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Originally Posted by genec
(Post 8091186)
Long distance tourists know that steel is easily repaired with simple brazing... brazing that can be found in almost any auto shop anywhere in the world... thus making a steel frame easier to repair.
I would TIG it back together as the factory did or MIG. My last resort would be a brass filler rod. |
Originally Posted by ricohman
(Post 8097090)
I don't think Surly's are that special?
Who thinks there special? Lots of others I would consider over a Surly anyday. And have. They have certain plusses, but no one is suggesting the exclusion of other rides. |
This thread has made me weary.
It's snowing like crazy and 17 degrees. I'm going to go take my nothing special but built to my exact liking Surly Cross Check (winter set up) for a nice 20 mile loop and ponder why it's not very special. I'll get back to you in a couple hours and let you know. edit: I'm back , 20mh winds sheer ice under the snow, 2 crashes and a broken helmet later and my Surly is still a very very special bike to me. |
Originally Posted by bikebuddha
(Post 8092479)
A lot of people, myself included just find that steel rides better than aluminum.
I think steel rides great; however aluminum sells quicker and costs less On the other hand I am riding now a new sample aluminum commuter with 4130 fork and 8-speed nexus; the ride is rather nice I think In the steel vs aluminum debate - I think Ti wins if you can get the price right; which is a problem we are working on. {so far, it seems steel fans perfer Ti if price is right AND aluminum fans perfer Ti if the price is right} on balance; I think there is lots of room for all 4 popular materials Might be for another thread; but I would love to hear commuter comments on der vs internal hubs I sure am enjoying the Nexus-8 [but I live in Florida - which is flat] |
Originally Posted by Tabor
(Post 8091558)
Metricoclock,
I agree 100% with everything you said, except the with one caveat. I do believe that Surly is owned by QBP (a very large company).
Originally Posted by GV27
(Post 8091865)
According to the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surly_Bikes) they are owned by QBP. But don't let that deter you. The small little company is OWNED by QBP. Not run by them. They're smart enough to keep their mitts off of it. A lot of big companies aren't that smart and end up integrating it into the whole corporate structure and it's just a "brand". e.g. Gary Fischer. In this case they're not just a brand but rather a small relatively independent business where QBP get anything that may/may not happen to be left over at the end of the year.
Originally Posted by GV27
(Post 8091865)
Most small businesses run at about break-even. But they still have a small workforce that is supported by the company. That's where the real "profit" comes in. Rivendell is like this - they operate at or below break-even. But the final tally is after the owner pays himself. So just because they're owned by a large company doesn't mean they aren't a small business who's primary financial gain is to support a small group of employees. (yeah, I'm a pinko liberal and proud of it!)
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bikesdirect com....I just ordered your Phantom Cross Uno to put a Nexus 8 Redline into, so I will let you know what I think of the IGH in rolling MN commuter situations.
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Originally Posted by ricohman
(Post 8097163)
As a guy who owns three welders and an oxy/acet I think brazing would be my last choice.
I would TIG it back together as the factory did or MIG. My last resort would be a brass filler rod. |
Originally Posted by Banzai
(Post 8096699)
No, no, no.
I don't want to turn this into a steel v. aluminum debate (thought that train may have left the station) but everytime someone says "aluminum is more rigid/harsher/etc than steel" they open up another ignorance vortex on BikeForums. It's tubing diameter. Aluminum is 1/3 the stiffness of Reynolds 531...however, increasing tubing diameter 50% increases the stiffness of a tube by nearly a factor of 8. That is why aluminum bikes tend to be stiff and light...at 1/3 the weight of steel, you can make oversized tubing to get a frame that is 12%-15% stiffer than a steel frame, at the same weight as that flexier steel frame. To get corresponding frame stiffness out of steel, it would be insanely heavy, or you'd have to draw the steel to "beer can" thinness. No one would accuse an early Vitus aluminum bike of being anything other than a noodle. Aluminum can be made in smaller diamters to tune the ride. Steel could be made in large (and heavy) diameters to make for a harsh ride. Go find a Cannondale CAAD 9, squeeze the seat stays, then come back and tell me about "stiff" or "rigid" frames. If you want to look smart, next time you ride an Aluminum frame with a harsh feeling, tell someone about the harsh large tubing diameter ride of the bike. Any engineers present will likely applaud at your knowledge of materials and tubing construction. The other philistines will simply persist in believing that the harshness is simply a function of the material. I still like steel bikes, though; I've had several steel bikes, including the LHT, that are really comfortable for long rides, but I can't think of a single Al bike I've tried that I'd want to be on for nine hours at a stretch.... |
Man, all this Surly talk has me scheduling a fitting for a nice new LHT next Tuesday.
