Visibility: Being Seen At Night
#1
Thread Starter
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Visibility: Being Seen At Night
I’ve run across a lot of discussions in various bike forums about the best way to be visible at night. Much of it is wrong, or at least off the mark. I can safely say this because I have a phd on the topics of visibility and conspicuity, have studied them for 38 years and have investigated many accidents. Here’s my opinion on the best way for bicyclists to ensure being seen at night.
1. Lights, especially flashing lights. This is obvious and requires no explanation. However, lights alone are not enough. They merely “point sources” of light, whose distance can be hard for a driver to judge. Moreover, they can be difficult to interpret ,especially when there are other lights in the background.
2. Reflective vest. It provides a much bigger surface driver to see and is less likely to be lost in the background. I wouldn’t even remotely consider bicycling at night without one. Don't negate the benefit with by wearing a backpack, unless the backpack is also reflective.
3. Be where you are supposed to be. Driver perception is largely governed by expectation, and drivers have strong expectations about where various road objects will be. Don’t violate those expectations if you expect to be seen. I see routinely encounter bicyclists going through STOP signs and red lights, pedaling on the wrong side of the road, going the wrong way down one way streets, driving off sidewalks, etc. This is very risky.
4. Don’t pedal on roads with speed limits above about 40-50 mph. At such speeds, the closing rate is high and the time to overtake is short. Car headlamps just don’t put out enough light for a driver to reliably see and to respond in time. Further, drivers don’t expect to encounter bicycles on such higher speed roads. If you must bike on such roads, stay on the shoulder, even if the ride bumpier.
5. Don’t rely on drivers to see you. One consistent research finding is that pedestrians and bicyclists vastly overestimate their visibility to drivers. Pedestrians and bicyclists see the big bright car headlamps and unconscious believe that they must be as visible to the driver as the car is to them. They aren’t.
Lastly, if you haven't done any other these things and never been in an accident, don't think that you are immune. It just takes the right (or should I say wrong) confluence of events. You have been lucky and never have the confluence happened, but that doesn't mean that it won't in the future. Smart people play the odds. These suggestions improve your odds.
Regards,
Marc Green, author Forensic Vision: With Applications To Highway Safety.
1. Lights, especially flashing lights. This is obvious and requires no explanation. However, lights alone are not enough. They merely “point sources” of light, whose distance can be hard for a driver to judge. Moreover, they can be difficult to interpret ,especially when there are other lights in the background.
2. Reflective vest. It provides a much bigger surface driver to see and is less likely to be lost in the background. I wouldn’t even remotely consider bicycling at night without one. Don't negate the benefit with by wearing a backpack, unless the backpack is also reflective.
3. Be where you are supposed to be. Driver perception is largely governed by expectation, and drivers have strong expectations about where various road objects will be. Don’t violate those expectations if you expect to be seen. I see routinely encounter bicyclists going through STOP signs and red lights, pedaling on the wrong side of the road, going the wrong way down one way streets, driving off sidewalks, etc. This is very risky.
4. Don’t pedal on roads with speed limits above about 40-50 mph. At such speeds, the closing rate is high and the time to overtake is short. Car headlamps just don’t put out enough light for a driver to reliably see and to respond in time. Further, drivers don’t expect to encounter bicycles on such higher speed roads. If you must bike on such roads, stay on the shoulder, even if the ride bumpier.
5. Don’t rely on drivers to see you. One consistent research finding is that pedestrians and bicyclists vastly overestimate their visibility to drivers. Pedestrians and bicyclists see the big bright car headlamps and unconscious believe that they must be as visible to the driver as the car is to them. They aren’t.
Lastly, if you haven't done any other these things and never been in an accident, don't think that you are immune. It just takes the right (or should I say wrong) confluence of events. You have been lucky and never have the confluence happened, but that doesn't mean that it won't in the future. Smart people play the odds. These suggestions improve your odds.
Regards,
Marc Green, author Forensic Vision: With Applications To Highway Safety.
#2
Señior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
I do all the others, but #4 would mean no riding for me. There are NO roads anywhere near where I live, apart from the few hundred yards of subdivision road, with speed limits < 50 MPH.
And there IS no shoulder there. It's in the lane or in gravel that's basically impossible to ride in without fat tires.
