The B-17 Blues
08-18-09 | 09:34 PM
#26
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Like I said different strokes. But what I take is you discovered right away the SMP wasn’t for you? You didn’t have to get the oil from an unborn She Mountain goat and slather it on the saddle and then ride in the sun for no less than 500 days straight with body sweat forming the saddle into some magic cure before you decided it wasn’t for you? I know legitimate cyclists aren’t going to question you on why you decide not to ride a Brooks but the constant mantra Brooks zealots use is they have the special way to break in the saddle so it can fix whatever problem you are having with it. No other saddle group is like that. Not SMP riders anyway.
...
Just as an unscientific observation Brooks isn’t very well represented in club rides in our area. I would think there has to be a reason. In my case it was the weight and speculative break in period.
What are saddle you riding now?
There is a great article in Bicycling for September. It is called "Saddle Problems Sloved." The guy tries just about every saddle you can imagine it says there is no perfect saddle for everyone. Not even Brooks.
...
Just as an unscientific observation Brooks isn’t very well represented in club rides in our area. I would think there has to be a reason. In my case it was the weight and speculative break in period.
What are saddle you riding now?
There is a great article in Bicycling for September. It is called "Saddle Problems Sloved." The guy tries just about every saddle you can imagine it says there is no perfect saddle for everyone. Not even Brooks.
08-18-09 | 09:42 PM
#27
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
I think it's some kind of conspiracy. You either love the B 17 or you hate it. No in between. Makes me think the people who love the saddle are the same ones in Boy Scout camp trying to get you out on a Snipe hunt, or go see the camp cook for a smoke shifter. What only 200 miles? You need another 1000 miles of misery till it becomes cloud 9. And if it still doesn't break in, wipe it down with used motor oil. Sad to say I fell for it. Never tried so hard to get a miserable saddle to work. But when I got to be so sore I couldn't walk, off to ebay it went. Count me in it's a butt hatchet column.
08-18-09 | 09:51 PM
#28
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From: Southern california
Bikes: Lapierre CF Sensium 400. Jamis Ventura Sport. Trek 800. Giant Cypress.
When you like them, you like them--- and they need no breaking in, just small tweaks to the initial installation. I'm sorry your B-17 did not work out for you. Go over to C&V and post it for sale and you should be able to recoup your investment rather quickly.
The "something else" is most likely the weight of a Brooks. Even the titanium framed Swift (maybe the lightest Brooks), tips the scales too much for weight weenies. Any of the steel frame and copper riveted models weigh in at 50-75% more then the Swift. When you don't really care about weight, the difference is no big deal. For me style and comfort trump weight.
The "something else" is most likely the weight of a Brooks. Even the titanium framed Swift (maybe the lightest Brooks), tips the scales too much for weight weenies. Any of the steel frame and copper riveted models weigh in at 50-75% more then the Swift. When you don't really care about weight, the difference is no big deal. For me style and comfort trump weight.
But that being said there never seems to be a forum asking about comfort when someone doesn’t come up with “get a Brooks and you will feel nirvana”. It was on a forum on finding unpadded shorts of all things. We even had a Brooks journal talking about the break in period and going on for 1000 miles. In today’s cycling environment once you are broken in to riding there is no reason to break in a saddle and it seems like some Brooks owners are evangelists. Not all, I agree, but how many have posted here on using oil and a hair dryer to “fix” a problem or help break a saddle in? There are simply too many quality saddles out there to have to spend time fixing something that should come from the factory ready to use. For those that can ride a brooks right out of the box, good for them and they have a legitimate excuse for suggesting them to someone else. I just don’t see why anyone should have to break in a saddle when they should be designing a saddle that is good from day one. That may just be me.
08-18-09 | 09:54 PM
#29
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From: Southern california
Bikes: Lapierre CF Sensium 400. Jamis Ventura Sport. Trek 800. Giant Cypress.
08-18-09 | 10:07 PM
#30
Proxymoron
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Austin, TX
Bikes: Jamis Coda Sport, Marin Muirwoods
It`s true that there`s no such thing as the perfect saddle, and also true that with Brooks you either really like `em or you really don`t. I tried both a B-17 Standard and a B-17 Narrow and found them to be excruciating. They just didn`t work for me. Got a Koobi Enduro, mounted it about 11 cm below my PBH, centered it on the rails then set it level, and that was it. It was The One for me and I wouldn`t ride anything else. But, it could just as well be someone else`s ass-hatchet.
