Originally Posted by ratdog

If you are a guy, ugly, and dressed pretty badly I think you're relatively safe,...but the OP is a fairly short build young woman who has other worries a male usually does not have to worry about.

Originally Posted by Doohickie

Take the Lane

Use a Mirror

Use a BRIGHT tail light.

Originally Posted by Slaninar

In my country, the law says "bicycle uses 1 meter of road to the right", so it is practically an offense to take the lane. And it is not always safe.

Through experience, I've come to decide with confidence when it is wise to take the lane and when it is not. In spite of that, a few days ago, I was run off the road buy a truck hauling a trailer. I was taking the lane, he sounded his horn and I saw there was NO way he was going to stop (in time at least). I moved all the way to the right, he passed me and swerved to the right. I had to run off the road, to avoid gettin hit by the trailer.

So vehicle it is, but a lot different one and law is nice, but physics beats it in the street.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

If there isn't a bike lane or striped off area of shoulder on a road then you are taking the lane just by being in it. How I wonder is moving further into the traffic stream going to make a person feel SAFER when the cars that pass them will now be displaying all manner of hostility to express their outrage at the road being blocked unecessarily?

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

Oh dear God! Can we lock this thread or at least move it to A&S. Honestly... the fear mongering. It does the vehicular cycling cause no good. I think I saw ONE rational post in this whole thread. Yikes. That is a lot of ignorance in a small amount of posters. 24" stick with a diamond point on the end of it? I hope when the redneck whose 350 you've scratched finishes beating you, you have the good sense not to report him to the authorities. You know... in the nearly four years I have been here... if all that time had been spent accentuating the positive things we can do as commuters/vehicular cyclists instead of all the bad things drivers do... when a newbie comes in asking for advice we wouldn't all (nearly all) be offering USELESS advice that they could never legally use (am I redundant here) anyway.

I've been cycling for 40 years and the widest thing I've seen on the back of a bike is a milk crate. Do ANY of you have Willow Branches with diamond points (or red flags for that matter) on them? No, you don't, because it simply isn't necessary. If its that bad where you live you don't ride. Period. End of story. If there isn't a bike lane or striped off area of shoulder on a road then you are taking the lane just by being in it. How I wonder is moving further into the traffic stream going to make a person feel SAFER when the cars that pass them will now be displaying all manner of hostility to express their outrage at the road being blocked unecessarily? How? Do you people read what you write. Really read it. Parse it for coherence and credulity?

Sounds like the O.P. isn't the only one in a state of fear. Why ride? Really. It can't be healthy. If I were the o.p. I would ignore every post in this thread, including mine. Go to a local bike store. Chat up the staff. Find one that commutes in the same general area. Ride with him or her a few times. If after a few rides and you are both still alive and that doesn't convince you that riding IN the street isn't the instant invitation to the other side that you want to think it is. Don't ride anymore. Plenty of people don't. I know I sound like a hard*** but that comes from frustration. I meet people with the EXACT same question all the time. When you live in Portland a lot of people want to ride because they see so many other people doing it. Most of them (amazingly) don't actually know anyone personally who rides so when they meet me, I get their questions. I've taken a couple out and seen how they ride in the gutter. I don't ride in the gutter, and I don't hog the road either. What many of you are calling taking the lane is flagrant road hogging and it is actually illegal.

H

Originally Posted by neil

When forced to ride in traffic due to lack of alternative infrastructure, moving further in the lane is still useful.
1 - Distance from parked cars. If there are parked cars on your route riding too close to the right is hazardous. You should be an absolute minimum of 4 ft out lest a door open..

Originally Posted by Doohickie

Take the Lane

Use a Mirror

Use a BRIGHT tail light.

Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy

I'm just replying to your last statement, that being in your opinion that taking the lane is nothing more then being a road hog. I have to disagree with you on that. I have tried the riding in the gutter/hugging the curb and received far more harassment doing so as opposed to taking the lane.
.

Originally Posted by neil

When forced to ride in traffic due to lack of alternative infrastructure, moving further in the lane is still useful.
1 - Distance from parked cars. If there are parked cars on your route riding too close to the right is hazardous. You should be an absolute minimum of 4 ft out lest a door open.
2 - Maneuvering room. If an emergency situation arises, you want to be able to safely move in either direction, creating more opportunities to deal with the emergency safely.
3 - Implied passing distance. If there is just enough room for a car to squeeze by in the same lane, they'll do it. Being further into the lane makes it clear that a safe pass requires a lane change, and driver behaviour changes accordingly.

In addition to being safe, this behaviour is legal in 'As far right as practicable' jurisdictions, which is the norm in North America. Practicable means safe.

Nothing in my experience suggests that angry drivers will be less angry when riders are taking extra risks to accommodate motor traffic's whims. However, the vast majority of drivers who are not angry, but are also not up to speed on how to safely share the road, can be encouraged to make the right choices through appropriate lane positioning.

