The "losers" applies to all of us, myself included. It was tongue-in-cheek but if you took offense at that, my apologies. There has been far more offensive stuff posted here that I would like to think that a person might get upset about.

As for what you posted, I really don't care. It's a stupid discussion to be having here. While we're at it maybe we can talk about the myriad ways that our society underprepares young people from low-income and/or minority backgrounds, the systematic biases against the same, the ongoing cycle of violence, the glorification of violence and brutality and material success... or maybe we can just talk about bicycles and the riding thereof.

from the information that I have read, the incidents of deaths or pernament injury are very rare.I took one day training seminar in its use (which doesn't make me an expert) and have taught classes in the use of o.c.pepper spray. If you are being assaulted on the street, are you going to worry too much about injury to the attacker, or protecting yourself from injury? O.C pepper is better than shooting someone, isn't it?

Why don't you just douse the dog with gasoline and throw a match on it? At least it wouldn't suffer as long.

Yes, but it becomes a casual thing to fire off a pepper round or hit the canister for a spray. It's should be used instead of firing a live round, not as a routine crowd control measure which is what has happened.

Ask the girl from Northeastern doing nothing wrong who got hit with a pepper round by an officer looking to disperse a crowd after the Red Sox won the ALCS this year. Oh that's right, you can't. It hit her in the eye and she died.

Such cases may be rare but they're not unheard of. The way these weapons are marketed and used is as if they were water balloons.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, somebody should be given credit for being humble enough to know that ALL they really require is pepper spray for self defense. With all these two-bit Tony Montanas and cowboy and gangstah wannabes running around. I used to carry around a handgun, but, based on my actual needs, I realized there would be more advantages to pepper spray. If that's too violent, well, tough %*@#, nobody should be attacking me in the first place!

You're sadly naive if you think "non-lethal" weapons aren't used routinely. Perhaps casual was the wrong word, but routine is certainly the right one. I've been involved in non-violent demonstrations when the police have used these weapons on the crowd for the sole fact that they felt it was time for things to move along. Routine, not self-defense.

I ride to save fuel, and besides the rest of the peleton might get their synthetic socks singed.
I just want to teach the dog a lesson, I'll leave the killing to the humane society.

Boston,so would you rather the police used shotguns? Oh, never mindbecause on this forum we are talking about bicycles,and on this thread we are talking about self defense from dogs and motorist. Now , Boston if you have done any urban bike riding at all, and if you are a honest person at all, you will admit to have be harrassed, threatened, assaulted or, and attacked. Just read some of the threads from veteran urban bike riders. And if you still don't see the need and right to defend your self, then you havn't been riding a bike very long, are not being honest, or are masochistic. I myself will go out of my way to avoid confrontations. But if I get cornered, out come the pepper spray, and if it causes long term or permanment injury, just remember who began the confrontation. I plan on going home at night to see my kids.

Also, a down tube bike tire pump could be grabbed and used as a handy weapon if need arose. Just a suggestion.

That's me, not urban. I've had motorists try to pull a gun on me in the past, I live across the street from the projects. My zip code is 02130. Look it up sometime. https://www.zweknu.org/pics/gal.rhtml?alb=boston

I still think all this talk about pepper spray and the like is pretty ridiculous. Sorry.

Well, no I wouldn't suggest you spray somone who is pointing a gun at you. But if you do ln fact live in an urban area, and you do ride in an urban area and you don't carry somthing or believe in protecting yourself, I would assume that you're nuts, or a liar. Or both.

"all this talk about pepper spray is pretty ridiculous" then why are you on this thread?

I think that talk like this is part of the techno-libertarian craze that is sweeping the blog-i-verse. These neo-libertarians make old-school NRA members look like woodstock throwbacks.

Hey now, I'm not going to criticize the paranoid among you that carry pepper spray or guns while riding in the city-- but it really is pushing it to suggest those of us that choose to use common sense and alertness to avoid/get out of dangerous situations are crazy.

I happen to live in one of the most violent cities in America (but an otherwise great place).

Definitely. I've never been bikejacked but a friend of mine was on my former route. They pushed a "ghost bike" into his path, he crashed and they swarmed and took his stuff. Some of the "nice" kids got their parents who "helped" him but the lights were never recovered. Yep, these were all "little" kids, like 6th grade/ junior high. Not life-threatening, just a bunch of little jackals.

Dunno, maybe I've got it coming to me someday. My commute takes me past two developments (which have a long running beef and makes it occassionally interesting in the neighborhood).

I guess I just feel like if the situation is one that I can't avoid and can't escape from, me going all Clint Eastwood isn't probably going to make things any better.

There's a lot of paranoia in this country about the "inner city", but in reality it just ain't that dangerous.

That's my experience, having ridden through West Philadelphia a hundred or so times. But I know that there are worse situations than West Philly in daylight.