08-18-09 | 10:30 PM
#32
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Old Fart Racing
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From: Draper UT
Bikes: 2015 Trek Domane 6.9 disc D/A Di2
08-18-09 | 10:52 PM
#33
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From: Southern california
Bikes: Lapierre CF Sensium 400. Jamis Ventura Sport. Trek 800. Giant Cypress.
I am a bit surprised. Most of the Madone and Tarmac S works riders I know are pretty happy about the weight savings of their bike. I ride with people that will change out 105 Cranks and Shifters for Ultegra or Dura Ace just to save a few grams. Still you are not unusual in your first impression of the Brooks. You didn’t do anything wrong. Some like them and some don’t but it seems as if there is passion on this subject as much if not more than any other.
08-18-09 | 10:56 PM
#34
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Old Fart Racing
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From: Draper UT
Bikes: 2015 Trek Domane 6.9 disc D/A Di2
I am a bit surprised. Most of the Madone and Tarmac S works riders I know are pretty happy about the weight savings of their bike. I ride with people that will change out 105 Cranks and Shifters for Ultegra or Dura Ace just to save a few grams. Still you are not unusual in your first impression of the Brooks. You didn’t do anything wrong. Some like them and some don’t but it seems as if there is passion on this subject as much if not more than any other.
I pretty sure that's where the biggest weight savings will lie. 
08-19-09 | 12:27 AM
#35
just keep riding
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From: Milledgeville, Georgia
Bikes: 2018 Black Mountain Cycles MCD,2017 Advocate Cycles Seldom Seen Drop Bar, 2017 Niner Jet 9 Alloy, 2015 Zukas custom road, 2003 KHS Milano Tandem, 1986 Nishiki Cadence rigid MTB, 1980ish Fuji S-12S
But that being said there never seems to be a forum asking about comfort when someone doesn’t come up with “get a Brooks and you will feel nirvana”. It was on a forum on finding unpadded shorts of all things. We even had a Brooks journal talking about the break in period and going on for 1000 miles. In today’s cycling environment once you are broken in to riding there is no reason to break in a saddle and it seems like some Brooks owners are evangelists. Not all, I agree, but how many have posted here on using oil and a hair dryer to “fix” a problem or help break a saddle in? There are simply too many quality saddles out there to have to spend time fixing something that should come from the factory ready to use. For those that can ride a brooks right out of the box, good for them and they have a legitimate excuse for suggesting them to someone else. I just don’t see why anyone should have to break in a saddle when they should be designing a saddle that is good from day one. That may just be me.
08-19-09 | 03:59 AM
#36
370H-SSV-0773H
Joined: May 2005
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From: Penniless Park, Fla.
Bikes: Merlin Fortius, Specialized Crossroads & Rockhopper, Serotta Fierte, Pedal Force RS2
when (and if) i ever sell any of my bikes, i'll pull my Brooks saddle off and re-install the OEM saddle...
(i could never use someone else's worn saddle anyway - that grosses me out, kinda like dudes trading underwear around the camp site)
08-19-09 | 06:58 AM
#37
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From: Nags Head NC
Bikes: Cannondale Synapse
This subject should be banned. Doesn't seem possible to get through to some people that saddle needs are unique for each individual. No saddle is a universal fit for everyone including the Selle Anatomica!
08-19-09 | 07:22 AM
#38
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From: Tallahassee, FL
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I am not a Brooks fan. I found the one that I owned OK comfort wise when new, but I hated it after a year of "breaking in". It wasn't anything special to start with, got worse over time, and was too heavy to boot.
I find the obsession with Brooks saddles on BF more than a little weird since on organized rides like centuries that I have been on they are a tiny minority. Also I met a lot of tourists when riding the Trans America and pretty much all of them were using something else. Yet read on the BF touring forum and you would think all or at least most tourists used them.
I find the obsession with Brooks saddles on BF more than a little weird since on organized rides like centuries that I have been on they are a tiny minority. Also I met a lot of tourists when riding the Trans America and pretty much all of them were using something else. Yet read on the BF touring forum and you would think all or at least most tourists used them.
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Pete in Tallahassee
Check out my profile, articles, and trip journals at:
https:/www.crazyguyonabike.com/staehpj1
08-19-09 | 07:53 AM
#39
Banned.
