Duane Behrens

I'm sorry you feel that way. Allow me to re-phrase my reply as simply and politely as I can, returning to my original point to the OP:

1. There are differences between an entry-level hybrid bike ($600 list) and a mid-level carbon road bike ($2700 list). As you've stated, frame geometry, gearing, seating and handlebar position differ somewhat between the two.
2. However, when climbing on asphalt, those differences are minor when compared to the largest single difference between the two bikes: weight.
3. In my specific experience, going from last to first in my group had little to do with the differences listed in paragraph 1 above, and almost everything to do with pushing 10 less pounds up that hill.
4. The reason for the difference in cost between the two bikes can be found in the technology and labor required to (a) reduce weight while (b) improving performance.

Ultegra gruppos, a 2.2 lb. frame, quick release brakes, ultra-light wheels and tires, low-friction hell-for-strong bottom brackets . . . all of these things combine for a machine that catapults you up the hill when the pedals are engaged, and yet provides an almost surreal envelope of silence while at speed on the flats. It's a combination of better performance through engineering, all with a constant and singular goal; less weight.

It's not cheap. And you get what you pay for. Best. DB

I-Like-To-Bike

The price factor you left out is, as in most performance bicycle product, the price should be as high as the traffic will bear. Apparently enough speed enthusiasts have shown a willingness to pay a very high premium to eke out even the slightest advantage, theoretical or actual, over competition. That competition may be with himself or only bragging rights over the lightest bike within a bicycle club's training rides, but an enthusiast will still pay a premium for any kind of victory.

ThermionicScott 

Given the choice between a hybrid and a road bike that weighed 5-10 lbs more, I'd still pick the road bike for climbing hills -- every time. The position and handlebars just contribute so much to efficiency, whether in the saddle or not.

That's my last contribution to this pissing match.

megalowmatt

Next up: "Dear Bike Forums: Should I Wear a Helmet?"

wolfchild

I think the big lesson here is: Never ever ask a "cycling elitist" which bike to purchase for commuting or general purpose recreational riding...While I am not a big fan of Wallmart bikes, I would never recommend a carbon fibre racing bike to a newbie who is just starting out.

acidfast7

I think you are a moron.

rekmeyata

LOL!! I hope you don't get suspended for saying that, but if you do by some chance...take the suspension and smile because you are right!!

acidfast7

I speak the truth ... even if it hurts.

wphamilton

I have to say, I think ILTB is closer to the mark here. In particular, your #4 above is particularly suspect. The reason for higher prices of the bikes to which you refer is primarily that the market will bear it. Performance especially is not particularly improved for Ultegra over 105. Yes there are exotic materials and development costs, but only because enthusiasts will pay for the unmeasurable performance gains (if they exist). And for lower weight.

Regarding the weight. There is no bike that will catapult you up a hill, relatively speaking or otherwise. One or even two pounds off the frame might get you up the hill one percent faster (mgh/t, 178/180 ratio of weight).

Performance: 105 can run silently and shift almost perfectly. Tiagra can, Sora level components can be adjusted for silent operation and smooth shifts. Heck I've even had Shimano 2200 shifting perfectly with a silent drive train.

It's better stuff, no doubt about it. But it is not a case of "you get what you pay for."

Duane Behrens

:-) I think you absolutely DO get what you pay for - to a price point.

For instance, there are literally dozens of carbon-fiber frame and bike manufacturers out there. And they're doing everything they can, every day, to bring the price point of their bikes downward to a level that will (a) increase their sales while (b) undercutting their competition while (c) providing a superior product.

No bike will "catapult" you up a hill. That's true. But if you've ever climbed PV Drive on a mountain bike one day, and climbed the same hill on a quality carbon bike the next, it will definitely FEEL as if you've been shot out of a cannon.

I also agree with you on your gruppo comment. A 105 derailleur and braking system, adjusted properly, will run quieter and more efficiently than an unattended Dura Ace set. Neither group set is likely to be found on ANY bicycle currently available from Walmart . . .

Those "immeasurable performance gains" you speak of are primarily at the upper echelon of carbon technology. Electronic shifting, Act10 carbon, DuraAce cassettes, internal cabling, carbon fiber rims (!) carbon fiber bottle holders (yes, they really do sell 'em) etc. - these can push the price of a carbon bike up to $9,000 and more, with NEARLY immeasurable performance gains.

