The 50+ forum was established with the following statement of purpose:

"Share the victories, challenges, successes and special concerns of bicyclists 50 and older. Especially useful for those entering or reentering bicycling."

As it evolved, it became a very supportive group - especially in the areas of life where some of us find our bodies doing things we don't like or appreciate as we get older. Like it or not, our bodies do wear out. and discussing these issues and finding our way through them is in no way shameful or bad. Deny them as we like, they happen.

We have had folks successfully (and some not) battle cancer, and the 50+ group has been most supportive and caring. Some folks, such as me, have gone through various battles and skirmishes. In my case, Trigeminal Neuralgia, atrial fibrillation, and most recently, some severe excruciating pain caused by spondolythesis and a bulging disc.

Being able to discuss these concerns, and find other's solutions and support, in a kind, gentle and caring way, has been immensely valuable to me - and I hope others. I appeciate all the great feedback and positive attitude I have received, and it has been great being able to share these concerns as a sort of release.

The 50+ forum has not been characterized as an argumentative, "put down" type of forum. Sometimes we get folks reaching 50+ coming here from other forums or just joining who want to bring some of that antagonism and "got you" attitude here. They generally don't last long, or else they change a bit.

Have I been guilty of some of that attitude over the years? You betcha. But, each time I have, I regret it, and generally I apologize or try and change a bit.

We also have had some of the absolutely best and most clever writing I have ever read. I remember particularly the "Diegos" - a classic where someone - and I know who - built a whole character base of over 50 imaginary "Diegos" who were interacting with each other with remarkable characterization and appropriate differences in style. I am sorry the mods shut that down, but it was great while it lasted.

So, this is a plea for a kind and gentle forum. Life is too short, and we have too few years left, to spend our time in wasted effort arguing and showing off our (now diminishing) testosterone levels.

Thank you for your efforts in having this sub forum created in the first place, and your ongoing efforts to keep it on track.

I must agree whole-heartedly with Dnvr. Fifty plus is a great forum with helpful and friendly members. And some nice looking bikes too.

Well said

As a relative newcomer to these forums I would like to express how much I have enjoyed the interplay I have found here and I especially have enjoyed the virtual companionship here in 50+ forum.

It may be that I am very insensitive, imperceptive or just missed some of the recent interplay that has brought about the creation of this thread and a couple of others. I have wondered "what caused that?"

I enjoy differences of opinion between thoughtful intelligent people. Civil debate is one of the great hallmarks of a vibrant society. Sometimes my belief or perception can be changed by a well reasoned and delivered argument. Sometimes not.

It seems that many people today are very inflexible in their perceptions and beliefs. To allow an opinion that clashes with their own is an anathema and must be shouted down. I see this at too many levels of social and political discourse.

This is a forum. It is open to all that care to join in the discussion. There are moderators to maintain a civil discourse and keep the topics within the bounds of the sub-forum. One must be prepared to be disagreed with and one must consider the source. Sometimes a response contrary to one's own opinion or belief is worth considering and making a feeling response. Sometimes that source is not worth ones investment of intellect and emotion and should be ignored. Trust me, if your opinion is more correct the democracy of the forum will prove your point.

If your feelings are easily offended the internet can be a dangerous place and perhaps one should choose to not participate. That is a valid response.

My reasoned opinion is some folks should just lighten up and learn about the "ignore" feature.

If I have to start using the ignore feature here, I am probably on my way out. So I am in agreement with Denver on that a high norm of civility should be maintained here. I have argued my own point of view assertively a couple of times here but have tried to avoid direct insult (a la road forum) or, just as important, implied insult.

The latter is the thing we need to be very careful about, IMO. No matter how superior one's reasoning power, experience, or knowledge of cycling may be there is a time to state your point and then just move on.

[QUOTE=ahsposo;10951610]As a relative newcomer to these forums

Yes, in fact your are a relative newcomer.

It may be that I am very insensitive, imperceptive or just missed some of the recent interplay that has brought about the creation of this thread and a couple of others. I have wondered "what caused that?"

It should not surprise you that as a newcomer you might miss some of the subtleties of the 50+ forum.

Civil debate is one of the great hallmarks of a vibrant society.

While I am aware of societies where this is not the case, I'll generally accept your comment. However, it is not the only hallmark of a vibrant society. By its very nature debate is adversarial. It is the intensity with which debate occurs that, IMO, signals the intent of the participants. In my experience the 50+ forum stands above others, because individuals recognized the importance of staying connected and building productive relationships instead of winning of proving themselves, right, superior, smarter, etc. Hence, the adversarial element has always been toned down or reeled in when the risk of damaging relationships occur.

