I don't have a problem with it. Joggers I put on my right hand side (so it would be curb, jogger, me, cars), the last one didn't seem to like that though. If you are a salmoning biker, you are riding in the traffic lane and I not slowing down.

Now, on the MUP, they should be going in the same direction, but how do you enforce that? Last week on the commute (it was nice out, so lots of "traffic") I weaved down one stretch as there were people all over the MUP...

I don't like that logic. If you are riding in the street next to a bike lane, but not in it, and a car hits you... Does that mean you are at fault? I know there are other rules about peds in the street etc..

I would say yes. I am not where I am supposed to be. If there is no bike lane, then I am entitled to the right lane and therefore it's OK for me to be in the road.

If the bike lane has any signage that says it's OK for joggers/runners, then that's OK too. But I've never seen one where I live/ride.

What about cyclists going the wrong way in the bike lane? That one irks me.

Keep in mind that I am in now way ANGRY about any of this... just an annoyance. I do't see me going to any anger management classes over this stuff!

Its okay for you to be in the road for various reasons if there is a bike lane too. Left turn? Debris in the bike lane? Parked cars? Cars turning right from the bike lane? One is still required to maintain control of their vehicle/bike/position regardless if the other person isn't "supposed" to be there.

So I move right out of the bike lane to prepare for my left turn ahead. Car runs me down from behind even though there was ample space when I moved into the lane. My fault?

These threads really make me appreciate my little town. The sidewalks are virtually empty, so I ride on them when I want to. Traffic is light and the lanes are wide, so cars usually give me plenty of room. (Though some guy did honk at me this morning, in what I interpreted as a get-out-of-the-road-you-stupid-biker message.)

Asphalt is indeed more forgiving to a runner than concrete. It makes me question the possibility of paving sidewalks in asphalt rather than concrete. City planners would have to accept that, and I see durability being the greatest argument against it. But as running has become more popular, it is a change whose time may have come. Perhaps it could be implemented in a few select areas, where runners are more prevalent. In some areas, it might even make sense to lay down the same material used for a running track. I'm sure it's more expensive, but cost isn't the only criteria to consider.

I remember cycling through Germany over a decade ago, and seeing the bikers actually seek out and target pedestrians who strayed into the bike path. Most streets had street-side parking for cars, then a bike lane, and then a pedestrian lane. Sometimes the parking was absent, but there were always segregated lanes for riding and walking. Sometimes they were marked with painted symbols of a bike or a walker; sometimes they were unmarked and divided simply by a crack in the concrete. But everyone knew which lane was for which. Every rider in Germany has a bell mounted on their handlebars, and the loud ding of that bell could mean any number of things: "Good Morning," "Excuse Me," or even "F-You." And if some little old lady with her arms straining under the weight of her grocery bags dared to stumble into the bike lane for a moment, you would watch in horror as an approaching cyclist leaned out and lowered his shoulder in preparation for a 30-mile-per-hour assault. As late as possible, he would ding that little bell, as if the "rules" required him to give some kind of warning before he bowled over the unsuspecting pedestrian. But as that bell rang forth, you would see all of the pedestrians in earshot straighten up and take note of their position--and then watch that little old lady come to life and dart from the bike path with a speed that belied her age. And this wasn't just the young and obnoxious riders that you would see do this. A fifty-year-old investment banker in a suit was just as likely to take out an errant walker. Those Germans are hardcore, and they seemed to approach punishment for a misdeed with glee--they wanted some idiot in headphones to stumble into their path, so that they could ring that bell and take them to the ground.

It was an amazing thing to watch. Over there, cyclists are at the top of the food chain. Whereas in America, we get the leftovers. We pay lip service to the idea that pedestrians are the primary concern; they ostensibly always have the right of way. But having the right of way won't give you your legs back. So in reality cars rule the roads. Pedestrians come in a distant second. And cyclists are at the bottom of the heap. Maybe those Germans are onto something. Maybe you should get out your old football shoulder pads, add some knee and elbow pads, and power through the bike lanes like gladiators. If some idiot with headphones or a 20' dog leash stumbles within your territory, you can teach him a lesson that he won't soon forget.

I agree with you, but there's no such thing as a car lane...and that's kind of the big difference here.

Still, though, I don't have a problem with joggers. I don't really think they should be in the bike lane, but if they are I just deal. People should be able to move about however they like.

Drivers...not so much.

^^Don't get me started on dog leashes..........

I see this all the time in NYC. It doesn't bother me as long as they are alert and move aside for bikes. Most do, but some are jerks (like in all groups!). Honestly, cyclists riding the wrong way in the bike lane bother me a lot more, as they pose more risk to me.

Around here, I don't mind them too much (assuming traffic isn't too heavy). If they move to one side, there's usually room enough for both of us. I much prefer them head on to those going the wrong way and don't see me. Also much prefer them to the fools who double park in the bike lane (even if they say they're in the car "waiting" with the engine idling so they're not parking and can move if someone needs to get their car out - those fools need be smacked repeatedly). Also worse are the groups that take up the entire MUP. This weekend, I was pulling a trailer with a screaming baby inside and just wanted to get the last half mile home so I could get her out and see what she wanted when this group of old ladies decided to block up the whole MUP. Repeated bell ringings and "excuse me"s were ignored before a couple of them finally moved over while giving me dirty looks - and this was on the part of the path labeled "Bikes Only". A few yards away was the "Pedestrian Only" path, but apparently they didn't want to use that one. Jerks - there are some wherever you go.

