Long ride w climbs = tired
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Long ride w climbs = tired
Yesterday, I did a ride with friends that ended up being 64 miles and over 4,000' of climbing. The distance and climbs were not an issue at all, but I was getting leg cramps at the 6-7 miles left to go mark, with all uphill to go.
Here is the Strava link https://www.strava.com/activities/63...ref_map=%5B%5D
A few things, I started out fasted (like I always do for morning rides, regardless of length and speed) but had plenty of water, electrolytes and a gel for the ride. About a half hour before the cramps started (55 miles into the ride), we stopped at a bakery and I had a 'Mountain Dew" with a crescent rugula. I never drink soda but it just seemed like the right thing to have at the moment.
A few cramps when I got home but after a beet salad w apple cider vinegar, they stopped. The odd thing here is that I never cramp up during a ride. Sometimes after a ride and rarely ever night time cramps, unless I have a beer. That seems to bring on night time cramps for me, and night time bathroom trips too, lol.
Last thing, on a steep climb, we had a fast decent and for the first time ever, my front tire shimmied violently (about 45 mph). The bike is a Specialized Roubaix and nothing was loose (headset, wheel, etc) but I barely saved myself from a near wreck. That was not a good feeling but I did squeeze the top tube with my knees and shift my weight back and that helped a lot.
I'm fine today and looking to ride again tonight with the club but wanted to learn from this. Oh, I have only been riding for 11 months, so I am not that experienced, hence why I ask the questions.
Thanks in advance for the anticipated help.
Here is the Strava link https://www.strava.com/activities/63...ref_map=%5B%5D
A few things, I started out fasted (like I always do for morning rides, regardless of length and speed) but had plenty of water, electrolytes and a gel for the ride. About a half hour before the cramps started (55 miles into the ride), we stopped at a bakery and I had a 'Mountain Dew" with a crescent rugula. I never drink soda but it just seemed like the right thing to have at the moment.
A few cramps when I got home but after a beet salad w apple cider vinegar, they stopped. The odd thing here is that I never cramp up during a ride. Sometimes after a ride and rarely ever night time cramps, unless I have a beer. That seems to bring on night time cramps for me, and night time bathroom trips too, lol.
Last thing, on a steep climb, we had a fast decent and for the first time ever, my front tire shimmied violently (about 45 mph). The bike is a Specialized Roubaix and nothing was loose (headset, wheel, etc) but I barely saved myself from a near wreck. That was not a good feeling but I did squeeze the top tube with my knees and shift my weight back and that helped a lot.
I'm fine today and looking to ride again tonight with the club but wanted to learn from this. Oh, I have only been riding for 11 months, so I am not that experienced, hence why I ask the questions.
Thanks in advance for the anticipated help.
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What questions do you intend to ask, because you haven't asked any yet?
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I'm no doctor and I don't subject myself to many punishing, hilly rides, but I suspect it's all the sugar in the soda and the rugullah that caused the cramps. Soda also has salt, if I'm not mistaken, which would sap some of the hydration that keeps you from cramping.
Anybody with more knowledge wanna comment?
Anybody with more knowledge wanna comment?
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And right you are.... what may have brought on the cramping when I normally do not get them? Was the soda part of the reason? I was taking in good amounts of water, gel and electrolytes and for riding almost a year, that was my first experience with cramps.
Also, why the front end shimmy? The bike never did that before on faster descents?
Is going out "fasted" bad for a 58 year old Cylde? I've been routinely doing it for every morning ride and it hasn't caused me any ill effects so far. I do it to try and firm up and drop 5-10 pounds.
Thanks
Last edited by NYMXer; 07-13-16 at 12:13 PM.
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The reason I took the Mountain Dew was for the sugar and caffeine. I doubt I'll drink soda during a ride again and that is easy for a guy who doesn't normally drink any soda to do.
It was a long and climbing ride but at a relaxed paced with several stops. It was 80sih degrees and moderate sweating but I thought I was prepared for replacing electrolytes and hydration. Maybe it just wasn't enough?
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I don't set out on an empty stomach, and I avoid sodas. It might have been helpful to eat a banana before the ride.