It seems that many people today are very inflexible in their perceptions and beliefs. To allow an opinion that clashes with their own is an anathema and must be shouted down. I see this at too many levels of social and political discourse.

I'll take this an an indication that there is some agreement with portions of my previous statement.

Trust me, if your opinion is more correct the democracy of the forum will prove your point.

I suggest that a forum such as this is not a democracy. It is, in fact, controlled to a greater or lesser extent by the moderators and forum administrator(s). Yet what concerns me more about this comment is the "prove your point" element. As Denver so eloquently stated, that has not been the purpose of this particular forum.

If your feelings are easily offended the internet can be a dangerous place and perhaps one should choose to not participate.

Or... perhaps if you do not get the level of civil debate (with whatever intensity you seek) on the 50+ forum it would be best to seek a place more in harmony with your desires. While all are welcome, I don't think it's a stretch to say that many who have been regular contributors for some length of time, understand the subtleties of the 50+ forum, and this is a large part of what keeps them coming back.

Perhaps when we are new here,we are so used to the garbage on the other forums that we are ready to get our backs up over things that were not intended to get us going. This forum is different.
Case in point:when i was fairly new here Bengeboy from Seattle made a comment about us Canadians being" commie socialists"or something like that which i took slight offense too. (Im quite right of center). I realized too late that it was meant in jest and said something back. Typically as a longer time member he was kind enough to let it slide.
Having said that and now knowing most of the contributers here (virtually) i would now see it as it was intended as being, just a friendly jab. Cause most often on this forum nobody is trying to make any points,we are just having fun.
And i do understand if someone says they've had enough for awhile and need a break, as all forums can get a little intense after awhile. Or at least for a cranky old fart like me.

The 50+ and the Touring Forums are the only places I can participate in discussions about cycling. I enjoy the variety of topics and opinions. I haven't noticed much nastiness and vituperation in the posts and hope that the open discussion format remains as open and as civil as it is. An occasional mean-spirited comment my surface but can usually be ignored into oblivion.

I'm a little bit in the middle here. I agree rational disagreement is one thing and personal attack and insult are another. The latter has no place here. However, while I have seen failed attempts at humor which can easily be mistaken for personal attack, I have seen little, if any,of what I consider actual personal attack. I think these threads have to be read with a little bit of a thick skin and a willingness to give others the benefit of the doubt regarding their intentions. As I said in another thread, it's easy enough to ignore posts/posters that have no redeeming qualities. If someone is truly offensive, ignoring them is the best remedy. I visit this forum for information, encouragement and entertainment. I would hate to see the forum become so politically correct that the entertainment value is lost.

Dan

I'm always vigilant about protecting the entire Puget Sound Region from the Red Menace of the North.

Thanks DF - good timing as we have a lot of fresh faces. One thing those of us who have been around awhile should avoid is making those fresh faces feel like they are less important than the old faces, this is not a clique.

What has irked me most is not that folks have opinions that differ from mine, that's fine but it is when those opinions are stated as fact or when one individual believes that their experience is equally applicable to the rest of the general population, a sample of one does not make a trend. I want to hear peoples opinion or feelings but I would like them to simply state that that's what they are and when other have different opinions than they should be equally respected and disclosed. A simple IMHO goes a long way. Also, and this irks me too, when people post the work of others as if it is their own revelation (or experience), if you found the material somewhere, provide your source so we can all learn, this will gain you more respect than trying to be the fountain of all knowledge (just googled on the internet) and it will allow others to further research the topic as well as giving credit where credit is due. These are good guidelines for all of us, new and old and ones I have been trying (but not always executed I must confess) to follow and will make this place a much better community IMHO.

In these simple suggestions I hope I have not offended.

Thanks Dnvr, well stated.

Umm, on a lighter note, I'm tone deaf and my life has no purpose....but can I still stick around anyway?

Not hardly. Please be sticky, we need some glue around here!

There are two types of posts that really get my goat (and I have no goat, so it seems rather pointless but...).

1. Direct personal attacks. I don't mean the "you're an ignorant old fool" type, because, well, I AM getting up in years, but the "you are a member of the KKK because I don't like your political philosophy" kind of thing. Fortunately, the worst offenders have moved on, at least for now.