What high speed REALLY means is that I need lights that can't be missed from 1/2 mile.
Honestly, I think I am actually saver on the rural 50 MPH roads than on many 35 MPH roads in town, and possibly even the 25 MPH roads. That's because on the 50 MPH roads, there's very little traffic and anyone can see me from very far away. In town it's very likely that I'll be lost in the visual noise, or people won't be able to see me behind other vehicles or obstacles.
Every close call that I've ever had has been in areas with low speed limits. I haven't had a lot though. On the high speed roads, I've never had anyone even pass close; people either give me the whole lane or they wait behind me.
There are drivers who won't see you no matter what you do, because they're not looking. My brother is a fireman and they had a fire truck damaged buy a guy who hit it in broad daylight with all its lights running, a car on fire billowing smoke in front of it, and many other emergency vehicles around it. He came in at 70 MPH and hit it at full speed. Apparently he didn't see it (we'll never know, because you can't get answers out of a pile of bloody gristle). There's no defense against those people.
Here's my favorite "didn't see it" video. How can you know that anything would be visible to morons like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQfK3HFaXFw
And there IS no shoulder there. It's in the lane or in gravel that's basically impossible to ride in without fat tires.
What high speed REALLY means is that I need lights that can't be missed from 1/2 mile.
Honestly, I think I am actually saver on the rural 50 MPH roads than on many 35 MPH roads in town, and possibly even the 25 MPH roads. That's because on the 50 MPH roads, there's very little traffic and anyone can see me from very far away. In town it's very likely that I'll be lost in the visual noise, or people won't be able to see me behind other vehicles or obstacles.
Every close call that I've ever had has been in areas with low speed limits. I haven't had a lot though. On the high speed roads, I've never had anyone even pass close; people either give me the whole lane or they wait behind me.
There are drivers who won't see you no matter what you do, because they're not looking. My brother is a fireman and they had a fire truck damaged buy a guy who hit it in broad daylight with all its lights running, a car on fire billowing smoke in front of it, and many other emergency vehicles around it. He came in at 70 MPH and hit it at full speed. Apparently he didn't see it (we'll never know, because you can't get answers out of a pile of bloody gristle). There's no defense against those people.
Here's my favorite "didn't see it" video. How can you know that anything would be visible to morons like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQfK3HFaXFw
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Last edited by ItsJustMe; 05-27-10 at 09:48 AM.
#3
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,053
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From: Alexandria, VA
Bikes: Trek 830 Mountain Track Drop bar conversion
4. Don’t pedal on roads with speed limits above about 40-50 mph. At such speeds, the closing rate is high and the time to overtake is short. Car headlamps just don’t put out enough light for a driver to reliably see and to respond in time. Further, drivers don’t expect to encounter bicycles on such higher speed roads. If you must bike on such roads, stay on the shoulder, even if the ride bumpier.
I don't necessarily disagree w/ your advice, but I don't necessarily like the logic used to reach said conclusion or the tone, especially when paired w/ the typical "don't go through stop signs" message. Two words on the stop sign thing: Idaho Stop. Safer, easier better for cyclists. Coming to a full and complete stop at every stop sign when on a bike does not improve safety.
#5
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 435
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From: Seattle, WA
Bikes: Giant OCR1
1. Yes, but what lights, set up how? The options are endless. I go with three Superflashes on the back, one on the bicycle, two on my bag, with one of the on my bag set to solid and the other two on flashy mode. I plan on buying a set of Cateye's new amber wheel running lights (finally, finally, finally, someone made amber running lights). Up front I have a Dinotte 200L and a blinkie. Ideally I'd like to have something like the the CygoLite MiliOn on my helmet as well.
2. Reflectivity is not really something I focus on. A vest would be useless as I ride a road bike, usually in the drops, and have a giant mess bag on. A high viz jacket helps, and I wear one in the heart of winter when it's dark and rainy on my ride in and when I ride home, but most of the year I don't bother with high viz clothing. My road bicycle doesn't have any reflective material on it other than what's on my saddle bag, although my gloves and mess bag both have reflective elements built in. My touring bike has tires with reflective sidewalls.