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We took a few liberal rests and the ride was at a relaxed pace for me so I didn't feel that I was pushing myself until the last 6 miles when the leg cramps started. Both legs, inner thigh, back of thigh and calves.
I think my soda days, as short lived as they were, are officially over. I know some club cyclist have told me a "Coke" after a ride helps them.
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I'm no doctor and I don't subject myself to many punishing, hilly rides, but I suspect it's all the sugar in the soda and the rugullah that caused the cramps. Soda also has salt, if I'm not mistaken, which would sap some of the hydration that keeps you from cramping.
Anybody with more knowledge wanna comment?
Anybody with more knowledge wanna comment?
Nor does the soda have much in way of "salts" in it. It has some sodium salts of various types but the total sodium concentration is about 4% which isn't that high.
The WebMD page on nighttime leg cramps list 3 causes that are related to NYMXer's issue
- Exercising, injury, or overuse of muscles.
- Not having enough potassium, calcium, and other minerals in your blood.
- Being dehydrated, which means that your body has lost too much fluid.
But when the system is perturbed by low blood glucose, muscle glycogen depletion, dehydration, accumulated muscle damage, high body temperature, severe salt loss, accumulation of metabolites, or reduced muscle blood flow, fatigue will gradually or suddenly sets in. The neuromuscular system becomes unstable. Muscle cramps are often associated with fatigue, a painful example of a failure in neuromuscular performance.
Basically, eat something before you start riding. Eat something and/or drink while riding. Gatorade does do a great job of replenishing sugar and electrolytes while riding but water is just as important.
I fully understand where NYMXer is coming from. I've experience cramps during a ride and post ride. I often get them while on tour because I haven't been drinking and eating enough while also doing a lot of intense climbing. The worst are quad cramps. It feels like your leg is going to pull your femur into pieces. The worst time to get a quad cramp is when you are crawling into a tent and you are stuck with your body half way in and your legs rigid because it hurts so much. And you can't go and get the Gatorade you need because your legs simply won't work to get you up off the ground.
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No, the sugar in the soda didn't cause leg cramps. And arugula has very little sugar in the plant. It's a member of the Brassicaceae family and is related, as are many vegetables, to cabbages which aren't known to have lots of sugars in them. Hint: If it tastes sweet, it has sugar. If it doesn't, well, it doesn't.
Nor does the soda have much in way of "salts" in it. It has some sodium salts of various types but the total sodium concentration is about 4% which isn't that high.
The WebMD page on nighttime leg cramps list 3 causes that are related to NYMXer's issue
His other mistake was to start out on an empty tank. This website is prehaps a bit more on target than the WebMD page when it comes to exercise induced cramps. This is the most important quote from that website
Starting exercise without energy on board in the morning puts the body in a glycogen deficient. The body will attempt to adjust by drawing on other energy stores but it takes time to mobilize those. Meanwhile, you are exercising and losing fluids as well as electrolytes which will also contribute to cramping. By the time NYMXer got something to eat, he was already in a hole and his food and soda didn't lift him out of the hole much. Add in summer heat and humidity and the hole is just deeper.
Basically, eat something before you start riding. Eat something and/or drink while riding. Gatorade does do a great job of replenishing sugar and electrolytes while riding but water is just as important.
I fully understand where NYMXer is coming from. I've experience cramps during a ride and post ride. I often get them while on tour because I haven't been drinking and eating enough while also doing a lot of intense climbing. The worst are quad cramps. It feels like your leg is going to pull your femur into pieces. The worst time to get a quad cramp is when you are crawling into a tent and you are stuck with your body half way in and your legs rigid because it hurts so much. And you can't go and get the Gatorade you need because your legs simply won't work to get you up off the ground.
Nor does the soda have much in way of "salts" in it. It has some sodium salts of various types but the total sodium concentration is about 4% which isn't that high.