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From: Southern california
Bikes: Lapierre CF Sensium 400. Jamis Ventura Sport. Trek 800. Giant Cypress.
BD I have no problem with people that can enjoy their brooks right out of the box. I have never made a post that did. I have a problem with the multiple suggestions by Brooks zealots, not you, on how to fix a Brooks that doesn’t meet the standards a person was expecting. I can accept telling people about proper adjustment for a particular saddle. Some have to be level and it seems as if some have to be slightly nose up and some nose down. But no one else jumps in and tries to convince a fellow cyclist that the problem is their fault for not breaking in their saddle correctly other than Brooks advocates.
It is like any other saddle, if it doesn’t fit try another. There are simply too many choices out there to suffer 500 to 1000 miles of Perineum discomfort just to have a leather saddle. That moves from a suggestion to a cult following. If it doesn’t cause that discomfort then it is a reasonable saddle and should be considered but if it does, people should just move on to something else. Once again in my opinion. There was a time people had to break in shoes, but there is no reason for that today even with leather. The shoe should start out comfortable and maybe get more so but not start painful and get reasonable. Same with a Saddle. That is my point.
It is like any other saddle, if it doesn’t fit try another. There are simply too many choices out there to suffer 500 to 1000 miles of Perineum discomfort just to have a leather saddle. That moves from a suggestion to a cult following. If it doesn’t cause that discomfort then it is a reasonable saddle and should be considered but if it does, people should just move on to something else. Once again in my opinion. There was a time people had to break in shoes, but there is no reason for that today even with leather. The shoe should start out comfortable and maybe get more so but not start painful and get reasonable. Same with a Saddle. That is my point.
08-19-09 | 08:17 AM
#40
Version 7.0
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: SoCa
Bikes: Road, Track, TT and Gravel
Like I said different strokes. But what I take is you discovered right away the SMP wasn’t for you? You didn’t have to get the oil from an unborn She Mountain goat and slather it on the saddle and then ride in the sun for no less than 500 days straight with body sweat forming the saddle into some magic cure before you decided it wasn’t for you? I know legitimate cyclists aren’t going to question you on why you decide not to ride a Brooks but the constant mantra Brooks zealots use is they have the special way to break in the saddle so it can fix whatever problem you are having with it. No other saddle group is like that. Not SMP riders anyway.
I got the one with a bit of padding not the CF. A very good friend of mine got the SMP CF saddle and he only lasted a week. The thing was about as light as petrified smoke but hard as a rock. I tried several different SMPs before I got the Glider but that is because I believe you have to try before you buy. But my problem wasn't with sit bones and the SMP solved the other problem. There was some other saddles that might have worked I agree and they all had a missing section where the perineum is affected. I had decided one prerequisite for any new saddle would be it can’t bother that area at all and cut out saddles became a main focus. I don’t jump in and sing the praises of the saddle like some do however. Just that is was the solution for me. Specialized has had a lot of success with some of their road saddles as well. And all were designed to address the concerns raised by perineum pressure.
Just as an unscientific observation Brooks isn’t very well represented in club rides in our area. I would think there has to be a reason. In my case it was the weight and speculative break in period.
What are saddle you riding now?
There is a great article in Bicycling for September. It is called "Saddle Problems Sloved." The guy tries just about every saddle you can imagine it says there is no perfect saddle for everyone. Not even Brooks.
I got the one with a bit of padding not the CF. A very good friend of mine got the SMP CF saddle and he only lasted a week. The thing was about as light as petrified smoke but hard as a rock. I tried several different SMPs before I got the Glider but that is because I believe you have to try before you buy. But my problem wasn't with sit bones and the SMP solved the other problem. There was some other saddles that might have worked I agree and they all had a missing section where the perineum is affected. I had decided one prerequisite for any new saddle would be it can’t bother that area at all and cut out saddles became a main focus. I don’t jump in and sing the praises of the saddle like some do however. Just that is was the solution for me. Specialized has had a lot of success with some of their road saddles as well. And all were designed to address the concerns raised by perineum pressure.
Just as an unscientific observation Brooks isn’t very well represented in club rides in our area. I would think there has to be a reason. In my case it was the weight and speculative break in period.
What are saddle you riding now?
There is a great article in Bicycling for September. It is called "Saddle Problems Sloved." The guy tries just about every saddle you can imagine it says there is no perfect saddle for everyone. Not even Brooks.