The biggest problems I have with drivers are a result of poor or poorly explained "bike" infrastructure. Every driver who's yelled at me has done so in one of the following situations:
a) I'm riding on a road with traffic when there is a counter-flow lane available (for cyclists going the other way.)
b) I'm riding on a road with traffic when there is a door zone lane less than 4 feet out from parked cars (these are hazardous and should never be used.)
c) I'm riding on a signposted or sharrow bike route with parked cars and only one lane in each direction.

Roads with multiple lanes have never been a problem...motorists just pass merrily by.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

I know of no city in which a cyclist could steadily ride 4ft from the parked traffic. And 4' from the curb would put you exactly in the door zone. About the best that can be taught, as I was taught to do it in NYC (which is probably one of the best examples of this kind of riding) ride 2' from parked cars while being alert to the signs of a potential dooring. A car that just parked, which you should have seen take place, is a prime dooring possibility. Any vehicle in which you can see an occupant... ditto. Even in city traffic a bicycle moves MUCH slower than surrounding traffic and it is simply a wet dream of a minority of vehicular cyclists to believe that their "right to the road" includes being able to behave like other road traffic. It doesn't. In the vehicle code are special stipulations for the operation of bicycles that, when observed, put the bicycle much closer to the gutter than perhaps would be optimal.

I don't ride in NYC anymore but there are still parked cars in town and for sure I ride in what is being called the "door zone". If a door is actually open and I go around the vehicle, open door and operator both which means going well out into the lane and maybe on the line to the next lane, I'm going to be ok because following traffic aren't morons, or mean. They expect me to go around the obstacle. There is a law here that if your lane is blocked, including the bike lane, you must wait for all traffic on your left to clear before going around the obstruction. I've never obeyed that law. If there is a clear space and I can pull out "safely" I'll do so. Once a car that was maybe 100 feet behind me seeing what I was about to do flashed his lights and honked basically warning me to stay in my lane. Yah, right. At the speed we were going I had plenty of time to pull around what was blocking the bike lane and get back into it before he even drew close. Some people are @#$%'s like that. But what was the guy going to do? Hit me?

H

Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy

Neil,

I agree, and as several others here have said, when I take the lane and ride in a safe predictable manner. I get treated with respect by other road users. When I ride too far to the right that is when I get harassed.

Originally Posted by teachme

My first suggestion would be; find a safer route. If this is not possible, use a mirror and take the lane watching ever so closely as the vehicles approach. Be ready to bale/jump the curb if you see a vehicle bearing down on you. It is better to spill into the ditch rather than have your skull crushed by the windshield of the vehicle that rear ends you.
The following is the scenario I would most watch out for:
Two cars are approaching. You have the right lane. The first car moves over to the left lane followed closely by the second car. The first car is courteous and slows down as he begins to pass you. The second car is an aggressive driver who because he is aggresive is tailgating and does not see you in the right lane. The second car changes lanes to the right to pass and Eureka! there you are!
Be ready to bale out and jump the curb if you see this situation developing!

Originally Posted by squegeeboo

So you dodge in an out of traffic, while riding in the door zone? That's just crazy. NY state law explicitly calls out as far right as practical. If you're constantly jumping 2-3 feet to your left every time a door opens, that's not practical, and it's def. not safe. One door you miss, or one car that misses your swerve, or is passing you right when the door is opening, giving you no option but to panic break, and you are in an accident.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

There is bale jumping as a rodeo sport, but in your usage, the spelling of bale becomes 'bail'. Other than that, your post is a perfect example of the fear mongering that pervades threads like this. About the only thing you might be able to teach me is how to bunny hop. I'd love to be able to do that. Not to jump out the way of crazed cagers but just cuz I think its a cool move.


H

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

There is taking the lane and there is taking the lane. A motorcycle moves at the prevailing speed of traffic, so does a car. A bicycle cannot, except in very limited circumstances. The difference is key. Even states, and I'm sure mine is one of them, since in general its cycling laws are very progressive, even states that allow cyclists the WHOLE lane, do not allow a cyclist to simply sit in the lane and force traffic to pile up behind. That could never be rational. A cyclist described his taking the lane in this very forum as riding in the lane center until six or eight cars were behind then pulling off at a gas station or other convenient re-entry point and repeating the process. To me that is a lose/lose process. Cars lose time, the cyclist loses time. My way, cars constantly filter past on my left. They are thrilled to be able to do this and as a result more or less pass with care. Win/win. I save time because I don't have to STOP to let them past and they save time because they don't have to plod along at a bicycle speed wondering when, or if I am going to let them by. Even in a 25mph zone a bicycle going 15mph (not too shabby) is just creeping to a motorist. You cannot cruise at that speed IN the lane and expect respect. You must let traffic by. You don't have to ride in the gutter but you can't ride 2' out into the lane either. When you must, you must also relinquish that hold on the lane once you have taken care of whatever object avoidance or other necessity that forced you out into the meat of the lane. That's my way. YMMV.

