromp on it and get through the median and into their gap.

4) If you have decent lighting, drivers will see you before you swoop across their field of view. By the time you get into their headlights, they'll already know you're there.
Hopefully that's the case, but if you're on a busy divided highway, one bicyclist's headlight might not register from 500ft. range against a backdrop of oncoming motor vehicle headlights as everyone heads home from work. Odd hoops of light flying across the field of view, on a bike evidently ridden by Tron himself might get recognition.

I think my point is that reflectors are only good where headlights are pointed, and that's really pretty limited. Plenty of accidents happen where at least one party is nowhere near being lit up by headlights, and reflectors won't help there -- but lights do.
I completely agree, and have a whole web page devoted to the subject of passive lighting's shortcomings. Heck, I've seen people driving down Highway 195 with their lights turned OFF in complete darkness, figure that one out Still, in the situations where reflective stuff works, I think it can help motorists "connect the dots." Not everyone will want to go as overboard as I do, but some of the best options don't cost much to implement, like reflective legbands and maybe $10 worth of DOT Class II reflective tape.

Last edited by mechBgon; 11-17-08 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 11-16-08 | 09:08 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Depends on where and when you ride and the speed of the cars you ride amongst if that is enough.

Show them your Big Stick O' Taillights!
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Old 11-16-08 | 09:21 PM
  #31  
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I removed the front and rear reflectors to make room for a saddle bag, computer, and front and rear lights. I find that this is enough for my needs. The places I ride tend to be very well lit by street lights, so my front light is more for people to see me coming, rather than for me to illuminate things in my path. It's actually pretty useless for that purpose.
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Old 11-16-08 | 09:38 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by mechBgon
Show them your Big Stick O' Taillights!
Sure. This is about what I consider to be enuff to allay my "excitement" about visibility at a distance on high speed roads, but then I don't have the glow of a halo over my head to illuminate me.
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Old 11-16-08 | 10:40 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by apricissimus
I removed the front and rear reflectors to make room for a saddle bag, computer, and front and rear lights. I find that this is enough for my needs. The places I ride tend to be very well lit by street lights, so my front light is more for people to see me coming, rather than for me to illuminate things in my path. It's actually pretty useless for that purpose.
lights that light up the road do a much better job at showing traffic that you exist. I hate seeing a little tiny white dot coming at me, sure by now I know what they are but they still do not get my attention right away.
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Old 11-16-08 | 11:03 PM
  #34  
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I have a Fenix L2D-CE in the front, with a PB Superflash in the rear. My backpack has reflective stripes on it (Banjo Brothers) and my clipless shoes have reflective stuff on them too.

And I'm getting a Nova Bull.
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Old 11-16-08 | 11:44 PM
  #35  
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I run a 2"x4" red light on the back of my rack, with a little red flasher attached to my seatpost. My front light is Planet Bike 5 LED Beamer. Now that I am commuting more, I am thinking about getting something brighter than the Beamer I have.

My big beef is with people who only run flashing lights. I find them difficult to track in the dark. Consequently, my headlight and taillight are steady, with the only flasher on my seatpost.
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Old 11-17-08 | 04:05 AM
  #36  
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1 main + 2 backup in the rear end
2 headlights + 2 backup in the front
no reflectors, my lights are always on
auto charged when you ride.
no batteries needed.
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Old 11-17-08 | 09:10 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by BarracksSi
Then again, if you're going sideways in front of a car, you're either far enough away that your existence isn't an issue, or you're about to get hit anyway.
I would definetly take issue with that statement. riding past cross traffic waiting to enter the road you're riding on, making turns as vehicles approach, passing lines of motorists at stoplights turning onto the road you're travelling, are all instances where wheel reflectors and frame flecco tape heighten visibility and awareness of bicycling.

reflectors aren't all about 'imminent collision avoidance' but there's lots of ambiguous traffic conditions during which I'm glad to have an extra measure of nighttime visibility.

I keep a seat reflector on all my bikes to meet my state's laws about required bicycle equipment.
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Old 11-17-08 | 09:22 AM
  #38  
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Three stories to make the point of you can't possibly have enough:

I ride with a L&M HID front, Dinotte rear, SuperFlash on helmet, and about a square yard of reflective bits with a hi-viz yellow top. I still hear "sorry I didn't see you" once in a while.

LBS owner was telling me of a similarly equipped rider with the addition of Christmas lights on the helmet and torso. He was in the bike lane on a parkway. Driver stated she never saw him despite clear lines of sight and weather.