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Originally Posted by GV27
(Post 8097015)
Well, it IS a function of the material as the frame needs to be engineered with the material in mind. Aluminum has a very low fatigue life compared to steel. At it flexes it fatigues and then cracks.
The flexing of an aluminum bike (during the course of a normal ride) does not constitute a fatigue cycle. All the "fatigue cycle" talk on the forums is nothing more than another messageboard myth. |
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 8092415)
Ever been to Baja?
There are auto repair shops in the little towns along the way... but the odds that they have TIG welding gear are pretty small... and FedEX... yeah it delivers... provided you already have an import permit for the materials you want sent to you. Otherwise you have to go to a main town (Ensenada or La Paz) and go through customs to get the parts that were sent to you. Yeah we live in the era of the WWW and instant overnight delivery... unless you happen to be in a 3rd world location. And yes, being down there, indeed you are no more than a 2-3 day bus ride back to the US. But how much nicer if someone can just braze something for you that afternoon and you can continue your tour. BTW I once busted a spoke while touring the southern US... It was two days before I got to a bike shop that had any real variety in spokes enough to have the 14 ga. spoke to fit my Mavic wheels with Phil Wood hubs... Schwinn type parts I could have had. Now I'll roll my eyes... :rolleyes: Must suck to happen across a 3rd world location during your commute. |
Originally Posted by JeffS
(Post 8101991)
Wrong.
The flexing of an aluminum bike (during the course of a normal ride) does not constitute a fatigue cycle. All the "fatigue cycle" talk on the forums is nothing more than another messageboard myth. |
Originally Posted by GV27
(Post 8102232)
umm......ok.......so the cracks come built in?
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 8102281)
Ever watch the wings on an airplane as you take off and land? Lots of flexing. Yes fatigue and cracks are something they worry about and watch for but there's been aluminum planes in service for decades. And they see much greater loads and stresses plus much more use than a typical bike.
er...... http://www.kn.com.au/photos/uncategorized/aloha.jpg So the bike manufacturers say the issue is metal fatigue, several engineering papers blame metal fatigue. If that's not it, where do these cracks come from? It's a fact that most aluminum frames eventually develop cracks. If it's not fatigue due to flex cycling, what is it? I always love these posts that say "you're wrong" without saying what's right........ |
Originally Posted by GV27
(Post 8102382)
er......
http://www.kn.com.au/photos/uncategorized/aloha.jpg So the bike manufacturers say the issue is metal fatigue, several engineering papers blame metal fatigue. If that's not it, where do these cracks come from? It's a fact that most aluminum frames eventually develop cracks. If it's not fatigue due to flex cycling, what is it? I always love these posts that say "you're wrong" without saying what's right........ http://images.publicradio.org/conten...bridge7_33.jpg Less than a mile from here. Steel fails too. Is it really a fact that most aluminum frames crack? I'm sure it happens but I've never seen it. My folks have an old aluminum row boat from the 60's. It once had a pile gravel dumped on it by accident. It put a nice bend in it. No cracks in the hull inspite of that and frankly years of other abuses. It does have a crack in the front seat from people standing on top of it and rowing from there. Something the seat wasn't designed to accommodate. It's cracked but hasn't failed. |
Without stepping into it too deeply, if you are really interested in material properties and fatigue issues, Google "S-n diagram." Don't put a "M" for the "n", unless you looking for something NSFW.