The WebMD page on nighttime leg cramps list 3 causes that are related to NYMXer's issue
His other mistake was to start out on an empty tank. This website is prehaps a bit more on target than the WebMD page when it comes to exercise induced cramps. This is the most important quote from that website
Starting exercise without energy on board in the morning puts the body in a glycogen deficient. The body will attempt to adjust by drawing on other energy stores but it takes time to mobilize those. Meanwhile, you are exercising and losing fluids as well as electrolytes which will also contribute to cramping. By the time NYMXer got something to eat, he was already in a hole and his food and soda didn't lift him out of the hole much. Add in summer heat and humidity and the hole is just deeper.
Basically, eat something before you start riding. Eat something and/or drink while riding. Gatorade does do a great job of replenishing sugar and electrolytes while riding but water is just as important.
I fully understand where NYMXer is coming from. I've experience cramps during a ride and post ride. I often get them while on tour because I haven't been drinking and eating enough while also doing a lot of intense climbing. The worst are quad cramps. It feels like your leg is going to pull your femur into pieces. The worst time to get a quad cramp is when you are crawling into a tent and you are stuck with your body half way in and your legs rigid because it hurts so much. And you can't go and get the Gatorade you need because your legs simply won't work to get you up off the ground.
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Good info cyccommute, thanks. I was hydrating very well and had electrolytes, potassium pills, B vitamins and a quality eGel. In the end, it wasn't enough. So beside aasking here, I did some good ol' interent research and found this
How to Prevent Leg Cramps When Cycling | Tips for Preventing Cramp
I think what I was experiencing yesterday was neuromuscular fatigue. For sure, next long ride on a warm day, I will be better prepared and expect better results.
How to Prevent Leg Cramps When Cycling | Tips for Preventing Cramp
I think what I was experiencing yesterday was neuromuscular fatigue. For sure, next long ride on a warm day, I will be better prepared and expect better results.
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Some new research on cramps - the theory being they are caused by the nervous system.
A New Way to Prevent Muscle Cramps - WSJ
A New Way to Prevent Muscle Cramps - WSJ
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I think that what you are saying is true for the majority of people. However, if what he did (starting out fasted) is his norm and the ride was within his norm, then the cramps were probably caused by something else. The soda is a change and some people react poorly to soda. Also, it could be related to what he ate the night before (if it was outside his norm).
Oooh, good points. I don't recall what I had the night before as I have never selected my dinner based on a ride the next day. The long ride was not out of character for me, as was the climbing. It was not particularly hot (80's) and we had many rests and cooling breezes along the way. The pace was very relaxed for my normal speeds too.
I really think this is related to the soda some how, as I am not a soda drinker. Why I chose it yesterday is a mystery to me but it just seemed so right at the time. The only thing outside my normal riding routine was the soda but the link I post above describing neuromuscular fatigue makes a lot of sense to me.
I think that the real conclusion is a combination of many factors but ultimately muscle fatigue from a long and climbing type of ride in warm weather that my 230 pound and 58 year old body just was telling me "enough already".
Little does it now that we are going on a club ride for about 25 fast miles this evening, lol. I am hydrating today and taking in minerals too. Fingers crossed and hoping for the best!
Does anyone have a clue about the headshake of the front wheel?
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WSJ article is interesting but still in the anecdotal stage. Drinking a pepper shake during a ride is not my idea
of a solution. OTOH it has been more than 10 yrs since I had leg cramps. I never ride fasting after one brief
experiment ~2005 in July when I rode ~20 miles or so early on black coffee only and my blood pressure at
the end of the ride was ~80. FWIW bananas are high fiber sucrose with 7-10 meq of potassium.
of a solution. OTOH it has been more than 10 yrs since I had leg cramps. I never ride fasting after one brief
experiment ~2005 in July when I rode ~20 miles or so early on black coffee only and my blood pressure at
the end of the ride was ~80. FWIW bananas are high fiber sucrose with 7-10 meq of potassium.
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sch, that's what I drink before a morning ride.... 2 cups of black coffee and out I go. I also take a multi vitamin, a B complex and a potassium pill too. My average club ride is two hours long and fast, about 40-42 miles and near 2,000' of climbing involved.