I pass a fire station on the way home. It's on a busy two-way street. The new fire engine, red with hi-viz yellow striping and all--every single one-- lights going full tilt boogie tried to turn out into the road. They had no success until laying on the sirens and horn.

Whatever you're packin' it ain't enough.
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Old 11-17-08 | 09:53 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Szczuldo
lights that light up the road do a much better job at showing traffic that you exist. I hate seeing a little tiny white dot coming at me, sure by now I know what they are but they still do not get my attention right away.
I get the feeling though that the light cast on the ground would get lost in the wash of all the street lights above.

Or maybe not. I don't know.
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Old 11-17-08 | 10:29 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by CastIron
Whatever you're packin' it ain't enough.
Sometimes it doesn't matter what you have. If people are not paying attention, you might not be able to make any difference in whether they see you.

Case in point: My brother is a paramedic/fireman, and last year they had some serious damage done to a large fire truck. It was parked on the road, brakes locked, all lights running, surrounded by other fire vehicles with lights running, police cars with lights running, barricades and a couple dozen guys walking around in full turnout gear. Some guy came in and hit the back of the truck with his pickup full speed (on the expressway). No skid marks whatsoever. Pushed the truck forward about 10 feet, which is quite impressive given the weight of the truck. The only good thing was that they had all the equipment right there to peel the bent steel out from around the puddle of jello and gristle that used to be the pickup driver.

Clearly, this guy managed to "not see" 4 fire trucks and 3 police cars with full EMT light packs, a dozen guys with tons of reflective stuff on them, AND a burning vehicle on the side of the road. The accident took place on the expressway in a section with no turns for over a mile. Even texting or using the phone is hard to believe as an excuse; that mess should have been visible for a minute before he got there.

For people like that, the only hope would be to have enough kilowatts of light that their hair catches fire from the beam. They might notice that.
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Old 11-17-08 | 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe
Sometimes it doesn't matter what you have. If people are not paying attention, you might not be able to make any difference in whether they see you.

Case in point: My brother is a paramedic/fireman, and last year they had some serious damage done to a large fire truck. It was parked on the road, brakes locked, all lights running, surrounded by other fire vehicles with lights running, police cars with lights running, barricades and a couple dozen guys walking around in full turnout gear. Some guy came in and hit the back of the truck with his pickup full speed (on the expressway). No skid marks whatsoever. Pushed the truck forward about 10 feet, which is quite impressive given the weight of the truck. The only good thing was that they had all the equipment right there to peel the bent steel out from around the puddle of jello and gristle that used to be the pickup driver.

Clearly, this guy managed to "not see" 4 fire trucks and 3 police cars with full EMT light packs, a dozen guys with tons of reflective stuff on them, AND a burning vehicle on the side of the road. The accident took place on the expressway in a section with no turns for over a mile. Even texting or using the phone is hard to believe as an excuse; that mess should have been visible for a minute before he got there.

For people like that, the only hope would be to have enough kilowatts of light that their hair catches fire from the beam. They might notice that.

it's not a matter of not seeing it is a case of rubber necking. it happens a lot when police pull motorists over. someone runs into them.
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Old 11-17-08 | 12:04 PM
  #42  
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Regular bikes: front/rear lights. Usually leave the reflectors on the back,will leave the front on if I don't need the bar space. Spoke reflectors I'll leave on,but won't replce them if they fall off. Reflective sidewall tires if I can.

Bad weather bike: front headlight and blinky,2 rear lights,reflective tape on headtube/seatstays/left chainstay,reflective sidewall tires.

I always try to get my tires with reflective sidewalls. Two big reflective hoops that can be seen from a very wide angle.
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Old 11-17-08 | 12:58 PM
  #43  
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All of the above here.

Reflector/tape is like Judo, use the lumens from the car for your advantage, reflect it back at them. Reflecting half the outputof a the typical car is going to throw more light than just about any setup i can run alone.
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Old 11-17-08 | 01:18 PM
  #44  
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Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?

About the fire truck that had to turn on its lights before anyone would let it out of the station -- well, of course. If it's not blaring its sirens, it must not be an emergency, so maybe it's just moving out into the driveway for some maintenance or something (not many people know what really happens inside the station). People might think, "Maybe they're just testing the lights..."

