curdog

When pedalling I am pointing my toes down. This is the natural foot position for me. It seems I can get more power in the pedal stroke if my foot is more level. I don't know if there is a way I can train myself to keep the foot more level. Any thoughts?

Paul01

Seat too high ******************************?

David Bierbaum

wear long stiff boots that make it hard to bend your ankle? That won't work of course, if you wear clipless pedals... You might want to see if there are orthotics or braces that hold your foot in the desired position yet can still be worn with bicycling shoes.

Oh, and what he said! If your seat is too high, your foot will drop naturally.

blt

For far too many years, I was pedaling like you. I went to Power Grips and since I had always pedaled that way, I adjusted the straps so my foot would be in that same position. Wasn't til I did a fitting with a new bike that I was told my foot was in the wrong position, I needed to adjust the straps to get my foot in the proper position. Was puzzled as to why I had my foot in the wrong place for decades of riding. With Power Grips holding my foot in the right place, I found it a pretty natural, good feeling adjustment. Then I was on vacation in the hotel fitness room, and rode an excercise bike with no straps. Realized that with my foot in the proper position, I couldn't really keep my foot on the pedal as I spun around. Needed to pedal more with the toes to keep the foot on.

I think your position feels more natural when you don't have something that keeps your foot to the pedal, whether clipless pedals or clips or straps or some combination of shoes and pedals that is sticky enough. Otherwise, if your foot is more level, it is hard to keep the foot on the pedal, it is hard to pedal in a circle.

If you are riding clipless or with clips or straps, the answer should be easy, your foot should be clipped or strapped into the right position, and it will feel natural soon enough. If you are just riding flats with no clips or straps, then find some sticky pedals to help keep the foot on in that position (unless you can get a shoe that will stick enough with pedals that aren't so sticky). If that won't work well enough for you, it may be time to go clipless, or at least to clips or straps of some kind.

I would think that if the seat is too high, then you wouldn't be raising that issue, because you wouldn't really feel you can get more power with a flat foot, but maybe I'm wrong about that, it is at least worth checking on the seat height.

Phil85207

I think bit is on the right path there. At least that's the way I found it to be.

berner

I don't see why pedaling toe down would be a problem. Although I naturally tend toward heel down, I will change it occasionally to use the calf muscles differently. The man in the photo pedals toe down and has done well.

NOS88

"Toe down" is relative. That is, it can be very slightly down as in the photo of Lance, or it can be much more extreme. Here’s a site that does a good explaining the merits of various positions that includes video: https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/...-what-is-best/

There is a danger that one can have tendon inflammation if it is too extreme. I'd probably start with looking at my seat height. Personally, I like the exercise of unclipping, while the bike is in the trainer, and putting my heel on the pedal. If I can't pedal backwards without rocking my hips, I've likely got the seat too high. As it turns out, I’ve spent years dealing with occasional flare ups of the tendons on the right leg. Once I got the seat down a few mm, that all went away. In any event, once I had my seat height adjusted correctly, a pedal stroke with less "toe down" was easy to maintain.

curdog

Right foot appears to be fairly level. Between 12 o'clock and 6 seems to be where most power is generated. Maybe it's just a habit of mine and emphasis on keeping foot llevel will resolve what I consider to be a issue.

Altamont

its called "ankling", ie using your ankles. its perfectly ok to do it. lots of pro do it. if it hurts, quit doing it.

NOS88

I'm aware of what it's called. Lots of pros also take PED's too.

dbg

A trip earlier this summer caused me pain in tendons behind right knee. I purposely pointed toes down to change the load on my calfs. Pain went away by end of day.

(possibly useless post ;-)

oldbobcat

After saddle height, you should probably check cleat angle if you're using clip-in pedals. I've been adjusting my cleats to turn my heels in, in response to other foot alignment issues, and I'm finding that my ankles are more flexible with a bit more heels-in, toes-out.

stapfam

Not something I have ever noted. Saddle is set up for height with the foot flat but I know that seated and uphill I will be heel down as effort is put in and out of the saddle I will be toe down due to forward position of the body. Other than that- I have never thought about what my feet are doing.

curdog

Maybe I'm looking for a silver bullit!

Phil_gretz

I battle a similar problem, riding "toe down" when not really attempting to ankle. I've been riding since the 1970s, and only came to realize this when getting fitted on a road bike back in 2009. She (the fitter) says:

"You need to level your foot."

Me: "What?"

Her: "Your foot is toe down. Bring it to level when you pedal at the lowest part of the stroke."