On longer rides (like yesterday), I bring a gel or two and an extra potassium pill. I knew yesterdays ride would be long, but at a relaxed pace with numerous rest stops to accommodate all in the group (only 4 of us).
I had no hint of cramping until about a 1/2 hour after the bakery stop and that soda drink. Someone told me that if you pinch your upper lip (not too hard), the crapping will stop, assuming it is nerve related and not lack of nutrition.
I'm glad that it's all over but I still an determined to figure it all out, since I never cramp but haven't been riding that long either.
On longer rides (like yesterday), I bring a gel or two and an extra potassium pill. I knew yesterdays ride would be long, but at a relaxed pace with numerous rest stops to accommodate all in the group (only 4 of us).
I had no hint of cramping until about a 1/2 hour after the bakery stop and that soda drink. Someone told me that if you pinch your upper lip (not too hard), the crapping will stop, assuming it is nerve related and not lack of nutrition.
I'm glad that it's all over but I still an determined to figure it all out, since I never cramp but haven't been riding that long either.
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Another factor to consider is the fat content of the croissant. Trying to digest fats can pull moisture away from the rest of your body as well. Sugars will absorb without much digestion but fats take time and energy to break down.
On longer rides (like yesterday), I bring a gel or two and an extra potassium pill. I knew yesterdays ride would be long, but at a relaxed pace with numerous rest stops to accommodate all in the group (only 4 of us).
I had no hint of cramping until about a 1/2 hour after the bakery stop and that soda drink. Someone told me that if you pinch your upper lip (not too hard), the crapping will stop, assuming it is nerve related and not lack of nutrition.
I'm glad that it's all over but I still an determined to figure it all out, since I never cramp but haven't been riding that long either.
I had no hint of cramping until about a 1/2 hour after the bakery stop and that soda drink. Someone told me that if you pinch your upper lip (not too hard), the crapping will stop, assuming it is nerve related and not lack of nutrition.
I'm glad that it's all over but I still an determined to figure it all out, since I never cramp but haven't been riding that long either.
Something else that the link brings up is pickle juice and hot sauce. Both seem to help alleviate cramps by stimulating certain nerve centers in the mouth and throat. The capsaicin does the work in the hot sauce but I suspect that the acetic acid in pickle juice is what is acting on the nerve centers because pickle juice doesn't necessarily have capsaicin in it.
I wonder if the acidity is what is at work in a "Coke" as well. Not a "cola" but Coca Cola. "Coke" (the brand) has phosphoric acid added to it. Other colas may not. Lots of colas have citric acid...which Mountain Dew has...but that may not be a strong enough acid to tickle those nerve centers.
It's certainly food for thought. This kind of discussion is also why I keep coming back to Bike Forums. It makes me learn stuff
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Bananas, pickle juice, cherry juice, pineapple juice, orange juice & grapefruit juice before riding = no cramps.
Lot's o' potassium in them there things.
Lot's o' potassium in them there things.
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A few cramps when I got home but after a beet salad w apple cider vinegar, they stopped. The odd thing here is that I never cramp up during a ride. Sometimes after a ride and rarely ever night time cramps, unless I have a beer. That seems to bring on night time cramps for me, and night time bathroom trips too, lol.
I really don't think the "soda" was the problem as much as what was in it. A 7-Up or other soda without caffiene might not have caused the problem.
Last thing, on a steep climb, we had a fast decent and for the first time ever, my front tire shimmied violently (about 45 mph). The bike is a Specialized Roubaix and nothing was loose (headset, wheel, etc) but I barely saved myself from a near wreck. That was not a good feeling but I did squeeze the top tube with my knees and shift my weight back and that helped a lot.
