A Pleasant Surprise
01-05-05 | 09:14 PM
#26
Dominatrikes
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,920
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From: Still in Santa Barbara
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
I thought the original rider was in a regular straight-ahead lane and people were wanting to squeeze by to turn right, as frequently happens?
If it's a right turn only lane it'd be silly to be in that lane and go straight. But if you are just minding your own business in a straight ahead lane and cars are wanting to sqeeze by to turn right, then you can either be polite and move over for them or not. It's not any different than when you are in a car in the same situation. Sometimes you can move your car a bit to let them by, too, if you feel generous.
Those dual purpose lanes are a bit trickier. It's not like a bike has enough width to effectively block the way. Some idiots will do anything to not be behind you in those kinds of lanes, regardless of any message you are trying to send by your lane position. Most people get it, though.
If it's a right turn only lane it'd be silly to be in that lane and go straight. But if you are just minding your own business in a straight ahead lane and cars are wanting to sqeeze by to turn right, then you can either be polite and move over for them or not. It's not any different than when you are in a car in the same situation. Sometimes you can move your car a bit to let them by, too, if you feel generous.
Those dual purpose lanes are a bit trickier. It's not like a bike has enough width to effectively block the way. Some idiots will do anything to not be behind you in those kinds of lanes, regardless of any message you are trying to send by your lane position. Most people get it, though.
01-05-05 | 09:21 PM
#27
Vehicular Cyclist
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
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Originally Posted by Roody
You seem to be contradicting yourself. You are always saying "take the lane." Now you are saying, "Position yourself in the left part of the lane so that cars behind you can conveniently use most of YOUR lane to turn right." I do not feel comfortable letting a car come within inches of me--passing on my RIGHT when another car may be inches from me on my LEFT--just so he can make a quick right turn and not miss the beginning of his favorite TV show. I do not want to be the middle of a Roody Sandwich!
By always in "You are always saying 'take the lane'" surely you do not literally mean "always" - I assume you are referring to how often I advocate taking the lane in my posts. To be clear, I do advocate "taking the lane" whenever the lane is too narrow to safely share with a car for current conditions, which is much more often than most cyclists seem to realize. For example, even a relatively wide lane is too narrow to safely share when the cyclist is traveling downhill at 35mph, even if the speed limit is 50. Note that two of the conditions that determine whether a lane is "too narrow" in a given situation are the speeds of the cyclist and the car in question.
The situation we are discussing is being stopped at an intersection where the right-most lane allows for travel to destinations straight ahead or to the right. While it is possible for such a lane to be too narrow to safely share with cars side-by-side, I find that to be rarely the case. Many such lanes are wide enough for even a car to stop far enough to the left for other cars to safely squeeze by to turn right. This is especially true considering the speeds involved. The vehicle to the left is stopped. The other vehicle is typically crawling along, stopping at the intersection, the motorist checking that it's clear, and then proceeding. Certainly a lane wide enough for two cars to share is wide enough for a cyclist to stop far enough left for cars to squeeze by on his right to turn right. As such a lane gets progressively narrower, sharing by two cars becomes impossible, but sharing by car and bike still is safe. But if the lane is so narrow that stopping within a foot of the left edge of the lane requires cars to squeeze by the cyclist with less than a couple of feet to spare (normally 3 feet is minimal, but at these slow speeds I feel 2 is enough), then, yes, in such a lane I would stop near the left tire track and make the motorists wait.
The above assumes the cyclist is stopped at a red light and the right-turning motorists must also stop at the intersection before proceeding.
Serge
01-05-05 | 09:26 PM
#28
Vehicular Cyclist
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Those dual purpose lanes are a bit trickier. It's not like a bike has enough width to effectively block the way. Some idiots will do anything to not be behind you in those kinds of lanes, regardless of any message you are trying to send by your lane position. Most people get it, though.
"Motorists are like dogs. Act like the Alpha, and they'll treat you like the Alpha".
01-05-05 | 09:41 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Serge *******
Moi? Contradict myself? C'est impossible!
By always in "You are always saying 'take the lane'" surely you do not literally mean "always" - I assume you are referring to how often I advocate taking the lane in my posts. To be clear, I do advocate "taking the lane" whenever the lane is too narrow to safely share with a car for current ... stopped at a red light and the right-turning motorists must also stop at the intersection before proceeding.
