[disclaimer - the things I wrote here are things I am currently thinking about and I do not necessarily have a strong opinion either way - you don't need to tell the merits of bike commuting - I know what they are and have been commuting several years. I think commuting by bicycle is awesome for a variety of reasons, so if you respond try to stay on point because I am genuinely curious about folks' reactions if they can challenge themselves to consider what I wrote below]

I am a bike commuter and I love it and feel like it is part of my personal identity at this point, but I thought about this the other day and wonder what perspectives people in this forum might bring to this thought...

For some reason I thought back to a comment or an alternative 'zine at a punk show where the argument was made that going camping was offensive because it was essentially people who have shelter and live a comfortable life going out into the woods and intentionally "playing poor" or imagining that they lived a life of less privilege as a sort of exciting game to play or "roughing it", and how that might seem to be mockery to a person actually doesn't have shelter or comfort on a regular basis.

I don't really know why or how I started making the connection to bike commuting. Do you think there are any similarities here? I know that we all, in this forum, enjoy riding our bikes from place to place - but how do we look, collectively, to folks who riding a bicycle is their only option. While we brag online about how cold it was when we rode to work or how we rode in the rain and so on and so forth, or how much money we saved on car expenses, what about folks who do that because they have to? Not because it's a 'challenge,' or fun, or whatever?

Part of the reason I thought about it was because I don't know that I generally categorize bicycle hobbyist/enthusiast commuters and people who can not afford a car or who have a DUI or whatever in the same category - and I felt a little guilty separating them. I ride through some fairly impoverished areas and occasionally see people on cheapo, old bicycles, kids' bikes, bmxes, etc. who are under-dressed for the weather, and I wonder how ******-y I look to them with my "fancy" lights, helmet, cycling jacket, and panniers.

Thoughts?

The argument concerning camping is based on some pretty sketchy assumptions - e.g., that people are imaging they live a less privileged life. This is an argument that contains bad inferences. The premise simply does not support the conclusion.

As to how you look to others, regardless of economic status, I suspect varies greatly from individual to individual.

I don't know. Am I'm being offensive to poor people if I drive a 12 year old Saturn even though I could afford something much nicer if I wanted to?

I guess I disagree with the premise. I don't in any way associate my going camping with "playing poor" or living a life of less privilege. In fact, I feel privileged to be able to have done so in some of the places we've gone. I realize that homeless people may sleep outdoors in a sleeping bag because they have no choice, but I'm not trying to mimic that experience of being poor by doing the same in a beautiful, maybe even exotic location. I think spending a week out of doors can be a fabulous experience.

On the other hand, if a homeless person were to see somebody on here complain about being out in the cold for an hour, they may scoff. And I think perhaps rightly so.

At the same time, for me, I don't see commuting by bike as a less desirable choice than driving on most days.

First I think the idea of camping as playing poor is ridiculous. We go camping for many reasons: to enjoy the outdoors, learn new skills, exercise or sometimes it is the easiest way for large groups such as family gatherings to get together. Camping used to be the cheap way to travel.

My parents were hillbillies from the Ozarks and Ouchitas. They both liked to spend time outdoors and camping was the only way for people working in the city to do so. They taught my brothers and me to enjoy the outdoors as well.

As to the bicycle commuting as a hobby. Is it offensive? My first response is I don't care. I commute because I enjoy it. My secondary reasons for commuting is exercise and saving money. I do have a pickup and drive in on days when I don't feel like commuting. If people find that offensive that's too bad.

That said I have lived with the bicycle as my only transportation. I was not offended by the "rich" riders in super bikes and spandex. Envious of their bikes maybe (I was riding an old schwinn varsity) but why be offended?

I could have afforded a car but my decision was the car would cost more than I wanted to pay for the value. When I started making more money I got a car. I also got cholesterol and fat. Bicycle commuting fixed that.

I see bicycle commuting less as a "hobby" and more as a way to easily combine exercise and transportation, so the camping analogy just wouldn't work *for me.*

+1 Succinctly said.

The only "guilt" I have felt for being a cyclist is toward my fellow cyclists, rich or poor, because I have it so good:

Hoo Boy! Whoever said that hasn't been camping. Going camping is about surrounding yourself with nature. And if you have a nature deficit like most people, it's a good thing.


I've commuted a lot and talked with and interviewed them. They depend on their big box bike to get them to work and back and do errands. They are not concerned with your categories like you are. They just want to ride and be respected and hope that one day, they can make it across town to enjoy the MUP they've heard about. Heck, these days I am one of them.

Forget the dialectic you have going here, relax and ride.

I pretty much agree with everyone else's comments here. Here's my $.02.

I understand the original argument you described, but IMO this is really a matter of the heart. Yours and theirs, not with the equipment you're choosing to use (your bike) or not to use (your car).

If you buy, ride, or drive fancy cars/bikes just to show off, I'd say that's foolish and asking for people to hate you.

If you are less fortunate and feel contempt towards the rich, chances are you're thinking of ways to end the rich person's fortune rather than improving your own. Thus, one remains in the poor mindset, hating those more fortunate.

The only thing I can have control of is my own heart and intentions. My philosophy is to be generous when I can and always considerate of others (with the knowledge that nothing I do can truly control other's feelings or perceptions of me).

Commuting is a political statement and a small part of a lifestyle philosophy I ascribe to.

