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A different view re: what is too much

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A different view re: what is too much

Old 08-09-15, 07:43 AM
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bowzette
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A different view re: what is too much

Will Endurance Training Kill You? Perspectives on Velonews' "Cycling to Extremes" Article - CTS

yes I realize Carmichael gets his money from dedicated riders but article is worth reading. we all are going to make up our own minds and make decisions accordingly.
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Old 08-09-15, 08:02 AM
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I refuse to let "the studies" run my life.
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Old 08-09-15, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by OldsCOOL View Post
I refuse to let "the studies" run my life.
I Agree 110%, and I'd like to add this little tid bit, We are over fifty,,,WE should not be doing anything to the extreme.

I mean come on, 'All things In Moderation',, 'Don't over do It', advice to live by. I do believe In, 'No Pain, No Gain' and all that but I stop before Injury or death, Ya think ?
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Old 08-09-15, 03:51 PM
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I will be hitting 63 in a couple months. The first of July I got a new bike (replacing the Safari which died an honorable death on the back of my Camry, which got rear-ended), and I've been training fairly strenuously, progressively longer rides but not fast: touring speed. Gradually I worked up to 52 mile rides (with 1900+ feet elevation gain, some really nice hills) which at first were followed by a nap and then a rest day. Since Aug 1, I've been riding 52 mile rides two days in a row, with a rest day next, followed by 2 more days of 52 miles, until this weekend when I've ridden 3 - 52 mile loops each day, Fri Sat Sun (total 360+ miles in 7 days of pedaling over 9 calendar days). I'm kinda tired this afternoon but not really dead yet. Feels good. If it is bad for me, I don't care. Gonna rest tomorrow, then ride 2 days, rest, then ride maybe 3 or 4 days in a row, depending how I feel. The loop takes about 4 hrs pedaling, at about 13mph, and I stop now and then to drink, eat, etc. My plan is to gain endurance (more days in a row) and then take some side roads on my route to extend the distance. Last fall I rode the Natchez Trace (450 miles) in 9 days of pedaling over 12 calendar days, and I felt better at the end than I have in years.
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Old 08-09-15, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by osco53 View Post
I Agree 110%, and I'd like to add this little tid bit, We are over fifty,,,WE should not be doing anything to the extreme.

I mean come on, 'All things In Moderation',, 'Don't over do It', advice to live by. I do believe In, 'No Pain, No Gain' and all that but I stop before Injury or death, Ya think ?
I disagree. Most of the evidence suggests that intense "extreme" exercise is beneficial, even for the very elderly. It's a mistake to think that going hard will lead to injury or death. Actually, failing to go hard probably has more negative consequences, and the notion that the over fifties shouldn't exercise vigorously probably appeals more because we are lazy and prefer to be comfortable than because it has any intrinsic merit.

Of course, drving oneself to complete exhaustion by riding at threshold for hours at a time may not be the smartest idea. But going as hard as possible for short periods seems to be extremely beneficial.
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Old 08-09-15, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
I disagree. Most of the evidence suggests that intense "extreme" exercise is beneficial, even for the very elderly. It's a mistake to think that going hard will lead to injury or death. Actually, failing to go hard probably has more negative consequences, and the notion that the over fifties shouldn't exercise vigorously probably appeals more because we are lazy and prefer to be comfortable than because it has any intrinsic merit.

Of course, drving oneself to complete exhaustion by riding at threshold for hours at a time may not be the smartest idea. But going as hard as possible for short periods seems to be extremely beneficial.
Joe Fries agrees with you. See his new book Fast After 50. Everyone will have their own take on the debate. I've opted for intensity and a weekly long ride but sacrifice total volume for good rest. Looks like I have to have two very easy or off the bike days before a ride of intensity or long duration. Friel who has turned 70 is following this schedule based on a 9 day period instead of 7. But as they say "YMMV". Whatever you do needs to be fun.
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Old 08-09-15, 07:16 PM
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Wow DeadGrandpa what a wonderful post! I've been thinking of training like that and you've inspired me to give it a go.