2. The "I read through the last 200 posts on this thread and every single one of them sucked" type. That makes as much sense to me as saying "I had my next door neighbor kick me five times in the junk, and I never really got used to it". Some of the seemingly most pointless threads are often the most amusing, like the "I was attacked by a chipmunk" thread. It made me feel better about honestly thinking a box turtle was going to chase me down while I was riding about two weeks ago. But hypoglycemia and skipping your meds for the day can do that to you.

Some of us that have been around on the forum for a few years- have stayed because the ideals that DnvrFox stated are the main stay of this group.

Couple of times- and once very recently- I have avoided Bike Forums.net due to the attitude of a few that wish to bring an aggressive side to the forums in general. Unfortunately- The aggresive side can get a bit more forcefull and can offend.

But behind it all- there is a base-a sound base- that brings the 50+ back to being somewhere that I wish to be part of.

A nice point. Speaking as a newcomer who as far as I know hasn't (yet?) said anything to offend anyone, threads like this just make me want to move along to another forum, since they seem to say very clearly "there's a few of us who have been here a long time who like what we like, and anything that doesn't accord with our expectations isn't welcome." OK. There are other places to post.

Let me know when you find a forum over a couple of years old that does not have folks who have been there a long time, and who like what they like..

As far as "accord with our expectations" - all forums in my experience have cultures.

Personally, I think that most of the existing crowd go way out of their way to try and make new folks feel welcome. Maybe we have dropped off in this aspect. If so, I apologize for myself.

I find that generally folk here on bikeforums are friendlier than a lot of the other forums that I have seen online. I have not seen any of the threads here degenerate into name calling. I have seen a lot of other threads on other forums that didn't take long to turn in to name calling matches.

I don't necessarily disagree with the benefits of a kinder and gentler forum, but my first impression when I started here (must have been five years or so ago) was that too many members were *****footing along waiting to die. I thought it was perhaps TOO kind and gentle. I was in my late 50s at the time, and still able to do most of what I used to be able to do, though at a reduced pace. Some of the "50s" concerns seemed unnecessary--just go do what you can do, and accept that your abilities will decline. It's expected and not worth much discussion.
Karma raised its ugly head a couple of years ago, as karma will do, and now I'm dealing with a couple of chronic, non-life threatening conditions. I've gotten good support from members with similar issues (myasthenia gravis is rare in older males; there aren't many of us out here), and I appreciate their advice. Still, I'd hate to see this turn into a forum where geezers prop each other up. My doctors put me on prednisone and i've gained 30 pounds despite my best efforts...OK, 90 percent of my best efforts...but I'd still rather be called fat@** than have people lining up to sympathize with me and tell me how well I'm doing, "considering."

EDIT: Note to mods: The bleeped word up there is perfectly acceptable in all company, a term beginning with "p," sometimes used to refer to cats, followed by "footing," to indicate tiptoeing or moving cautiously. It is possible to be TOO family-oriented.

YOU'RE A DOPER!

Just kidding. I didn't want the place to get too sedate.

I too have been caught in the filter when my use of a word was innocent and legitimate. It seems especially silly when you can easily get around it and become obscene by changing a letter to a symbol. In fact you can say ass and don't have to say @**which surprised me.

Your post echoes my feelings on this subject fairly closely.

I am 57 and still in good health generally. I value the general tone of support and respect apparent in the forum greatly but tip toeing around a subject is not natural to me. While I am not a "jock" by any stretch I am fairly comfortable in a locker room, virtual or not. I won't sit still for bullies but shrinking violets aren't admirable either.

Fortunately I haven't witnessed really a lot of either in this sub-forum. I don't want to.

But I also don't want this place to become so "polite" that it's bland.

I seriously doubt that will happen.

Anyway, I guess I never said "welcome!" So, "welcome!"

If one wants to get "unblanded" for awhile, post in the road bike forum or the Advocacy and Safety, particularly the VC sub-forum. Every now and then I venture over there for a good "unblanding!"

Years ago, I was fairly active on the roadie forum, but my interests and style seems to diverge more and more from who they are.

But, when I first joined, we had only a few members. It was a big day if 17 folks were online ln the whole BFN, and everyone knew and respected everyone.

D/Fox - thanks for this thread.

I found this forum a couple of years ago and like it - it's civilized.

I plan to stick around, even though I was one of the "bad boys" in the now gone thread.

My apologies to all for that slip but on the whole - this is a nice spot.

Apologizing for yourself is not necessary. Getting over yourself may be something you might consider. 'Bye.