In short, anyone who finds bike commuting or camping being done by people who can afford a car or shelter offensive really needs to thicken their skin up a bit and it is shocking they made it to adulthood.

I say, if you love something why question it. I would really like to talk with someone who honestly felt camping was offensive. It is in no way trying to play poor, it is simply trying to enjoy the world around you and look at it from a different perspective.

I would also add, I think if anything commuting has given me more respect from some of the homeless customers I worked with when I was on the retail side of the bike world. I have ran across one of our regular homeless customers a number of times when I was on my commute, we both really enjoy talking with each other and he seems excited whenever we cross paths and get to talk even though I am on a Ti commuter which is clearly not cheap.

I think the homeless love seeing people that are able to drive whenever they choose riding a bike because it is finally wearing down the stigma that everyone on a bike is poor and has no choice and I think they love the fact that for once they are not always instantly thought of as a "poor person on a bike" but rather just being thought of as a person. I don't know many people that like being instantly labeled.

I think bike commuters are generally offensive to car drivers. I don't really care what people think about me, particularly when I'm riding a bike.

I don't think anyone that is bike commuting is "experiencing the homeless life", I think people have their own reasons, however. Many are making political statements, environmental statements, etc. Personally, I just do it for exercise. I want to be able to keep up with my kids as they grow up.

If anyone is commuting by bicycle to a job only because they want to experience life as a hobo, that second part pretty well negates the first.

FWIW I also love camping

It looks like I'm the closest guy that you'll find here to the wretched, huddled masses you're wondering about -- and I'm still a far cry from a hispanic dishwasher on a rusty purple mtb on the sidewalk.

In short, they don't think about you at all. Too much other chaos happening.

Me, I marvel daily at all the wanking.

So let me get this straight. I'm being offensive if I am not doing absolutely everything that I do in the most luxurious way that I am able to afford, and "luxurious" is defined by someone else, not me.

I'm not riding a bike because I am playing poor. I'm not doing it to save money. I'm doing it to benefit my health, to benefit the environment, and because it is the mode of travel that I enjoy the most.

This quote reflects my opinion on people who seem to not be happy unless they've found something to be offended by:
https://i.imgur.com/fGelg.jpg

I understand the reasoning behind the thoughts in your original post. I think it's flawed as I've said but I do get it. Wealth can allow (cause) us to do things that might seem ridiculous to people less fortunate.

To someone who lives in a tent city because they have no choice, it might seem ludicrous to choose to spend a week in a tent if you have a perfectly good house and bed to sleep in.

And to someone who might really want a car, but can't afford one, the idea of a wealthy person choosing to ride a bike to work might seem crazy.

There is another way to look at it however. Just because we are wealthy enough not to have to do some things, doesn't mean we don't benefit from doing them anyway. And maybe other people benefit from us doing those things too.

[QUOTE=WestMass;16556598 . . . a comment or an alternative 'zine at a punk show . . . Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Methinks you have read too much into (and extrapolated far too much from) "a comment or an alternative 'zine at a punk show."

Neither camping nor bicycle commuting is "playing poor." I do both because I enjoy them.

Rick / OCRR

What a weird idea. My guess is that poor people would prefer that there were more people on bikes as opposed to buzzing them in BMW's.

What was interesting about the original about camping was that it was a group of non-homeless people making assumptions about what a homeless person might feel about a wealthy person camping.

Now, I'm not claiming that all homeless people feel this way, but a good portion of them in this area choose to sleep outside over the hassles of seeking a spot in a homeless shelter (and the rules they'd have to abide by). That's not to say that most of them wouldn't love to have their own place and a pile of money, but for many of them "camping" is preferable to a shelter.

Ha!

I do both and I don't care who's offended.

Frankly, what I find offensive is the arrogance in assuming that poor people notice you and give you a second thought just because you have some fancy gear.

TV and radio personalities, spending the night in a tent of the roof of an advertiser's building to "bring awareness to the plight of the poor", is offensive playing poor.

As much as I detest it, camping isn't about playing poor. Hell, a new campground opening just outside town is advertising wood-fired pizza and helicopter rides. Helicopter rides are hardly paying poor.

Yep. THIS!!!

So many others have said it, but I will throw my 2 cents in: I disagree with the premise.

I think there could be a way of going camping that would be 'playing poor' -- if I went and set up my Taj Mahal tent on the side of the highway exit where a number of homeless have set up their tents; if I camped (illegally) in the parkland near my home, where the homeless set up tent cities (until the cops roust them). But if I go to a national park, and camp in the designated campgrounds, I don't think there's any element of 'playing poor'. Is it 'playing poor' if I live in a townhouse when I could potentially afford a McMansion? is it playing poor that I work for the government for 70-80% of what my private sector colleagues make? Is it playing poor if I buy generic brand peanut butter instead of fresh ground, organic peanut butter? (actually, I hate peanut butter, so I'm not sure why I chose that example...)

I recognize that bike commuting is, in many ways, a hobby for me. I have no need to do it, but I enjoy it. It has many health benefits, and it keeps my mental state in a better place. But do I think that the guys riding the clapped out huffys that are riding on underinflated tires should be P.O.ed at me? No. Heck - they benefit greatly from the fact that there are affluent cyclists who push cycling facilities and infrastructure. Likewise, I do my best not to be judgmental when I see one of them riding at night with no lights, no reflective gear, and the wrong way... It still frustrates me, but I don't judge.