Because these hibiscus fenders fit just right!

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1231136972

Is no one in the bike community familiar with Godwin's Law? I was just giving someone a good reason to end the thread.

It doesn't work if someone purposely invokes it. It must come up in the heat of the argument. Sorry, no banana. ;-)

Let me go back to a question I asked earlier in this thread....

If Surlys _aren't_ so special, what other comparable framesets can you buy that have similar braze-ons, etc. for comparable prices, or even less? Anybody?

-Jon

Soma

Because there is a rather large segment of the cycling community that are left unimpressed with MTB- and road-racing inspired bikes for their everyday commuting and recreational needs, and a large segment of that segment can't afford a custom, Waterford or Rivendell. My LHT is the single best cycling purchase I've ever made. As soon as I got it and set it up with accessories, it killed the pervasive bike- and schwag-lust that had been emptying my wallet for years. Great company, very in tune with where, when and how often Trek and Giant drop the ball.

Here you go.

$620 shipped from England and you get to pick the colour!

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/pr...products_id=43

(Note that the LHT allows wider tires, it looks like.)

Blows the LHT away for "bling"!!

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http://store.somafab.com/sodocrcyfr.html

Soma is $520 frame and fork. Better steel than the LHT. Made in Tiawan. Hmm, I think I like it! More of a "sport touring" wheel base.

I'd say the bling is higher on the Soma because fewer people talk about it.

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http://www.bikes.com/main+en+01_102+...tml?BIKE=610#3

For a complete, the Sherpa looks pretty good. It's a bit more expensive than the LHT but the frame looks to be nicer. The wheel base is shorter than the LHT and longer than the Soma.

Hand built (in Canuckistan) frame. Components might be better on the LHT complete. But everybody has an LHT!

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The Cannondale Touring (T1/T2) are pretty nice too (a bit more expensive than the LHT).

Ok, so I finally got around to looking at Soma again, and I am reminded what it was about their frames--nothing to touch the LHT--short chain stays, lack of braze-ons, and less flexible WRT tire sizes. Oh, and I think they are more expensive than the LHT. Does Jamis sell framesets?

-Jon

I don't own a Surly and there's a good chance I never will, but I do believe they make great products for those people who depend on their bike to get around.

I was always a little puzzled by the choice of bar end shifters for their complete bikes. I figured it was just a nod toward keeping things simple and cheaper to maintain (which it probably was). However yesterday it occurred to me that from a usability standpoint, bar ends are a really good choice for bikes used year round. STI paddles aren't the easiest things to operate with full finger gloves or mitts. Sora is fine and I imagine so is Campy, but Tiagra, 105, Ultegra, and DuraAce would be a challenge.

The reason I thought of this yesterday is that I happened to see a couple of Crosschecks making their way over the crappy roads.

Much wider. That's why they are special. They are practical, not bling. If you look at the recommendations in the touring forum, almost every bike has one or more real-world negative points against them. Not enough clearance, gearing too high, chainstays too short, etc. The points against the LHT are intangibles: too slow, ugly, don't like bar-end shifters, etc.

The LHT is a Taiwanese frame, too. Wouldn't surprise me if the Soma and Surly frames are coming from the same factory.
The Soma uses Tange Prestige vs the 4130 of the LHT. If you want to go with Reynolds equivalent tubing, it's the difference between 520 and 531 tubing. Depending on the draw of the tubing, Prestige vs Surly's 4130 may not have that great of a difference in yield strength. The Prestige tubing is lighter, though.
Is it worth $100 price difference for the frame/fork? I guess that's up to the individual.

When I bought my Cross-Check I looked at the Soma double cross. For the price of the cross-check frame and fork I could only have gotten a Soma Double Cross frame, no fork.

Started liking it (other than that it's a couple hundred more than the LHT), but that tire restriction---32s? I ride 35s and have no desire to go any smaller (at my weight....). For a touring bike, isn't 32 a bit on the low side?

Although I've never owned a LHT or any Surly, the more I personally look at them, the more special they do seem. It's like they know what people need (not necessarily "like" or "want") and supply that, minus the bling and buzzwords, and they do it at a price that seems more than reasonable when compared to others. I think that's what makes Surly special--at least, that's what I take away from this thread. :-D The OP may draw his own conclusions, but those are mine. The next time I'm in the States, I will be looking for a LHT frameset. That's for sure. :-)

-Jon

People's sense of sarcasm is a bit faulty!

The 32mm tire clearance on the Bob Jackson is with fenders. If you need (or want) more clearance, you'd have to go with the LHT. Bob Jackson has been building bikes long enough to prove that they are "practical" enough. The Jackson solves the "ugly" problem quite nicely! I like the LHT (and the other Surly products).

The Soma Doublecheck is rather different than the LHT. The double cross has heaps of braze ons (one version has canti and disk tabs). The comparable Surly would be the crosscheck. The Somas are only a bit more expensive.

Yes, both are made in Taiwan. (I was not implying that the LHT wasn't.)

The Tange/Reynolds tubing properties are well known. It's hard to say what the characteristics of the LHT tubing are. $100 is not much if it gets you what you want. The LHTs are nice.