Me too.

Agreed, but it's the sentiment that I'm getting at, and even though they're wrong, drivers would argue that streets are for cars, not bikes.

To me there are a couple of things at play here.

First and foremost is my overwhelming discomfort with the partitioning of our society. "This is mine, that's yours, you stay over there and I'll stay over here". I know we need rules but some things ought to resolve themselves, amicably.
Second, bike lanes are a relatively new thing in North America. Maybe these runners/joggers had been running on the shoulder for years, and now there's a bike lane on ground that used to be theirs, is that entirely fair?
Third, I'm just not so sure that I agree that bike lanes are the path to making North America a cycling utopia. I tend to think that their existence marginalizes my right to use the non-bikelane portion of the road, and have been told just that by many motorists. I'm pretty sure that we can agree as cyclists that we don't want to be restricted to using only the bike lanes. Correct me if I'm wrong the NYCs finest have already tried to achieve this.

Bikes in traffic lanes are legal.
Pedestrians in bike lanes are illegal.

I probably do a hundred illegal things a day, though. I try not to consider the legality when deciding if something is "right or wrong."

If the joggers are in the bike lane it may be illegal, especially if they're running the wrong way. For example, where I live it's a violation of state law 349.232, and it's a lot safer to force them on the sidewalk than it is for me enter the automotive lane of traffic. Rather than taking the time to explain that to a jogger heading my way, I just wait until they are about 20 feet out and I give them a blast from the 'ol Air Zound. You'd be amazed who quickly they realize the extent of their trespass and jump back on to the sidewalk after they hear that. It works on drunks walking the wrong way in the bike lane too.

Not a problem for me since my city put in separate a jogging lane & a dog walking lane. The problem now is that the dog walking lane is filling up with people in those silly bouncy shoes, and dogs love to chase them. The bouncy shoe lane won't be done for another few years.

Most street joggers aren't a problem for me even tho they don't belong there. It is the joggers with dogs or the ones with double-wide strollers that are a problem. Those seem to be as problematic as salmon bikers.

Take away the parking spaces, and there will be more room for the non motorized population..

or as done in other countries, parking is on the traffic side,
bike lane is on the sidewalk side of the parked cars..

1. No excuse... Period. Designated bicycle lanes, are for bicycle transit use ONLY, (does not include automobiles and delivery vehicles that park for a short period of time for delivery in the absence of appropriate adjacent parking to a business). Just because some people are starting to take certain liberties based on their own preference or opinion, does not make the practice safe or legal.

2. If you see a cyclist transiting against the normal flow of traffic, such occurances should be reported as would be the case with any other traffice violation or action that could pose a safety risk to himself, other cyclists, or the traffic adjacent to that lane. Remember, cyclists are REQUIRED to transit in a manner consistent with the flow of normal traffic, (in other words, are supposed to be part of the normal flow of traffic), and not an entity apart. Some states are seriously starting to consider requiring that any ciclyst transiting on public roads to be required to have a current form of identification. If you get stopped by a law enforcement officer in those states, because you are commiting an infraction, you don't get talked to, and later let go home. You are given a citation, and if warranted, you will be arrested and taken into custody.

Sharing, it's a good concept to teach to your children. ......... that, and I don't want to live in a society where we expect our law enforcement officers to issue tickets to someone out for a bit of exercise.

Beyond that, y'all are just getting angry over something that really isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. If someone is jogging, slide around them... it's pretty easy.

I had a discussion on this topic with the cop-next-door. His response was something to the effect:
"You can walk/run where ever you want *legally*, but when there is an incident, the officer writing up the report will note in the report if any of the parties was doing something stupid that caused the incident."

We came upon this runner.
Going to wrong way in the center of two highway lanes.
(Runners High I guess)

I'm going to have to agree with the majority that if there are separate bike lanes and sidewalks then each group should respect their areas.

There's a great example of what happens when you don't in the city of Thessaloniki here in Greece where the mayor built a bike lane all along the seafront which already had a relatively large sidewalk. The bike lane was lowered a inch below the sidewalk area and paved with asphalt for better traction, and is clearly distinguishable as a bike path, taking up only one fifth of the total sidewalk. Within a week of finishing of the project, the bike path was totally taken over first by joggers/runners and then by pedestrians, mostly women with strollers stating that the surface was smoother than the sidewalk tiles. It's reached a point where there's even a campaign to ban cyclist from the sidewalk and bike path because of recent accidents involving strollers and have them cycle on a narrow busy street which always has bumper-to-bumper traffic!

I can understand when there's no sidewalk or it's condition is really bad and pedestrians (strollers, joggers and runners) have to use a bike lane, but there's no excuse hogging one up when there's a sidewalk available.

Running on concrete sucks, I can completely understand why these people are on the bike lanes. If they're doing things right they should see bikers coming toward them and have the common sense to get the f out of the way. Back when I did a lot of running that's what I did, same when I'm on a trail and you come up to a bunch of MTB'ers. This should be obvious from a safety perspective, but I guess that gets blown into the wind for most people until the moment they get hurt.

Ha ha! Except that my bike lanes are like 4 feet wide