I tried two versions of the SMP - "lighter" one and the most padded. The more padded one weighed about 330 gm and was okay for a short time. It did not knock my socks off and at that weight, not a value proposition for me.
I ride the "total" Fred Bontrager lux that came with my Madone on the tandem, road and TT bikes. On the track bike I use a Fizik Alliante. The most feared man on the earth, my urologist, suggested that I get a saddle with hole in it. So I am trying different ones with more gel plus hole.
I like the Fizik and with PI pro bib shorts can use it for 40 to 50 miles with no problem. However, with my Voler team kit, it is too hard for me - boney sit bones.
I think the seat to bar drop has a lot to do with which saddle will work as well as good old fashioned genetics that determine ones structure and tolerance to different saddles.
Last edited by Hermes; 08-19-09 at 09:09 AM.
08-19-09 | 08:28 AM
#41
just keep riding
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Milledgeville, Georgia
Bikes: 2018 Black Mountain Cycles MCD,2017 Advocate Cycles Seldom Seen Drop Bar, 2017 Niner Jet 9 Alloy, 2015 Zukas custom road, 2003 KHS Milano Tandem, 1986 Nishiki Cadence rigid MTB, 1980ish Fuji S-12S
Robert,
My only problem with that is that for some people, a little patience and breaking in does reward them with a very comfortable saddle. I understand that most of us are accustomed to instant gratification and that taking the time to work with something to make it function properly is not desirable, especially since there is no guarantee that it will work. It takes patience and some luck to reap the reward of Brooks bliss. Many will never attain it.
Personally, I would not endure 500 to 1000 miles of real discomfort before trying something else. There are many other choices. Fortunately, that was not necessary for me. I have never ridden on a Brooks saddle that was severely uncomfortable. All three of mine were at least pretty good from the first ride and were very good within a few hundred miles. Still hard as a rock, mind you, but very comfortable. After thousands of miles they just keep getting better and better. Some people have to work with them for a while to get comfortable. Others never get there no matter what they do and for how long. It is up to each individual to decide whether they want to try one and how much effort they are willing to put into trying to make it work.
My only problem with that is that for some people, a little patience and breaking in does reward them with a very comfortable saddle. I understand that most of us are accustomed to instant gratification and that taking the time to work with something to make it function properly is not desirable, especially since there is no guarantee that it will work. It takes patience and some luck to reap the reward of Brooks bliss. Many will never attain it.
Personally, I would not endure 500 to 1000 miles of real discomfort before trying something else. There are many other choices. Fortunately, that was not necessary for me. I have never ridden on a Brooks saddle that was severely uncomfortable. All three of mine were at least pretty good from the first ride and were very good within a few hundred miles. Still hard as a rock, mind you, but very comfortable. After thousands of miles they just keep getting better and better. Some people have to work with them for a while to get comfortable. Others never get there no matter what they do and for how long. It is up to each individual to decide whether they want to try one and how much effort they are willing to put into trying to make it work.
Last edited by BluesDawg; 08-19-09 at 08:37 AM.
08-19-09 | 09:17 AM
#42
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Joined: Oct 2007
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From: SW Florida The Everglades
Bikes: Rivendell Chevoit and a Panasonic 1986 7500 MTB
Before you hang it up for good consider sending it to Selle Anatomica and having it cut out. The Brooks should be tilted up for many riders. How do you post a photo here?
08-19-09 | 09:18 AM
#43
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Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Northern Nevada
Butts are all different. I don't use anything BUT B-17s (got them on three bikes) after trying maybe 25 different saddles in nearly 40 years of cycling. I can stay on the bike for three or four hours without discomfort, something I've never been able to do on another saddle. But I have friends who've given up on them (that's how I got my last saddle, from a guy who hated it).
FWIW, a tiny amount of tilt seems to make a difference. Measure from the top tube to the tip of the saddle, then try adjusting that in tiny increments, just a millimeter or two. Don't try to eyeball it; use a ruler. Mine are very slightly nose up.
Do you have the heavy leather version, or the standard, thinner one? In general I think break-in problems with Brooks are exaggerated (mine felt fine right out of the box), but the thick ones do need awhile longer to accommodate your sit bones.
Don't overtreat them in hopes of softening them, by the way. Grant Petersen at Rivendell says Brooks recommends a THIN coat of Proofhide (Brooks' proprietary leather treatment) only once or at most twice a year. My oldest saddle is going on 20, and it's had much less than that. Still looks and feels fine.