Charlie
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Old 08-09-15, 09:44 PM
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I'm 61 and I've been invited to a century with 12,000 feet of climbing on the 22nd of this month. It's been a few years since I did that much climbing and at 205 pounds, it ain't easy.
Not much time to get ready, and my job wears me out when it's hot, but I might go and do a shortened version.

I hope to retire or at least work part time soon and if that happens I would like to train to do more long climbing rides, and even stay close to some of the good climbers.

For the past several years I have done a lot of fast club rides and they can be fun, especially if the right people are there, but sometimes the speeds are too high for me and I have more fun in the mountains.
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Old 08-10-15, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
I will be hitting 63 in a couple months. The first of July I got a new bike (replacing the Safari which died an honorable death on the back of my Camry, which got rear-ended), and I've been training fairly strenuously, progressively longer rides but not fast: touring speed. Gradually I worked up to 52 mile rides (with 1900+ feet elevation gain, some really nice hills) which at first were followed by a nap and then a rest day. Since Aug 1, I've been riding 52 mile rides two days in a row, with a rest day next, followed by 2 more days of 52 miles, until this weekend when I've ridden 3 - 52 mile loops each day, Fri Sat Sun (total 360+ miles in 7 days of pedaling over 9 calendar days). I'm kinda tired this afternoon but not really dead yet. Feels good. If it is bad for me, I don't care. Gonna rest tomorrow, then ride 2 days, rest, then ride maybe 3 or 4 days in a row, depending how I feel. The loop takes about 4 hrs pedaling, at about 13mph, and I stop now and then to drink, eat, etc. My plan is to gain endurance (more days in a row) and then take some side roads on my route to extend the distance. Last fall I rode the Natchez Trace (450 miles) in 9 days of pedaling over 12 calendar days, and I felt better at the end than I have in years.

wow you just became my new idol. I'm 61, and trying to increase my mileage, I like you plan very much.
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Old 08-11-15, 07:51 AM
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google: juniors, doping, Carmichael.

Some people deserve shunning.

As far as riding and/or training into geezerhood, I do not think intensity of short efforts is your enemy. It appears to me that -- with proper preparation -- HIIT may be the fountain of youth. There is, on the other hand, enough evidence of irreversible damage accruing (we think) due to extreme endurance effort that we ought to pay attention. Multiple hours at threshold is what I am speaking of. Not the sort of thing your average fit or even fast-after-50 athlete is doing.

I'm nowhere near Friel's preferred level of organization and planning, but I can vouch for the basic approach: a lot of Z2 base training followed by a build period incorporating a variety of HIIT, more Z2 "recreational" riding and (always) adequate recovery time. If you are fortunate to still be basically healthy, and have the work ethic and discipline to do this stuff... and the sense to back off and recover when any part of the bod says "enough", you will be amazed at what is possible. Set the clock back, fitness wise, a few decades.
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Old 08-11-15, 09:12 AM
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I read the article twice, very interesting, seems well grounded & balanced. First off, there are obviously no clear indications as to who will or will not get atrial or ventricular issues. What does seem clear from the article is that you might ask yourself "where do I lie on the bell curve of long-term very high exertion activity." And if you think you're on the far right side of this curve and have been for many years, you're working in that zone of risk factors.

It was also very interesting to hear both Zinn & Endicott emphasize the strength of their early denial. Most of us are very proud of the work we do to maintain a higher level of conditioning (and we should be, methinks). But this article makes it plain to see, that just because we can build up our hearts to work above and beyond, does not imply that there is no long-term cost. And the more extreme the demands, the higher that long-term cost appears to be.

I certainly hope Velo continues to bring more content like this to the readers. It's good work, relevant and generates interesting discussion.
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Old 08-11-15, 09:24 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
I will be hitting 63 in a couple months. The first of July I got a new bike (replacing the Safari which died an honorable death on the back of my Camry, which got rear-ended), and I've been training fairly strenuously, progressively longer rides but not fast: touring speed. Gradually I worked up to 52 mile rides (with 1900+ feet elevation gain, some really nice hills) which at first were followed by a nap and then a rest day. Since Aug 1, I've been riding 52 mile rides two days in a row, with a rest day next, followed by 2 more days of 52 miles, until this weekend when I've ridden 3 - 52 mile loops each day, Fri Sat Sun (total 360+ miles in 7 days of pedaling over 9 calendar days). I'm kinda tired this afternoon but not really dead yet. Feels good. If it is bad for me, I don't care. Gonna rest tomorrow, then ride 2 days, rest, then ride maybe 3 or 4 days in a row, depending how I feel. The loop takes about 4 hrs pedaling, at about 13mph, and I stop now and then to drink, eat, etc. My plan is to gain endurance (more days in a row) and then take some side roads on my route to extend the distance. Last fall I rode the Natchez Trace (450 miles) in 9 days of pedaling over 12 calendar days, and I felt better at the end than I have in years.
That's the spirit.