Forget about inner city fears. I have been assaulted at least twice, and both times in a "good" neighborhood by white people. The issue is road rage, and disprespect for bicylcist rights, and commuting in the city, and safety. I carry pepper spray.
I am almost 49 years old, and have been riding bikes since I was a child. High school, college and up into my 40's. I have been attacked since my college years. However I do ride in the city, and do commute at night in the city. I have learned to look ahead, always try to avoid trouble. And will go out of my way to avoid conflict. I do not respond to verbal assaults, road rage and honking horns. However, if I do get backed into a corner, I will defend my self with what ever is available. And I don't believe that I am being paranoid, a Dirty Harry wannabe, no a neo-libertine. But if someone hits me, I hit back (after I pepper spary him) If I am forced into a fight, I will fight dirty.

I live in the inner city, own a house in the inner city, my children attend school in the inner city. I like the inner city, and don't believe it to be that dangerous, bostontrevor. THis thread is not about the inner city. It is about pepper spray, bicylist being attacked by motorist and dogs. It dosn't matter what part of town it is in. Both of the times that I was attacked were in "good neighborhoods.

I have always carried spray on my bike. I have never used it and I don't even know if it works. a few observations:

1) Commuting from Brooklyn to manhattan every day for the past 4 years, I can tell you that it's pea-brained motorists who are aggressive/threatening NOT punks, project-dwellers or any pedestrian (I pass hundreds every day);

2) Riding in rush hour on Fridays there's about a 70% chance someone will invite me to fight them from the window of their car. I always ignore them, but I get the pepper spray in my hand pretty quick and it makes me feel better if nothing else;

3) I was intentionally driven off the road by an SUV in Scottsdale, AZ where I grew up. Same thing happened on a mountain road outside Boulder, CO. Both cars stopped up ahead on the road to vent their anger at me for being on the road at all. These are two of the wealthiest communities in this country. Similar things have happened to me all over the country;

4) By far, the most aggressive, least restrained dogs I have ever encountered were in Washington and Oregon along the Pacific coast when I did a Pac Coast bike trip using the adventure cycling maps. Great route, unbelievable dog owners;

Just my $.02 --

Mr.Super Socks. A very good $.02. Thank you for concurring with what I was trying to say. Both of the times that I was attacked, were not in the "ghetto, and were not by project dwellers, but in fact I was attcked both times by white people ( I'm white ) so it has nothing to do with "urban paranoia' as BostonTravl tried to imply.
SuperSocks, Believe me, pepper spray does work 99% of the time, against dogs (both four legged and two legged variety) if used correctly. I have been sprayed in the face as part of my training. That was the last time I will volunteer for that, believe me.

I've decided to stick with old reliable Guard Alaska bear spray # 9. Its worked on a black bear while camping in the Adirondacks, Trying to steal my food bag. If it works on a bear. It should have no problems handling a pack of pissed off Coy dogs.

That's what I'm talkin' about....
Dogs are smart enough to learn chasing bikes = pain

I would hate to use this on a family pet, If I had to? yes I would. I also know that dogs that chases down cyclist have owners that should be pepper sprayed! Like I said before. I use Pepper spray for self defense against mostly Coy dogs (A wild dog).

Coy dogs Have had the instinct to chase for many years. I don't want them to lose there freedom. I just don't want them trying to chase me.

Let them be free.

The Vexor is 15 million SHU before they mix it. They even say on their site that the SHU is meaningless. Fox does pretty good but if your using stream it takes awhile for it to do any good on someone wearing glasses. I use to sell nothing but Fox although i've tried many, if not all brands. I had a few friends wear safety glasses and hold their breath and close their eyes to try to find a stream that would work as i got tired of the blowbackfrom oc cone and foggers. The Fox would burn their face and take about 45 seconds to shut their eyes. I also tried DPS. Most of you probably never heard of it, but it's got almost twice as much pepper in it as Fox and the the Carrier is Perchlorethyene-it opens up the pores and breaks down the oils of the skin. It had about the same results although testers did say it was a little hotter and took alot longer to decontaminate them. I also tried V4"s Shotgun Stream by ETGI. It starts out as a stream and at about 6ft starts to spread apart into a shotgun splatter, At about 15-20ft it covers an area about 2ft across. Every tester said immediately they couldnt breathe and couldnt open their eyes and asked if they could have rushed me they said their was no way. The weird thing was they all also said it was much more intense than even the Vexor which i've tried in the past and this company claims only 1 million SHU. I also testify to this as i try it on my arms and count the seconds it takes to work and intensity and the V4 is absolute instant burning with the Fox and DPS coming in a tie for 2nd taking about 15 seconds. Another awsome thing is, this stuff is a real confidence builder, not only because it works but because of almost no blowback unless there's some serious wind and because every bottle i have tried has sprayed head on of at least 23ft and just under 35ft if arching the bottle.

I think it may be illegal to use this stuff on humans. I'm pretty sure bear spray is. Probably depends on state. However, I thought I read that bear spray could actually cause tissue damage on humans.