Not so in the $500 - $3000 range, where every upward step in quality are usually obvious, primarily because they improve the pleasure found in riding. I honestly don't care whether you or anyone here EVER purchases a quality bicycle. I WILL say that the pleasure in riding a lightweight, crisp-shifting, bike - a bike that quickly becomes an extension of my own body . . . well . . . it's what has kept me riding every day for the past 4 years.

Oh, and it makes a GREAT commuter bike. :-) Take care. DB

megalowmatt

Guys, we're talking about BIKES here. You know, those things we go out and ride and have some fun on? If some of you think this crap is so important you really need to find some new interests or maybe just get out and ride more.

Duane Behrens

Sorry you feel that way. Personally, I think the substitution of insults for reasonable debate is an admission that the debate has been lost.

Quiet withdrawal might have been more dignified. . . certainly less visible. :-) Thanks. Take care.

roashru

2 forum threads in one. im counting almost 2 web pages worth
.

I-Like-To-Bike

I-Like-To-Bike

Oh, Puhleeeze!

wphamilton

Duane, I'm sure you're not implying that those of us in the Commuting Forum don't know what it is to ride every day for years, and don't have "quality" bikes or haven't ridden them. It kind of sounds like it though.

I could commute every day on any bike. If I thought an Ultegra-equipped carbon super-bike would be that wondrous for a commute I'd buy one. But I don't, and I don't think someone inquiring about a Walmart road bike is likely to be particularly concerned about that type of bike.

And no, the increases in performance are not obvious in the 500-3000 range bicycles. When you get down to it, there is no particular increase in durability and reliability between even Tiagra and Ultima, and only a very small improvement in shifting reliability.

Duane Behrens

Apart from poop thrown by a couple of toddlers here, I've found the discussion enjoyable.

I rode 40 miles this morning, and climbed about 4,000 vertical feet. My wife was with me. One poster here recommended NOT suggesting a carbon fiber bike to someone who is just starting out, and I agree with that. We purchased a $1200 Specialized, aluminum-framed Dulce for my wife as a starter bike. Although aluminum, it had the other quality components necessary for a competent ride; in essence, Shimano 105 across the board. She started with standard flat pedals but quickly asked for clip-ins to give her a bit of power on the up stroke. I complied. Six months later, she was riding 7 hours a week, she'd lost 20 pounds and was hooked on the sport. So we got her her first carbon fiber bike, a Specialized Roubaix with a comp (50/34) crankset (I'm still able to run on a standard 53/39 crank). While we can't always ride together during the week, Saturdays and Sundays almost always include a 20 - 40 mile ride up these local hills. It's a great way to spend time together and with friends. And the coffee afterwards is always enjoyable.

If you need and use a 15mm wrench only once or twice a year, then a 15mm wrench purchased from K-Mart or Wally World might, possibly, be fine. The rest of the time it will sit in a corner of your garage, unused and unheeded.

If, however, you need to use that 15mm wrench every day, you'll quickly find that the Wally version is a piece of [expletive deleted]. You'll then purchase a Proto or Snap-on 15mm wrench that, although 3 times more expensive, seems to fit perfectly in your hand and is a pleasure to use.

Bikes are like that.

Duane Behrens

Few months back, we were visited by my sister and brother-in-law. He is a multi- marathon and triathlon competitor and until recently, rode a 20-year old steel-framed road bike for training and for competition. Anticipating his visit, I reserved a new carbon Tarmac for 2 days so we could ride together locally.

The first morning, we did the usual 26 mile loop around the hill, which includes the two long-and-steep hills I mentioned earlier. (He'd brought his own pedals and so was able to click in.) As expected - I mean, the man has like -2% body fat - he waited for me at the top of each long hill.

And at the end of the ride, he got off, gave me a huge grin and said, "Wow . . . on this bike, I feel like I'm CHEATING!" :-) Loved it. You get what you pay for. DB

rekmeyata

Someone else said now I will, this is all nonsense. First off, "immeasurable performance gain"? Really? Then why is it since 1963 to 2013 the Tour De France has only seen a 3 mph gain in average speed? Is that 3 mph gain a result of all that better technology being applied to bikes, food, and training? NO, that 3 mph gain is due to the fact that the TDF over those 40 years shrunk by over 400 miles and the climbs have become less severe!