3. Yep. If you wouldn't do it driving a car, don't do it on a bicycle (with a few exceptions like riding on the shoulder where legal).
4. Best avoided, but this is fine if you're in a group.
5. Yep. Make yourself as visible as possible, but never expect anyone to see you.
Adding to your list:
6. A big bright "see-stuff" headlight is supposedly one of the best things you can do for your side visibility.
7. Have lights at different vertical levels. On the bike, on your helmet, on your bag. Also have lights both on your person and your bike, that way if you do go down, and are laying unconscious in the road, you or your bike have less chance of being run over.
8. Remember that the faster-than-they-expect effect is even worse at night, regardless of how well lit up you are. When you're a point of light, or a series of points, don't expect motorists to accurately estimate your speed, especially if you're doing 30 - 40 mph in a downhill section.
2. Reflectivity is not really something I focus on. A vest would be useless as I ride a road bike, usually in the drops, and have a giant mess bag on. A high viz jacket helps, and I wear one in the heart of winter when it's dark and rainy on my ride in and when I ride home, but most of the year I don't bother with high viz clothing. My road bicycle doesn't have any reflective material on it other than what's on my saddle bag, although my gloves and mess bag both have reflective elements built in. My touring bike has tires with reflective sidewalls.
3. Yep. If you wouldn't do it driving a car, don't do it on a bicycle (with a few exceptions like riding on the shoulder where legal).
4. Best avoided, but this is fine if you're in a group.
5. Yep. Make yourself as visible as possible, but never expect anyone to see you.
Adding to your list:
6. A big bright "see-stuff" headlight is supposedly one of the best things you can do for your side visibility.
7. Have lights at different vertical levels. On the bike, on your helmet, on your bag. Also have lights both on your person and your bike, that way if you do go down, and are laying unconscious in the road, you or your bike have less chance of being run over.
8. Remember that the faster-than-they-expect effect is even worse at night, regardless of how well lit up you are. When you're a point of light, or a series of points, don't expect motorists to accurately estimate your speed, especially if you're doing 30 - 40 mph in a downhill section.
#6
xtrajack
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 0
From: Maine
Bikes: Kona fire mountain/xtracycle,Univega landrover fs,Nishiki custom sport Ross professional super gran tour Schwinn Mesa (future Xtracycle donor bike)
Shiny, I nailed it right the first time:
Three white lights in front, three red lights to the rear, a Down Low Glow, a lighted reflective vest (set to slow flash) and turn signal/marker lights. I also have reflective tape on my rear fender, bike frame and on my safety flag pole, as well as the CPSC required reflectors.
I have been told that I am very visible. However, I still worry about my visibility.
Three white lights in front, three red lights to the rear, a Down Low Glow, a lighted reflective vest (set to slow flash) and turn signal/marker lights. I also have reflective tape on my rear fender, bike frame and on my safety flag pole, as well as the CPSC required reflectors.
I have been told that I am very visible. However, I still worry about my visibility.
#7
Very, very Senior Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,224
Likes: 1
From: Chicago
Bikes: 2012 Surly Troll, 1999 Hardtail MTB
I’ve run across a lot of discussions in various bike forums about the best way to be visible at night. Much of it is wrong, or at least off the mark. I can safely say this because I have a phd on the topics of visibility and conspicuity, have studied them for 38 years and have investigated many accidents. Here’s my opinion on the best way for bicyclists to ensure being seen at night.
1. Lights, especially flashing lights. This is obvious and requires no explanation. However, lights alone are not enough. They merely “point sources” of light, whose distance can be hard for a driver to judge. Moreover, they can be difficult to interpret ,especially when there are other lights in the background.
2. Reflective vest. It provides a much bigger surface driver to see and is less likely to be lost in the background. I wouldn’t even remotely consider bicycling at night without one. Don't negate the benefit with by wearing a backpack, unless the backpack is also reflective.
3. Be where you are supposed to be. Driver perception is largely governed by expectation, and drivers have strong expectations about where various road objects will be. Don’t violate those expectations if you expect to be seen. I see routinely encounter bicyclists going through STOP signs and red lights, pedaling on the wrong side of the road, going the wrong way down one way streets, driving off sidewalks, etc. This is very risky.