FWIW, a tiny amount of tilt seems to make a difference. Measure from the top tube to the tip of the saddle, then try adjusting that in tiny increments, just a millimeter or two. Don't try to eyeball it; use a ruler. Mine are very slightly nose up.
Do you have the heavy leather version, or the standard, thinner one? In general I think break-in problems with Brooks are exaggerated (mine felt fine right out of the box), but the thick ones do need awhile longer to accommodate your sit bones.
Don't overtreat them in hopes of softening them, by the way. Grant Petersen at Rivendell says Brooks recommends a THIN coat of Proofhide (Brooks' proprietary leather treatment) only once or at most twice a year. My oldest saddle is going on 20, and it's had much less than that. Still looks and feels fine.
08-19-09 | 09:40 AM
#44
on by
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From: Wisconsin
Bikes: Bacchetta Giro 20 ATT, Waterford RS-33, Salsa Vaya
08-19-09 | 10:37 AM
#45
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Old Fart Racing
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From: Draper UT
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08-19-09 | 10:51 AM
#46
If you go this route you need to be more than "pretty good". I attempted such a retrofix on a Brooks Team Pro, and it's not as simple or easy as it looks.
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A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. - S. Wright
Favorite rides in the stable: Indy Fab CJ Ti - Colnago MXL - S-Works Roubaix - Habanero Team Issue - Jamis Eclipse carbon/831
08-19-09 | 11:05 AM
#47
Junior Member
Joined: May 2005
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From: Sacramento
Bikes: 2004 Specialized Sirrus
I bought one a few months back for my Roubaix and finally have a seat I can ride. I don't care if it's a half pound heavier, it's comfortable for me. I tried a few others and ass-hatchet doesn't begin to describe the feel. Some will like, some won't.
There's an ass for every seat, and a seat for every ass. Just need to find what works for you.
There's an ass for every seat, and a seat for every ass. Just need to find what works for you.
08-19-09 | 11:11 AM
#48
on by
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Wisconsin
Bikes: Bacchetta Giro 20 ATT, Waterford RS-33, Salsa Vaya
Here's a pic of a modified Brooks TI B17 from another forum, it's been cut and laced. It appears to have the SA cutout, but no laminate.
08-19-09 | 01:29 PM
#49
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From: St Peters, Missouri
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
08-19-09 | 01:48 PM
#50
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 207
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From: SW Florida The Everglades
Bikes: Rivendell Chevoit and a Panasonic 1986 7500 MTB
Butts are all different. I don't use anything BUT B-17s (got them on three bikes) after trying maybe 25 different saddles in nearly 40 years of cycling. I can stay on the bike for three or four hours without discomfort, something I've never been able to do on another saddle. But I have friends who've given up on them (that's how I got my last saddle, from a guy who hated it).
FWIW, a tiny amount of tilt seems to make a difference. Measure from the top tube to the tip of the saddle, then try adjusting that in tiny increments, just a millimeter or two. Don't try to eyeball it; use a ruler. Mine are very slightly nose up.
Do you have the heavy leather version, or the standard, thinner one? In general I think break-in problems with Brooks are exaggerated (mine felt fine right out of the box), but the thick ones do need awhile longer to accommodate your sit bones.
Don't overtreat them in hopes of softening them, by the way. Grant Petersen at Rivendell says Brooks recommends a THIN coat of Proofhide (Brooks' proprietary leather treatment) only once or at most twice a year. My oldest saddle is going on 20, and it's had much less than that. Still looks and feels fine.
FWIW, a tiny amount of tilt seems to make a difference. Measure from the top tube to the tip of the saddle, then try adjusting that in tiny increments, just a millimeter or two. Don't try to eyeball it; use a ruler. Mine are very slightly nose up.
Do you have the heavy leather version, or the standard, thinner one? In general I think break-in problems with Brooks are exaggerated (mine felt fine right out of the box), but the thick ones do need awhile longer to accommodate your sit bones.
Don't overtreat them in hopes of softening them, by the way. Grant Petersen at Rivendell says Brooks recommends a THIN coat of Proofhide (Brooks' proprietary leather treatment) only once or at most twice a year. My oldest saddle is going on 20, and it's had much less than that. Still looks and feels fine.
You need to be really, really good with that blade and Dremel. Just MHO.