That's with fenders. Send Bob Jackson an email. As far as I can tell, they've been making touring bikes for quite a while. For the class of frame and frame construction, the price is cheap (though I've never seen one).

Tire sizes can be a bit funny. A friend of mine put 35 cyclocross tires on a bike that I would not have though would have fit! (Though he ain't getting fenders on it too.)

The LHT frame is nice (I've actually seen one). You'll like it.

Yes, but my current bike, and the LHT can do greater than 35s with fenders. The web site doesn't show a photo with tires, that I could find, so it's hard to judge. It would be nice to know for sure, but I hate to bother someone, when I have no assurance I will buy the product, even if it does meet my need--again, the LHT _is_ cheaper--but yes, that frame is quite handsome on the BJ.

-Jon

I just ordered a Bob Jackson World Tour frame in December and it should arrive in the next few weeks. It cost $640 with shipping, insurance and currency exchange fees on my credit card. The standard rear spacing is 130mm for tires up to 32 mm, but they can make the rear spacing up to 140 mm.

As pointed out, Bob Jackson has been making tour frames since before Surley was a gleam in someone's eyes. I like Surleys and have few complaints (mainly the geometry), but the Jacksons are in a different league. They are lugged frames made from touring specific tubing (Reynolds 631), and can be painted in just about any color/decal combination you could imagine. For about $300 extra (and 6-9 months wait), they will build you a frame with custom geometry. Mercian will do the same thing for a comparable price.

I'd be interested in seeing pics of your frame when it's built up. I am certainly curious about the tire sizes. :-) I don't know what you don't like about the LHT geometry, but what I _do_ like about it is that it is very similar to my old Raleigh's, which was the most comfortable bike I remember riding. Long, relaxed wheel base, and heavily raked fork. Not a "snazzy" looking bike, but great for the long haul, and when loaded down. I don't do "touring" any more, but I do load my bike down when commuting, and appreciate the extra shock absorption the long wheel base and fork rake give. Beyond all the rest, this is one reason the LHT really appeals to me.

-Jon

Agreed. I had been looking for a durable commuter that would support my heavy butt. 36 spoke wheels and beefy components are standard & the frame was very comfortable (no clearance problems with full panniers and big feet either). I gave Trek, Cannondale, and Giant's touring bikes test rides as well and preferred the Surly. It also was the cheapest of the 4. Smaller riders will have a greater choice of touring or commuting frames (clearance / weight issues) so their decision would have less restrictions than mine did...

So what? It still cannot take 35mm tires with fenders!

My fiance & I have a Surly & a Bob Jackson that was custom made for her. The Surly is probably a much more substantial frame & fork. The Bob Jackson is much prettier & is an excellent ride. The paint on the Surly is tougher. It depends upon what you want between the two of them. If you want something that is possibly the most sturdy chromoly frame & fork, go with the Surly. If you want something pretty (and quite sturdy too) with just about any color available, go with the Bob Jackson.

Godwin's law is just a statement of probability (longer the thread, likelihood of Hitler being invoked approaches 1). You just shortcircuited it, BF threads can usually go a lot longer before der Fuhrer comes up.

You could be doing the Bob Jackson company a favor by asking the question even if you don't buy the bike from them.

Probably, there is no appreciable difference in "substantialness". It could be that the Jackson is stronger (given the material it's made from).

If Surly made lugged frames, they'd be much more special.

Why are Surlys so special? Because no one would start a thread titled, "Why are Treks so special?"

True. But fashion aside, one can purchase an old Trek from the 80s that will fit largish tires, have horizontal drop outs, look a lot better, and be a lot lighter than a Surly, for about 1/3 to 1/4th the price. ($1000 for a complete crosscheck with the components they've chosen is crazy. And the thing is, unlike all the other bikes that may have that msrp but sell for a lot less in reality, the Surly bikes are so trendy they don't really have a "street price" that is lower than msrp. For example, I got this $1399 msrp Bianchi for $650 out the door and it's much better equipped in my opinion. You'll never find deals like that on a Surly).

I love my Crosscheck, I've had it longer and have ridden it more than any other bike. And I really loved it once I stripped all the garbage off of it and went fixed. It's a bit heavy still, but it's comfortable as hell and I don't feel like I have to baby it. There are probably better bikes for the money, but I don't care. My bean-green CC's decals are pretty much worn off--good riddance--and it looks like a bike not quite worth stealing. It's a comfortable ride, and it is ridable for any condition I care to ride in--I don't need multiple bikes, so it's cheap if you look at it from that perspective! :lol:

I think all three of those frames are better than the Surlys. The Mercier is built with Reynolds steel tubing, the Surlys are built with cheapo cromo tubing. The Surlys weight a lot. Those 3 frames use better quality tubing and are cheaper.
I think Surly is just good at marketing. Thier frames/bikes are not bad by any means, just over priced when comparing to similiar/better products.

Really? My CrossCheck says 631. It's an early model. :innocent:

Sorry I guess I was just refering to the steamroller on the tubing

You're right anyway, I think. The early CCs had 631, then they went to the cheaper stuff, if I'm not mistaken.