And the price gain upward in quality improves the pleasure found in riding? Are you really that moronic? You mean to tell me that a person riding a Walmart bike in a park isn't having any fun because they're not on a $15,000 bike? Besides, expensive CF bikes are racing bikes not intended for comfort like a touring bike is, so technically if a person want's to ride a bike for pleasure they need to look at a $1,600 or so touring bike not a $15,000 race bike. A bike only has to cost a person $50 and they could find pleasure in it.

4 years you been riding for, and that bike has done that for you? Tell you what puppy, when you've been riding consistently for 40 or more years as I have and others then come back here and say that, it might have more juice behind it then.

I-Like-To-Bike

Take it to the Road Forum. They lap this "stuff" up like catnip.

Sasquatch.

Exactly! After reading through all this carbon crap and speed vs weight blah blah blah in the commuting thread has made me laugh several times. For what it's worth I commute EVERY weekday 40 miles round trip on sub 1K bikes. They are heavy, strong, reliable and soak up vibration and bumps with big fat tires. I have ridden century rides on said bikes. In fact I am doing a 100+ mile ride tomorrow on my $900, 40 pound commuter. Light and fast has it's place but it's not in the commuting part of this forum.

GeneO 

Gosh, I wonder what the OP thinks of these forums with all of this bickering and irrelevant and misinformed evangelizing? This is only their fifth post. They probably think this forum is full of a bunch of lunatics.

Sasquatch.

It most definitely is.

megalowmatt

This thread has been the perfect storm of lunacy.™

Duane Behrens

REKMEYATA:
Someone else said now I will, this is all nonsense. First off, "immeasurable performance gain"? Really? Then why is it since 1963 to 2013 the Tour De France has only seen a 3 mph gain in average speed?

DUANE: Apparently, there's a comprehension problem here. My point was that, above $3,000 or so, spending even more money produces only or nearly immeasurable performance gains.

REKMEYATA: [snippy]
And the price gain upward in quality improves the pleasure found in riding? Are you really that moronic?

DUANE:
Well, I'm not "moronic" [sic] to the point that I insult other good men and women here.

I didn't say that a mere "price gain upward" improves enjoyment. I stated that, in the $500 - $3000 range, the quality components that DO increase riding enjoyment also tend to place the bicycle on the more expensive end of that range.

REKMEYATA:
You mean to tell me that a person riding a Walmart bike in a park isn't having any fun because they're not on a $15,000 bike?

DUANE:
Wow. Please find any quote from me in which I recommended that ANYONE purchase a $15,000 bike? You won't, because I never wrote it. Why are you repeatedly posting something that simply isn't true?

I DID, at one point, suggest $1,000 as an approximate starting point for a new commuter bike. Not $15,000. And a Walmart rider may well find enjoyment riding in his/her local park bike path, until he/she climbs a hill and/or until the bike breaks . . . which probably won't be long. At that point, the victim will probably put the bike back in the corner of their garage and try not to think about it. That's a sad ending that doesn't need to be.

REKMEYATA:
Besides, expensive CF bikes are racing bikes not intended for comfort like a touring bike is, so technically if a person want's to ride a bike for pleasure they need to look at a $1,600 or so touring bike not a $15,000 race bike. A bike only has to cost a person $50 and they could find pleasure in it.

DUANE:
You keep repeating this fantastical "$15,000" number, something I've never said. I stated $1,000 as a reasonable starting point for a quality commuter bike. You've suggested $1600. I won't argue, I just personally think you can get a quality commuter bike for a bit less than that. My new steel Surly Crosscheck, purchased for $1200, accepts bag frames, is reasonably lightweight and best of all has quality components. Not as expensive, lightweight or fun to ride, it is nevertheless a good, all-round commuter bike. You get what you pay for. Surly provides incredible value.

REKMEYATA:
4 years you been riding for, and that bike has done that for you? Tell you what puppy, when you've been riding consistently for 40 or more years as I have and others then come back here and say that, it might have more juice behind it then.

DUANE:
Why didn't you just yell at me to get off your lawn? :-) Honestly, I've been riding for, I don't know, around 35 years I guess. But I didn't discover top quality components or carbon frames until about 4 years ago, and it re-awakened my joy for cycling.

Yes, the heavier steel Surly provides a better commuter bike, but only because it can accept my lunch pail. The thing is, they BOTH run on quality components . . . They're both a pleasure to ride, but at a certain minimal cost . . . because YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Sigh. :-)