For what it is worth, there are many variables, besides "aluminum versus steel" which effect fatigue limits. Different alloys, methods of joining, aging, heat treatment, surface treatment, type of fabrication (for example, cold working versus hot rolling) and coatings/platings can all have an effect. In general, the curve for aluminum does NOT level off. Not really an issue, as an informed engineer would simple pick a cycle count at least an order of magnitude beyond what the structure might see during its lifetime, and use that as the maximum stress allowed. If you really want *All* of the data on this issue, start digging in Mil Handbook 5h. |
Originally Posted by dobber
(Post 8090794)
To me, the Surly of today is the Schwinn of yesteryear. Just a good bike. Not pretentious, nothing flashy.
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Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
(Post 8103320)
Airplane- not a bicycle
Please stop comparing bicycles to airplanes, it does NOT make you look knowledgeable. I mean seriously.... What about a bamboo bike, I've seen bamboo scaffolding fail (gasp!). What about a CF bike? How about the airplane with a CF tail that fell off? (cry) Can I make an argument for steel? Absolutely! Will I waste my time? helllllll no!! Mkaythxbai CE PS Can you imagine a bicycle built to FAR (Federal Aviation Regulations) part 23? It'd cost $85,000 and require inspections before and after every ride, have mandatory replacement parts, including frame, after a set amount of time and/or cycles, pay a mechanic $150/hr for said inspections (including shop time) and you'd need a special certificate issued by the Feds with 35-60 hours of instruction. Please be real. And I think that using an airplane as an example of why aluminum is a worthy material for bikes frames is valid. You may not agree. That's fine. But I'll keep using it. Tell you what, I'll be real if you'll be real. Commercial airliners aren't the only kind of aluminum aircraft. I took my first parachute jump 3 years ago off of a plane built in the late forties/early 50's. The skydiving school operates on a plot of land in rural Wisconsin. The plane probably went up 10 times that day. Do you think it was inspected by $150/hr mechanic before and after every ride? |
Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 8103476)
Why not? A poster says that flexing degrades aluminum. I say I see airplane wings flex all the time.
And I think that using an airplane as an example of why aluminum is a worthy material for bikes frames is valid. You may not agree. That's fine. But I'll keep using it. Tell you what, I'll be real if you'll be real. Commercial airliners aren't the only kind of aluminum aircraft. I took my first parachute jump 3 years ago off of a plane built in the late forties/early 50's. The skydiving school operates on a plot of land in rural Wisconsin. The plane probably went up 10 times that day. Do you think it was inspected by $150/hr mechanic before and after every ride? It's not all about specialized knowledge. Life experience and common sense have value too. |
1 Attachment(s)
I love it when it comes to this.
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Originally Posted by CliftonGK1
(Post 8103589)
I love it when it comes to this.
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 8103554)
It's not all about specialized knowledge. Life experience and common sense have value too.
I like beer cans..... |
Originally Posted by Tabor
(Post 8103726)
The more important question is, what would Hitler have ridden? I think he would have ridden an Aluminum frame.
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The actual plane the skydiving place used at the time:
http://www.rabbitthole.com/photogall...19-06_1449.jpg I understand they now have something newer. To be honest when I first drove up and saw it sitting there, I thought it was just on display. Little did I know... The idea of jumping off a plane that old did give me pause, but not because I was afraid of a wing falling off or something. I was worried about cables breaking, pins snapping, fluid leaks, engines stalling, fires, - things of that nature. After flying on something like that I can't quite bring myself to believe that an aluminum bike frame can't be designed to flex at all or it will break. |
Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
(Post 8104234)
Come back when you know more about airplanes than jumping out of them.:rolleyes:
(and bicycles for that matter) CE |
Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 8104341)
You go ahead and feel free to come back whenever you like. :)
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 8104438)
Did you know that some Porches have Aluminum springs?
How come there are no comercially available fiberglass bikes? And not carbon weave. |
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this thread was originally interesting. then.....
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Originally Posted by crawdaddio
(Post 8104842)
this thread was originally interesting. then.....
I love my Cross Check, it is indeed special. |
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