4. Don’t pedal on roads with speed limits above about 40-50 mph. At such speeds, the closing rate is high and the time to overtake is short. Car headlamps just don’t put out enough light for a driver to reliably see and to respond in time. Further, drivers don’t expect to encounter bicycles on such higher speed roads. If you must bike on such roads, stay on the shoulder, even if the ride bumpier.
5. Don’t rely on drivers to see you. One consistent research finding is that pedestrians and bicyclists vastly overestimate their visibility to drivers. Pedestrians and bicyclists see the big bright car headlamps and unconscious believe that they must be as visible to the driver as the car is to them. They aren’t.
Lastly, if you haven't done any other these things and never been in an accident, don't think that you are immune. It just takes the right (or should I say wrong) confluence of events. You have been lucky and never have the confluence happened, but that doesn't mean that it won't in the future. Smart people play the odds. These suggestions improve your odds.
Regards,
Marc Green, author Forensic Vision: With Applications To Highway Safety.
1. Lights, especially flashing lights. This is obvious and requires no explanation. However, lights alone are not enough. They merely “point sources” of light, whose distance can be hard for a driver to judge. Moreover, they can be difficult to interpret ,especially when there are other lights in the background.
2. Reflective vest. It provides a much bigger surface driver to see and is less likely to be lost in the background. I wouldn’t even remotely consider bicycling at night without one. Don't negate the benefit with by wearing a backpack, unless the backpack is also reflective.
3. Be where you are supposed to be. Driver perception is largely governed by expectation, and drivers have strong expectations about where various road objects will be. Don’t violate those expectations if you expect to be seen. I see routinely encounter bicyclists going through STOP signs and red lights, pedaling on the wrong side of the road, going the wrong way down one way streets, driving off sidewalks, etc. This is very risky.
4. Don’t pedal on roads with speed limits above about 40-50 mph. At such speeds, the closing rate is high and the time to overtake is short. Car headlamps just don’t put out enough light for a driver to reliably see and to respond in time. Further, drivers don’t expect to encounter bicycles on such higher speed roads. If you must bike on such roads, stay on the shoulder, even if the ride bumpier.
5. Don’t rely on drivers to see you. One consistent research finding is that pedestrians and bicyclists vastly overestimate their visibility to drivers. Pedestrians and bicyclists see the big bright car headlamps and unconscious believe that they must be as visible to the driver as the car is to them. They aren’t.
Lastly, if you haven't done any other these things and never been in an accident, don't think that you are immune. It just takes the right (or should I say wrong) confluence of events. You have been lucky and never have the confluence happened, but that doesn't mean that it won't in the future. Smart people play the odds. These suggestions improve your odds.
Regards,
Marc Green, author Forensic Vision: With Applications To Highway Safety.
I am happy to say that I'm in compliance with all five points. One follow-up question, have you looked into what lights and how brightness, color, direction etc affect visibility?
#8
The Alberta Randonneurs Club suggests using a reflective strap on your left ankle, i.e., a moving body part. Makes sense to me that something in motion would attract more attention than a static reflective object, similar to how blinking lights are more noticeable than solid.
That said, a distracted driver is a distracted driver, and being lit up like Times Square won't protect you from that (past posts on this forum have demonstrated this).
That said, a distracted driver is a distracted driver, and being lit up like Times Square won't protect you from that (past posts on this forum have demonstrated this).
#9
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Brussels, Belgium
Bikes: Road Bike
Interesting thread. I just stay on the sidewalk at night if I don't feel safe (I live in big city with large boulevards and angry drivers). A few pedestrians sometimes get upset but hey what can you do. What's the best light set you can get ? Is there a better than average brand ? I use plain and simple flashing lights but thinking of acquiring some powerfull light next winter.
#10
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
From: La Pequeña'vana (Miami)
Bikes: 2008 Specialized Tricross Singlecross w/ Alfine hub, 198x Nishiki Olympic (2x: first nicked, second left at move :(...), Iron Horse beater (also gone), RIP 1998 Rockhopper (cracked frame; lost fight with Ford Focus)
3 is especially important. Our perception is shaped by what we expect to see to the extent that a driver (or cyclist) can look for incoming (car) traffic at an intersection and then drive through without even noticing a cyclist approaching said intersection. I was shocked when it happened to me a few months ago. Got a courtesy cussing from the cyclist...