H

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

There is bale jumping as a rodeo sport, but in your usage, the spelling of bale becomes 'bail'. Other than that, your post is a perfect example of the fear mongering that pervades threads like this. About the only thing you might be able to teach me is how to bunny hop. I'd love to be able to do that. Not to jump out the way of crazed cagers but just cuz I think its a cool move.

H

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

No, I do NOT dodge in and out of traffic while riding in the door zone. In fact I can remember very few times when I have had to dodge a door. Other things, yes, but dooring as a high priority issue, even in NYC... ... nope. I lived there. I really did. Rode a gazillion miles in every borough. In the door zone. Know what, saw a ***load of other cyclists doing it too. That's where and how I learned. I simply did not ever see hordes of cyclists cruising down the lane center holding all of Manhattan to a sedate 12 miles per hour. I really don't know what's going on but a major perceptural shift takes place when a lot of you get off your bikes and fire up the web browers to post here. The kind of vehicular cycling that is described here is not the kind of vehicular cycling that I see when I'm on the bike.

H

Originally Posted by caloso

Bunny hopping isn't just a cool move, it's a useful skill. Think of it as a Z-axis swerve to avoid a small road hazard while holding your rightful and safe road position. It's also useful over RR tracks, which if we can recall the OP, is also an issue for this thread.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

Oh dear God! Can we lock this thread or at least move it to A&S. Honestly... the fear mongering. It does the vehicular cycling cause no good. I think I saw ONE rational post in this whole thread. Yikes. That is a lot of ignorance in a small amount of posters. 24" stick with a diamond point on the end of it? I hope when the redneck whose 350 you've scratched finishes beating you, you have the good sense not to report him to the authorities. You know... in the nearly four years I have been here... if all that time had been spent accentuating the positive things we can do as commuters/vehicular cyclists instead of all the bad things drivers do... when a newbie comes in asking for advice we wouldn't all (nearly all) be offering USELESS advice that they could never legally use (am I redundant here) anyway.

I've been cycling for 40 years and the widest thing I've seen on the back of a bike is a milk crate. Do ANY of you have Willow Branches with diamond points (or red flags for that matter) on them? No, you don't, because it simply isn't necessary. If its that bad where you live you don't ride. Period. End of story. If there isn't a bike lane or striped off area of shoulder on a road then you are taking the lane just by being in it. How I wonder is moving further into the traffic stream going to make a person feel SAFER when the cars that pass them will now be displaying all manner of hostility to express their outrage at the road being blocked unecessarily? How? Do you people read what you write. Really read it. Parse it for coherence and credulity?

Sounds like the O.P. isn't the only one in a state of fear. Why ride? Really. It can't be healthy. If I were the o.p. I would ignore every post in this thread, including mine. Go to a local bike store. Chat up the staff. Find one that commutes in the same general area. Ride with him or her a few times. If after a few rides and you are both still alive and that doesn't convince you that riding IN the street isn't the instant invitation to the other side that you want to think it is. Don't ride anymore. Plenty of people don't. I know I sound like a hard*** but that comes from frustration. I meet people with the EXACT same question all the time. When you live in Portland a lot of people want to ride because they see so many other people doing it. Most of them (amazingly) don't actually know anyone personally who rides so when they meet me, I get their questions. I've taken a couple out and seen how they ride in the gutter. I don't ride in the gutter, and I don't hog the road either. What many of you are calling taking the lane is flagrant road hogging and it is actually illegal.

H

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

I've been cycling for 40 years and the widest thing I've seen on the back of a bike is a milk crate. Do ANY of you have Willow Branches with diamond points (or red flags for that matter) on them?

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

There is taking the lane and there is taking the lane. A motorcycle moves at the prevailing speed of traffic, so does a car. A bicycle cannot, except in very limited circumstances. The difference is key. Even states, and I'm sure mine is one of them, since in general its cycling laws are very progressive, even states that allow cyclists the WHOLE lane, do not allow a cyclist to simply sit in the lane and force traffic to pile up behind. That could never be rational. A cyclist described his taking the lane in this very forum as riding in the lane center until six or eight cars were behind then pulling off at a gas station or other convenient re-entry point and repeating the process. To me that is a lose/lose process. Cars lose time, the cyclist loses time. My way, cars constantly filter past on my left. They are thrilled to be able to do this and as a result more or less pass with care. Win/win. I save time because I don't have to STOP to let them past and they save time because they don't have to plod along at a bicycle speed wondering when, or if I am going to let them by. Even in a 25mph zone a bicycle going 15mph (not too shabby) is just creeping to a motorist. You cannot cruise at that speed IN the lane and expect respect. You must let traffic by. You don't have to ride in the gutter but you can't ride 2' out into the lane either. When you must, you must also relinquish that hold on the lane once you have taken care of whatever object avoidance or other necessity that forced you out into the meat of the lane. That's my way. YMMV.

H