Wobble, shimmy, tank-slapper, speed wobble, and death wobble are all words and phrases used to describe a rapid (4–10 Hz) oscillation of primarily just the front end (front wheel, fork, and handlebars). Also involved is the yawing of the rear frame which may contribute to the wobble when too flexible.[74] This instability occurs mostly at high speed and is similar to that experienced by shopping cart wheels, airplane landing gear, and automobile front wheels.[9][11] While wobble or shimmy can be easily remedied by adjusting speed, position, or grip on the handlebar, it can be fatal if left uncontrolled.[75]
Wobble or shimmy begins when some otherwise minor irregularity, such as fork asymmetry,[76] accelerates the wheel to one side. The restoring force is applied in phase with the progress of the irregularity, and the wheel turns to the other side where the process is repeated. If there is insufficient damping in the steering the oscillation will increase until system failure occurs. The oscillation frequency can be changed by changing the forward speed, making the bike stiffer or lighter, or increasing the stiffness of the steering, of which the rider is a main component.
Wobble or shimmy begins when some otherwise minor irregularity, such as fork asymmetry,[76] accelerates the wheel to one side. The restoring force is applied in phase with the progress of the irregularity, and the wheel turns to the other side where the process is repeated. If there is insufficient damping in the steering the oscillation will increase until system failure occurs. The oscillation frequency can be changed by changing the forward speed, making the bike stiffer or lighter, or increasing the stiffness of the steering, of which the rider is a main component.
And, no, steel bikes aren't immune from a death wobble nor are carbon bikes prone to it.
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While that is why I started this thread and shared my concerns with the members here, as you can see.... not all agree.
You raise some points worth looking into because I do not want that to happen again. Just remember what I have posted so far...... all the pre-ride coffee, going out fasted, etc is part of my normal routine and has nver been an issue for me since I've started cycling 11 months ago.
So I am looking for something unusual but it looks to me like neuromuscular fatigue more than hydration or electrolyte but quite possibly all of the above. Thought maybe others here had similar situations and a way of dealing with it.
Good reading for sure, except for trailangel's angry post. Maybe he is having cramps, the monthly kind?
#21
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I think the root cause here is trying to ride 60+ miles while starting fasted. By the time you stopped to eat/drink, your stores were depleted, and what/how much you ate mattered little. I personally won't do a fasted ride over 30 miles or so-- but I do those 30 miles at a significantly faster pace. If I'm setting out to do 60 or 100, I make sure to eat before, because I'm really bad about eating during. My last imperial century was done on two Clif bars and an ice cream cone (at mile 90.)
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I don't think I was dehydrated in any way as I did need to stop twice for a "nature break", but the urine was bright yellow. I took a B complex before the ride and that makes you pee a bright yellow, almost neon yellow urine.
Thanks for the input. Care to explain the "Dr Isotope" moniker, via PM?
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I only experience leg cramp at the beginning of year where I did not touch the bike whole winter . I only have a banana , double shot of espresso coffee before each ride which last from 3.5 to 4 hours . I used Hammer perpetuem , endurolytes on every ride and no cramp so far .
#24
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I often climb a lot but have only gotten cramps once, and that was on a very hilly (14,000+ feet of climbing) double century.
That said, I always eat before a ride, usually a large breakfast and then add Perpetuem for quick on-the-bike nutrition (the flavor I like, Café Latte, has caffeine) and whether it's an organized ride of just a training ride, I usually drink sodas, most often Coke.
Other friends who do get cramps have used pickle juice or mustard packets to relieve cramps. Maybe vinegar is the common ingredient that gets rid of cramps! Maybe.
Here's a sample of a ride I did recently: https://www.strava.com/activities/630257808
I have gotten "speed wobble" on occasional (thankfully rare) fast descents but your method of putting your knees against the top tube has always worked for me. And yes, I've experienced it on steel, aluminum, titanium and carbon bikes.
That said, I always eat before a ride, usually a large breakfast and then add Perpetuem for quick on-the-bike nutrition (the flavor I like, Café Latte, has caffeine) and whether it's an organized ride of just a training ride, I usually drink sodas, most often Coke.
Other friends who do get cramps have used pickle juice or mustard packets to relieve cramps. Maybe vinegar is the common ingredient that gets rid of cramps! Maybe.
Here's a sample of a ride I did recently: https://www.strava.com/activities/630257808
I have gotten "speed wobble" on occasional (thankfully rare) fast descents but your method of putting your knees against the top tube has always worked for me. And yes, I've experienced it on steel, aluminum, titanium and carbon bikes.