Funny, i've never heard a California Stop be referred to as an Idaho Stop. 
Must be my upbringing...

Must be my upbringing...
#11
Señior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
Lots of us do pretty well with the new breed of LED lights. Go to www.geomangear.com and look at Magicshine. For about $150, you can get a headlight+taillight combo that should be good enough for any reasonable on-street ride, complete with batteries. Personally I think my safety is worth enough that I couldn't justify NOT spending that kind of money on lights.
In the more modest area, a Planet Bike Superflash (or better yet, two) on the back, and a flashlight from ShiningBeam can be put together for well < $100. It won't be the retina searing power of the Magicshine, but it'll be better than anything you're likely to find for anywhere near that price locally.
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Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
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#12
Señior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
However, the Idaho Stop is a real legal thing, and is bike specific. It means that cyclists can treat stop signs as yield signs. It allows them to stop if needed but maintain momentum if not. Keeping the speed up generally is a good thing, it allows you to keep up with traffic so you have less instances of cars passing you per trip.
States that have implemented "stop as yield" laws have seen reductions in bicycle accidents.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
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#13
cars are fun
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
From: Baton Rouge, LA
I have a question relating to #2. I found out recently that the DOT in Alabama (not sure if it's OSHA too) has changed its required vests for road crews from orange to neon green. A civil engineer and I have speculated that they probably found that orange vests were too similar to other construction orange cones, barriers, etc.
Are you guys wearing prodominately orange or green vests? Is the green easier to see at night?
Are you guys wearing prodominately orange or green vests? Is the green easier to see at night?
#14
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,896
Likes: 7
From: Raleigh, NC
Bikes: Waterford RST-22, Bob Jackson World Tour, Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Soma Saga, De Bernardi SL, Specialized Sequoia
All very good advice. I am continually amazed by cyclists I see riding in the dark or near-dark wearing dark clothing and no lights or a small, dim blinky in the back.
I always wear brightly colored jerseys, vests or jackets when riding in the dark. By bright, I mean neon green or with lots of yellow. I use 2 headlights and 3 tail-lights for added visibility and redundancy because I've had batteries go dead on many occasions. I also use a reflective ankle band and have reflective sidewalls on one my bikes that I use for commuting.
I always wear brightly colored jerseys, vests or jackets when riding in the dark. By bright, I mean neon green or with lots of yellow. I use 2 headlights and 3 tail-lights for added visibility and redundancy because I've had batteries go dead on many occasions. I also use a reflective ankle band and have reflective sidewalls on one my bikes that I use for commuting.
#15
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 684
Likes: 8
From: Jersey City, NJ
Bikes: Jamis Coda Elite - custom 1x9 setup
agreed and i think they should be given tickets actually. a bright rear light and a bright front one should be mandatory if you wish to share the roads during dusk to dark hours. it is unfair to a vehicle to not be visible. this does not just affect you as the biker (like choosing to wear a helmet or not), this affects other vehicles in the road.
#16
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
From: La Pequeña'vana (Miami)
Bikes: 2008 Specialized Tricross Singlecross w/ Alfine hub, 198x Nishiki Olympic (2x: first nicked, second left at move :(...), Iron Horse beater (also gone), RIP 1998 Rockhopper (cracked frame; lost fight with Ford Focus)
Residents of every state I've ever heard of talk about rolling stop signs as a (your state here) stop.
However, the Idaho Stop is a real legal thing, and is bike specific. It means that cyclists can treat stop signs as yield signs. It allows them to stop if needed but maintain momentum if not. Keeping the speed up generally is a good thing, it allows you to keep up with traffic so you have less instances of cars passing you per trip.
States that have implemented "stop as yield" laws have seen reductions in bicycle accidents.
However, the Idaho Stop is a real legal thing, and is bike specific. It means that cyclists can treat stop signs as yield signs. It allows them to stop if needed but maintain momentum if not. Keeping the speed up generally is a good thing, it allows you to keep up with traffic so you have less instances of cars passing you per trip.
States that have implemented "stop as yield" laws have seen reductions in bicycle accidents.