Originally Posted by Bekologist
I would definetly take issue with that statement. riding past cross traffic waiting to enter the road you're riding on, making turns as vehicles approach, passing lines of motorists at stoplights turning onto the road you're travelling, are all instances where wheel reflectors and frame flecco tape heighten visibility and awareness of bicycling.

reflectors aren't all about 'imminent collision avoidance' but there's lots of ambiguous traffic conditions during which I'm glad to have an extra measure of nighttime visibility.

I keep a seat reflector on all my bikes to meet my state's laws about required bicycle equipment.
I'm not saying that they don't work, I'm saying that a lot of the time they don't matter. Riding past cross traffic -- they're not looking straight ahead, they're looking to the side for traffic crossing their intended path, and their lights don't point to the side. Making turns as vehicles approach -- if you're turning close enough in front of them that they need to hit their brakes, you can cause problems behind them (whether people rear-end each other or change lanes to get around whoever suddenly stopped... and come around to hit you instead); wait some more and turn when it's safer for everybody. Passing lines of motorists at stoplights -- they're sitting at a stoplight and won't be coming towards you.

I don't think anyone here is dumb enough to rely on reflectors alone, though, so this probably isn't much of a problem anyway.
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Old 11-17-08 | 01:29 PM
  #45  
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Bad bad poll. No multiple choice, no other. I couldn't select any of the answers.

Headlight-- only need one, but make it a good one. You can carry a small flashlight for emergency if you like.
Taillight-- again only need one, if it's a good one.
Headlight blinkie, totally unnecessary.

Front fork clearnance blinking lights- essential for the driveway pull outs and idiots who just start turning and only think whoops, when see a light blinking right in their eyes.

Sadly the situation is likely to get worst. The new bright car/truck bluish tint lights are bad because 1. they hurt night vision, so other lights be will less noticable, and 2. they tend to be more floodlights than focused spotlights.
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Old 11-17-08 | 01:31 PM
  #46  
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My current setup is as follows:
2 headlights. Cheap things, to be replaced when I have the money
1 tail light on my trunkbag
1 Blue Flashflight Spokelit in each wheel.

When I'm towing my trailer, which is the first 2 miles out and last 2 back, I have an additional 2 blinkies on the trailer, set up nice and high, very visible and two red FlashFlight Spokelits, one on either side.

I also have a pretty good light mounted to my helmet. I'm pretty sure I look like a UFO coming down the street. And that is the intent.
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Old 11-17-08 | 01:37 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by HiYoSilver
Sadly the situation is likely to get worst. The new bright car/truck bluish tint lights are bad because 1. they hurt night vision, so other lights be will less noticable, and 2. they tend to be more floodlights than focused spotlights.
Actually, headlight optics have been improving ever since the old sealed beam headlights left the market. The best headlights these days (whether HID or halogen) hardly shine above horizontal (service manuals actually recommend aiming them below horizontal) and put out a fat, even spread of light on the ground with little or no hotspots. They do have a bit of spill angled up and to the side of the road (to the right for most of the world, and to the left for the UK, Japan, and other right-hand-drive countries) for better lighting of roadside signs and hazards.

My Dinotte lights up signs better than the headlights of the cars near me, but that's not because it's brighter (it isn't) -- it's because it just sprays light everywhere in a big circle.
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Old 11-17-08 | 04:02 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by uke
I already run both lights day and night, except in the daytime on campus or on the MUP.
If I need the reflectors to be seen, that's a sign that my lights aren't bright enough.
Word of caution: Most states require reflectors for the rear. Some require reflectors for the front and many require wheel reflectors. Check where you live. I know it's stupid since I run active lights front and rear and never depend on reflectors but I added mine back. You don't want some lawyer blaming you for his client voiding your third dimension because you weren't properly equipped.

As for lights, 3 front and at least 5 rear, one of which is on steady. No reflective tape or reflectors outside of what Colorado law requires.
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Old 11-17-08 | 04:09 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by apricissimus
I get the feeling though that the light cast on the ground would get lost in the wash of all the street lights above.

Or maybe not. I don't know.
A small light gets lost in all the background light. You don't really need that much light to ride in dark areas...not for illumination anyway. You might not need that much light for illumination in urban environments either. However I feel I need more light on lighted streets just to get above the background. You need to shout a little louder when everyone else is talking
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Old 11-17-08 | 04:26 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by ajmstilt
Reflecting half the outputof a the typical car is going to throw more light than just about any setup i can run alone.
If you really think you're reflecting back 700 lumens (ie, half the output of a typical car with two low beams), I'd wager you have no idea of what 700 lumens really look like.

Last edited by uke; 11-17-08 at 04:32 PM.
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