Serge
By always in "You are always saying 'take the lane'" surely you do not literally mean "always" - I assume you are referring to how often I advocate taking the lane in my posts. To be clear, I do advocate "taking the lane" whenever the lane is too narrow to safely share with a car for current ... stopped at a red light and the right-turning motorists must also stop at the intersection before proceeding.
Serge
always I do mean always.)
I ride most often on inner city streets, where there is little room to spare in the intersections. Like shbikes, most times I'd rather be in the middle of the lane and let motorists wait. Perhaps it affords them an opportunity to meditate, or pick their noses or something.
01-06-05 | 07:09 AM
#30
'Bent Brian
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 560
Likes: 0
From: Wellington Ohio
Bikes: Trek 1000, Rans Tailwind
Being a recumbent rider like sbhikes I can attest to the fact that motorists tend to put up less of a fuss when you claim a lane. I've ridden my road bike and my recumbent in city traffic over the same streets. I have less difficulty in changing lanes, claiming a lane position and then maintaining it on the 'bent as opposed to the DF. Maybe it is the uniqueness of the bike. Drivers seem to be a bit more tolerant.
'bent Brian
'bent Brian
01-06-05 | 09:08 AM
#31
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
From: No Va
I position myself in the middle of the right lane (straight or right turn) in order to trip the signal. And yes, I will gladly move left if a car approaches from behind wanting to make a right turn - but I'm initially in the middle of the lane to trip the light.
01-06-05 | 01:56 PM
#32
Arizona Dessert
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,029
Likes: 2,170
From: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
I often let right turning cars go to my right and also sometimes get appreciative waves.
In a unrelated situation, yesterday morning I was in the middle of the go straight lane and first in line and a car pulled up to the right of me in the right turn lane. I did think it was odd they were not turning right as there were no cars coming on the x-street. Oh well I thought, an extra cautious driver. But then on green I proceeded and found my self being squeezed to the left by this same car going straight from the right turn lane, we were head to head and I 'signaled' at them and they kept moving leftward into the middle of the intersection, so I had no choice but to brake and pull in behind them. I was not a pleasant experience.
Al
In a unrelated situation, yesterday morning I was in the middle of the go straight lane and first in line and a car pulled up to the right of me in the right turn lane. I did think it was odd they were not turning right as there were no cars coming on the x-street. Oh well I thought, an extra cautious driver. But then on green I proceeded and found my self being squeezed to the left by this same car going straight from the right turn lane, we were head to head and I 'signaled' at them and they kept moving leftward into the middle of the intersection, so I had no choice but to brake and pull in behind them. I was not a pleasant experience.
Al
01-06-05 | 04:13 PM
#33
Yes--that happens all the time because the driver you are being courteous to does not want to get "stuck" behind a bike for even 5 seconds. It would have been so easy for you to be squeezed left into the next lane. That's why I stay in the middle of the lane and I don't move left unless I feel absolutely safe in the situation. Thank God you were OK.
01-06-05 | 08:11 PM
#34
Vehicular Cyclist
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Likes: 0
That happens all the time? I've never had it happen to me, and I routinely stop far enough left in wide-enough straight-or-right lanes to let right-turners pass me on my right, and stop in the thru lane to let right-turners use the right-turn-only lane.
However, if I was stopped in the thru lane and a motorist stopped to my right in the right-turn-only lane, but suspiciously like he was intending on going straight, I would wait to see what he did when the light turned green before I proceeded. If he hesitated I would move ahead and merge right - in front of him ("Motorists are like dogs - if you act like the Alpha they'll treat you like the Alpha"). If he moved immediately I would let him go with a friendly wave and smile.
Serge
However, if I was stopped in the thru lane and a motorist stopped to my right in the right-turn-only lane, but suspiciously like he was intending on going straight, I would wait to see what he did when the light turned green before I proceeded. If he hesitated I would move ahead and merge right - in front of him ("Motorists are like dogs - if you act like the Alpha they'll treat you like the Alpha"). If he moved immediately I would let him go with a friendly wave and smile.
Serge
01-06-05 | 08:25 PM
#35
Dominatrikes
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,920
Likes: 0
From: Still in Santa Barbara
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Really, Brian? You find they are more courteous to you on your recumbent?
I find being on the recumbent generates extremes on both ends. Either they think I'm a disabled person and clear a path around me a mile wide, or they get so mad at me they show it with really obnoxious behavior like squealing tires, swerving around or slamming on the gas. But that's only those people who react. Mostly I don't have problems at all.