I've always felt that a complete stop with cars behind me was more dangerous, so it's nice to know that's in fact true.I grew up in Idaho and I think we called it the California Stop due to the many college students in town with CA plates practicing that kind of driving. I know that tickets were handed out for it, so it's not like it's just a free-for-all there...
Re: orange vs. green reflective vests. It's my understanding that the eye is most sensitive to green light so it makes sense that a green reflector would be more visible.
#17
Plays in traffic
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,971
Likes: 15
From: Rochester, NY
Bikes: 1996 Litespeed Classic, 2006 Trek Portland, 2013 Ribble Winter/Audax, 2016 Giant Talon 4
In all other states, legally, you must come to a full stop no matter what kind of vehicle--and yes, bicycles are considered vehicles under the law.
Sorry, Didn't mean to flog a dead horse.

I hadn't read to the end of the thread before replying.
Last edited by tsl; 05-28-10 at 10:24 AM.
#18
Plays in traffic
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,971
Likes: 15
From: Rochester, NY
Bikes: 1996 Litespeed Classic, 2006 Trek Portland, 2013 Ribble Winter/Audax, 2016 Giant Talon 4
I found out recently that the DOT in Alabama (not sure if it's OSHA too) has changed its required vests for road crews from orange to neon green. A civil engineer and I have speculated that they probably found that orange vests were too similar to other construction orange cones, barriers, etc.
It's recently become a color code, known as the "Color of Life". They're reverted to red for fire trucks, yellow for construction equipment and so on, reserving ANSI-Lime for people. This is why construction worker's safety vests changed form orange to lime. So in a work zone, objects--like cones and barrels--are coded orange, and people are coded in ANSI-Lime. I guess it's because it's okay to run over a cone, but not that guy standing next to it.
Road signage is changing too. Things like pedestrian crossing signs, bike crossing signs, and school zone signs all used to be color-coded yellow, along with all other warning signs. Now, those signs are color-coded ANSI-Lime, to indicate they refer to people.
Last edited by tsl; 05-28-10 at 10:21 AM.
#20
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 230
Likes: 1
From: State College PA
Bikes: Cannondale T2000, Dean el Diente
Marc, thanks for the tips. I have a couple questions.
First, regarding flashing vs. non-flashing lights, my impression is that flashing lights are more attention-getting but are harder to localize. Also, flashing lights seem more prone to target-fixation (I think that's the right term) issues. Can you comment on this?
Also, thanks for listing what should be done, but you note at the beginning that much of what is posted here about visibility is wrong. Can you identify and debunk the common misperceptions?
First, regarding flashing vs. non-flashing lights, my impression is that flashing lights are more attention-getting but are harder to localize. Also, flashing lights seem more prone to target-fixation (I think that's the right term) issues. Can you comment on this?
Also, thanks for listing what should be done, but you note at the beginning that much of what is posted here about visibility is wrong. Can you identify and debunk the common misperceptions?
#21
Señior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
There's no point in asking him questions. He created the account to come in here and preach, he's gone home. I doubt he'll ever log in again. He created the account, posted this one thing and disappeared.
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Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
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#22
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,053
Likes: 0
From: Alexandria, VA
Bikes: Trek 830 Mountain Track Drop bar conversion
drmarc, just in case you ever do log on again - thanks for the paternalistic pontification!
#23
hmmm.... https://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/olderdrivers.html
I was having a little trouble getting over the grammar/misspellings and wondered if the guy was for real. guess so. I was already doing these anyway and did my homework earlier. he should have stuck around if he was serious about helping out here.
I was having a little trouble getting over the grammar/misspellings and wondered if the guy was for real. guess so. I was already doing these anyway and did my homework earlier. he should have stuck around if he was serious about helping out here.
#24
Señior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,748
Likes: 10
From: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
hmmm.... https://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/olderdrivers.html
I was having a little trouble getting over the grammar/misspellings and wondered if the guy was for real. guess so. I was already doing these anyway and did my homework earlier. he should have stuck around if he was serious about helping out here.
I was having a little trouble getting over the grammar/misspellings and wondered if the guy was for real. guess so. I was already doing these anyway and did my homework earlier. he should have stuck around if he was serious about helping out here.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.