IMO, people read too much into these studies and take the anecdotes way too serious. Most of us are not jacking our heart rates up into the high 150's for 6 to 8 hours like these endurance riders. Even those of us who ride 3 to 6 hours doing half and full centuries are not really pushing our bodies to those limits.

Would I run a full marathon at age 50-plus? Probably not. Would I ride in a 150-mile endurance race at this age? No. But, would I challenge myself to do back to back centuries and/or a few 150-mile rides in a row? Absolutely.
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Old 08-11-15, 09:53 AM
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Im semi inspired by you lot. I say semi because long rides bore me to death, take up too much time, and ive too many other things to do. . . guess im a jack of many hobbies, master of none. . . Aint gonna win no bike races thats for sure. Have fun!
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Old 08-11-15, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by baron von trail View Post
That's the spirit.

IMO, people read too much into these studies and take the anecdotes way too serious.
I agree. Well, unless you were actually part of the study you're reading too much into .

Fortunately, I can ride to work three days a week (Mon.-Wed.-Fri.) and it's not very far (19 mi. round trip) so it's easy for me to use those days as active recovery; most often not getting my heart rate above 120 bpm.

Tues. and Thurs. nights we have evening club rides, and I have hit some high bpm's on those (several minutes @ 175 got me in trouble!) since there are always climbs, quite often a spirited group of riders and good (testosterone encouraged) fun. If I'm not feeling spunky I'll ride sweep with the groupetto, so no worries.

On Saturdays I usually head up into the mountains (GMR/GRR, Hwy 2, Hwy 39, Hwy 18/38 . . . if you know SoCal) and that is my real fun day with several thousand feet of climbing, many miles, quite often a century. That's really the only day of the week where exertion and endurance are at high levels.

Sundays bounce around, sometimes a ride to the beach on my fixed gear (30 mi. round trip), other times a short mountain-road ride (GMR/GRR to Baldy Village), still others an actual mountain bike ride, esp. if I'm up at Big Bear.

From five to seven times a year I ride double-centuries but even then it's a pretty relaxed pace (keeping time cuts in mind where applicable) and for sure no high heart rates. Usually 14-16 mph average, depending on how much climbing is involved.

This "schedule" has worked for me for the last several years and given that I get enough sleep (and other life duties don't get in the way) it's really no problem and (I think) pretty healthy; no matter what "the studies" show. I'm 65 now and still working 40 hr. a week, so let's see how long I can keep at it

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Old 08-11-15, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws View Post
Im semi inspired by you lot. I say semi because long rides bore me to death, take up too much time, and ive too many other things to do. . . guess im a jack of many hobbies, master of none. . . Aint gonna win no bike races thats for sure. Have fun!
It takes all kinds, peterws. I have come to understand certain personality types do not appreciate the existential quality, the serenity, of long rides, but there are many reasons to take a long ride. I don't know what my reasons are, but there is the scenery, the progression of the seasons and the crops in the field. Last week I saw a 300 pound pig lying asleep on the front porch of a farmhouse about 50 feet from the road; a sight like that is enough for me to keep riding and wondering what I'll see over the next hill. I am never bored. I have plenty of other things to do but don't let those things rule my life. I saw a pig sleeping on a porch!!!
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Old 08-11-15, 05:26 PM
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I had fun today doing some single track including up and down hills, a mud hole, roots, branches, winding trail, rocks and meadows. It was a blast. An absolutely enjoyable outing. At 75yo, I did push the heart rate a bit (well, more than a bit) and I did rest a lot to get the HR back down. I guess a form of HIIT of my own devising??