I've never had anybody try to pass me on the right and squeeze me like described above. Usually our lanes are pretty narrow here, and to the right is the bike lane, so any cars who want to turn right have to use the bike lane to do it. Most times all you have to do is stay in the middle of the bike lane to prevent cars from turning right.
Some intersections are wide enough where they'll try to go around you on the left and turn right, and in those cases I move far enough to the left so they can't pass me on either side. Then I can make a conspicuous act of courtesy and move over if I feel generous.
I find being on the recumbent generates extremes on both ends. Either they think I'm a disabled person and clear a path around me a mile wide, or they get so mad at me they show it with really obnoxious behavior like squealing tires, swerving around or slamming on the gas. But that's only those people who react. Mostly I don't have problems at all.
I've never had anybody try to pass me on the right and squeeze me like described above. Usually our lanes are pretty narrow here, and to the right is the bike lane, so any cars who want to turn right have to use the bike lane to do it. Most times all you have to do is stay in the middle of the bike lane to prevent cars from turning right.
Some intersections are wide enough where they'll try to go around you on the left and turn right, and in those cases I move far enough to the left so they can't pass me on either side. Then I can make a conspicuous act of courtesy and move over if I feel generous.
01-06-05 | 08:30 PM
#36
Campy or bust :p
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,139
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From: Knoxville, TN
Bikes: Surly Karate Monkey commuter build
Originally Posted by Serge *******
That makes more sense, and describes the type of cycling I did before I learned vehicular cycling (VC) after reading and studying the book, Effective Cycling. What I didn't fully understand is how I was still thinking and acting like a second class user of the road, and the consequences of doing that.
Going straight from the far left of the right turn lane is better than going straight from the right or center of it, but it's still going STRAIGHT from a RIGHT TURN ONLY lane. The driving principle behind this type of riding is: use the part of the roadway not being used by motorists.
A vehicular cyclist would stop in the straight lane, at the stop stripe if he is first, behind the last car if he is not. If that lane happens to be wide enough to safely share with cars side-by-side, then he may move up a few cars, but never go ahead of the first car and/or past the stop stripe.
By stopping "out of the way" you're less visible to motorists and they pay less attention to you than if you're stopped in a normal travel lane in line with other vehicles going in the same direction as you. By choosing an "out of the way" position that does not make things safer for you, especially if something out of the ordinary suddenly happens for some unpredictable reason.
There is also the side benefit of VC in avoiding puncture causing road rubble. Rubble tends to collect in little piles between the normal travel lines followed by motorists, which is where you're riding if you're following the "out of the way" principle, like riding across the intersection starting at the far right of the right turn only lane.
I think you meant two lanes turn RIGHT, one straight, and one LEFT. Anyway, that's what I'm assuming.
Again, you're in a right-turn lane (albeit the leftmost right-turn lane), yet you're going straight. If you're not turning right, you should not be in the right turn only lane. That's why they call it the right-turn ONLY lane.
And I'm sure the cars don't mind what you're doing at all -- though the motorists may. It's not just semantics. Seriously, one of the differences between riding as a vehicular cyclist vs. the way most other experienced traffic cyclists ride is how you think of yourself and others on the road. VCists consider themselves as equal users of the road with users of motorized vehicles (who are motorists). The key difference is that one can communicate with a motorist, while communication with a car is not possible. Again, it's not just semantics, it's how you think about yourself and others. In particular, VCists tend to interact with motorists much more than non-VC cyclists do.
Serge
Going straight from the far left of the right turn lane is better than going straight from the right or center of it, but it's still going STRAIGHT from a RIGHT TURN ONLY lane. The driving principle behind this type of riding is: use the part of the roadway not being used by motorists.
A vehicular cyclist would stop in the straight lane, at the stop stripe if he is first, behind the last car if he is not. If that lane happens to be wide enough to safely share with cars side-by-side, then he may move up a few cars, but never go ahead of the first car and/or past the stop stripe.
By stopping "out of the way" you're less visible to motorists and they pay less attention to you than if you're stopped in a normal travel lane in line with other vehicles going in the same direction as you. By choosing an "out of the way" position that does not make things safer for you, especially if something out of the ordinary suddenly happens for some unpredictable reason.
There is also the side benefit of VC in avoiding puncture causing road rubble. Rubble tends to collect in little piles between the normal travel lines followed by motorists, which is where you're riding if you're following the "out of the way" principle, like riding across the intersection starting at the far right of the right turn only lane.