I do all kinds - longer rides (at least for me), rides with the wife, trails, single track. No boredom for me, as everything changes all the time. I'll never know what I will see or who I will meet.

Great new flowers today, met some different folks - it's all good.
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Old 08-11-15, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by blacknbluebikes View Post
I certainly hope Velo continues to bring more content like this to the readers. It's good work, relevant and generates interesting discussion.
Agree.
The article prompted me to install a new cycle computer w/ HRM, why not get an idea of where "things" are at?

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Old 08-12-15, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
It takes all kinds, peterws. I have come to understand certain personality types do not appreciate the existential quality, the serenity, of long rides, but there are many reasons to take a long ride. I don't know what my reasons are, but there is the scenery, the progression of the seasons and the crops in the field. Last week I saw a 300 pound pig lying asleep on the front porch of a farmhouse about 50 feet from the road; a sight like that is enough for me to keep riding and wondering what I'll see over the next hill. I am never bored. I have plenty of other things to do but don't let those things rule my life. I saw a pig sleeping on a porch!!!
I'm not fast at all but I do push the pace doing halfhearted intervals and go at hills, such as we have in fairly flat terrain. Being asthmatic, I'll never be fast but I've seen great improvement climbing. My longest rides are in the area of 50 to 60+ miles which are my favorite rides as I love seeing what there is to see. I love wild flowers by the roadside, farms and barns and horses. During one club ride, we passed a pasture with horses who then got excited by the motion of the bikes and began galloping along the fence bordering the road. Fun but not as good as a pig on a porch.
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Old 08-12-15, 10:21 AM
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Out today for a short trip. A farmer was rounding up his cloned sows wi a Landcruiser, horn blaring, complete wi steel drum clattering in the back.
But not all cloned cows are equal, even if they do face the the same way. Two stood out, and failed to cooperate, so the farmer swung his vehicle in hot pursuit. By the time he sorted out the miscreants, the rest o the herd were back where they started.

You dont want to hear a Scottish farmer swear, you really dont.

Good job they dont clone farmers. . .
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Old 08-12-15, 10:46 AM
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I'm well over 50 and I do long rides. I start a 1230km ride Sunday. I think the issue associated with AF is gut permeability and a sepsis-like effect in the blood....LPS. Keeping you gut healthy and not overdoinging it in the heat along with some specialized supplements is my way. I'm probably the type of rider the article is addressing but they really did me no help. I know NSAIDs are a huge no no for me as is alcohol.
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Old 08-12-15, 12:19 PM
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Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

That's where the real fun is.
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Old 08-12-15, 12:19 PM
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I rode through the middle of a herd of deer on the bike path, yesterday.
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Old 08-13-15, 12:00 AM
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That happened to me years ago, with cows on the road. My pal had to negotiate the mayhem i left behind. . .played bloody hell with me. . .
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Old 08-14-15, 05:07 AM
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Another study that suggest moderation is best, for longevity anyway...

"The U-shaped relationship between exercise levels and the likelihood of subsequent heart failure is a unique finding..."

Moderate Physical Activity Associated with Lower Risk of Heart Failure in Men - American College of Cardiology
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Old 08-14-15, 09:35 AM
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I am a former endurance athlete with heart disease unrelated to sport. I had a heart attack at age 43 which left me with permanent heart damage. Almost 3 years ago, I had quadruple bypass which restored good blood flow to my heart but, of course, had no effect on the damaged muscle. So, my ejection fraction is 41%, which is slightly above congestive heart failure levels. It was 41% before surgery, 41% after surgery, and 41% after 1,000 miles of cycling. I'm 66 and at an "ideal" weight.

Here's the thing: I have learned to "train" smart - lots of base miles before I hit the hills or the intervals, and at least 2 days of rest a week. Also, strength training to keep the bones strong, increase comfort on the bike, and more short interval power. This year I'm on track to ride over 2,000 miles with about 36,000 ft. of climbing...maybe more. I'm entering a 50 mile gravel race in October and can't wait! I feel great and love my longer rides.

I agree that these associations between endurance sports and AF apply to very long efforts at threshold, not short intense intervals, and the mileages most of us ride are clearly not hurting us and helping us in so many ways!
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