I think you meant two lanes turn RIGHT, one straight, and one LEFT. Anyway, that's what I'm assuming.
Again, you're in a right-turn lane (albeit the leftmost right-turn lane), yet you're going straight. If you're not turning right, you should not be in the right turn only lane. That's why they call it the right-turn ONLY lane.
And I'm sure the cars don't mind what you're doing at all -- though the motorists may. It's not just semantics. Seriously, one of the differences between riding as a vehicular cyclist vs. the way most other experienced traffic cyclists ride is how you think of yourself and others on the road. VCists consider themselves as equal users of the road with users of motorized vehicles (who are motorists). The key difference is that one can communicate with a motorist, while communication with a car is not possible. Again, it's not just semantics, it's how you think about yourself and others. In particular, VCists tend to interact with motorists much more than non-VC cyclists do.
Serge
01-07-05 | 08:38 AM
#37
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,947
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From: Absecon, NJ
Bikes: Puch Luzern, Puch Mistral SLE, Bianchi Pista, Motobecane Grand Touring, Austro-Daimler Ultima, Legnano, Raleigh MountainTour, Cannondale SM600
Originally Posted by cryogenic
No, I'm not joking... we have TWO LEFT turn lanes... ONE straight lane and ONE right turn lane... I live in Knoxville, TN where apparently high-grade marijuana was passed out during city planning meetings. At this intersection, I turn left from the rightmost left turn lane. Knoxville is one of those cities you'd have to see to believe and being a VC here would turn you into a DC (dead cyclist)
01-07-05 | 08:39 AM
#38
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,947
Likes: 1
From: Absecon, NJ
Bikes: Puch Luzern, Puch Mistral SLE, Bianchi Pista, Motobecane Grand Touring, Austro-Daimler Ultima, Legnano, Raleigh MountainTour, Cannondale SM600
Originally Posted by Serge *******
That happens all the time? I've never had it happen to me, and I routinely stop far enough left in wide-enough straight-or-right lanes to let right-turners pass me on my right, and stop in the thru lane to let right-turners use the right-turn-only lane.
Last edited by nick burns; 01-07-05 at 08:54 AM.
01-07-05 | 09:05 AM
#39
Arizona Dessert
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,029
Likes: 2,170
From: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Originally Posted by Serge *******
That happens all the time? I've never had it happen to me, and I routinely stop far enough left in wide-enough straight-or-right lanes to let right-turners pass me on my right, and stop in the thru lane to let right-turners use the right-turn-only lane.
However, if I was stopped in the thru lane and a motorist stopped to my right in the right-turn-only lane, but suspiciously like he was intending on going straight, I would wait to see what he did when the light turned green before I proceeded. If he hesitated I would move ahead and merge right - in front of him ("Motorists are like dogs - if you act like the Alpha they'll treat you like the Alpha"). If he moved immediately I would let him go with a friendly wave and smile.
Serge
However, if I was stopped in the thru lane and a motorist stopped to my right in the right-turn-only lane, but suspiciously like he was intending on going straight, I would wait to see what he did when the light turned green before I proceeded. If he hesitated I would move ahead and merge right - in front of him ("Motorists are like dogs - if you act like the Alpha they'll treat you like the Alpha"). If he moved immediately I would let him go with a friendly wave and smile.
Serge
Al
Al
01-08-05 | 06:55 PM
#40
Vehicular Cyclist
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by cryogenic
No, I'm not joking... we have TWO LEFT turn lanes... ONE straight lane and ONE right turn lane... I live in Knoxville, TN where apparently high-grade marijuana was passed out during city planning meetings. At this intersection, I turn left from the rightmost left turn lane. Knoxville is one of those cities you'd have to see to believe and being a VC here would turn you into a DC (dead cyclist)
First you said there are two lanes that turn left, and one that goes right, yet you then refer to the "leftmost right-turn lane", implying there are two right-turn lanes. That didn't make sense. I assumed your error was in saying there are 2 left and 1 right, when your error was in saying "leftmost right-turn lane" rather than "rightmost left-turn lane". Anyway, I think I understand now.
We have double left-turn lanes too, and I usually use the rightmost one. But in one place where I know that at certain times of the day after the turn the right lane becomes congested with right-turning motorists, I use the leftmost left-turn lane and, after completing the turn, I continue in the left lane until I pass all the congested right-turners (despite there being a bike lane to the right of the right lane the use of which inevitably causes dangerous crossing of paths between the thru cyclists and the right-turning motorists).
Serge