Me (thinking): "Listen, girlie, I've been riding like this since your parents were in diapers."
Me: "Oh. Okay. I'll try"

Her: "That's better. Try to stay aware of this until you correct it."

And that was the gist of it. Since that day, I'm conscious of foot positioning from time to time and try to relax my foot at the neutral position of the stroke(s). It'll take concentration, but you can do it, too. Good luck.

jim p

Maybe the foot is more level when using clipless pedals because a good pedaling technique is to try to pull the foot like you are trying to scrape mud off the sole of the shoe at the bottom of the stroke. This motion will not work with platform pedals because your foot would just slip off the pedal. So to get this motion to work it might be natural to keep the toes pointed down so that the foot would stay on the pedal.

I don't know what is going on but this is just a thought.

Garfield Cat

I have yet to see any study done on riders with flexible arches, what I call flat feet. On the upstroke, the foot doesn't do much but on the down stroke, the foot does a flexing routine. As we all know, flexing of a frame is not efficient. The power transfer is somehow reduced. I think the same thing for the flexing of the foot. Orthotics try to keep the arch in the arch position. But with a flat footed rider, the arch support does very little when pressure is applied on the down stroke. The arch still collapses and the result is flexing.

The original poster talked about getting more power from the pedal stroke. The article that NOS88 shows doesn't address the arch itself and how it flexes. I have experimented with my particular pedal stroke style. At slow speeds it doesn't matter much. At higher velocities when I want to maintain speeds say above 20 mph, then it does matter. What I do is to cup my arch to keep it stiff so as not to allow it to flex. To do that, I am slightly in a toe down position.

oilman_15106

Exactly, if you watch any pro bike racing you will soon learn that there is no exactly correct foot position. The only way to know if one position is better or worse is to train with a power meter.

If you are having fun and not racing why worry about such minutia?

lhbernhardt

When I first started racing back in the early 70's, two approaches to foot angle were often contrasted in the bike articles of the time. Jacques Anquetil was notable for his "pointed down" style, while Eddy Merckx displayed a very crushing level-footed technique with some heel drop at the front of the stroke. Perhaps the level-footed style is de rigueur these days, but I've seen good riders use both. As long as you've got the saddle set to the correct height (you should be able to rest your heel on the pedal (in stockinged feet) at its furthest position from the saddle (so in-line with the seat tube, NOT at its lowest postiion), but the leg will be completely straight), I would just do what comes naturally. Unless, of course, some muscles start complaining over a period of time.

I would also be disinclined to accept the opinion of fitters unless they can show documented proof behind their assertions. I have seen too many "experts" who know NOTHING!

Luis

Terex

I know a guy who rides like that. I'm 6', he's about 5'8", and we both ride a 56. Maybe it just suits you.

Altamont

Feeling like a weakling?

Hermes

I think there is one but foot position may be manifested by other factors. I have had 3 coaches, attended clinics put on by British coaches and helped by very experience races. And I had a Retul fitting. I have not received any comments on my foot position good or bad. However, for me, riding position to optimize power and aerodynamics results in different foot positions. As a trackie, I tend to point my toes more because I ride in the drops, bend my elbows, slide forward on the nose of the saddle. This causes my body to rotate toward the handlebar making it more aero and requiring me to push through the pedal at the bottom of the stroke.

Climbing as a roadie, I ride more on the back of the saddle and my cadence is lower. The resulting foot position is flatter. So if you capture of picture of me cycling one could come to any conclusion you want about foot position and be focusing on the result of other techniques to increase power.

For me the silver bullet is pedaling. I have a hypothetical that there is an optimal muscle firing sequence - glutes, hamstrings, quads and hip flexors. The calf muscle is only used to stabilize the foot. Trackies seem to develop the best and smoothest pedal stroke and use the muscles in the optimum sequence. Because the track bikes are fixed gear, I have to get my leg out of the way of the pedal as I pull through the down stroke or the pedal will lift my ass up and I have to keep up with the pedal speed since there is not coasting. And when I go at high speed and high cadence, the muscles must all coordinate or I will bounce in the saddle. I think riding the fixed gear develops the optimum sequence and utilization.

Wiggins is a prime example of having great pedal stroke developed in track that he carried over to the road. And of course, there is Cavendish who won a gold medal at Worlds in the track in Madison which is a very fast points race done by teams of two. A man is slung into the sprint from the rail using an arm throw by his parter who then sprints for points.

And finally, at the track, we do not have brakes to slow down, so we have to use the wind, go up track and/or use our legs to modulate speed thus developing even more feel for the optimum pedal stroke. When I ride my road bike after training at the track, many times it feels like anything is possible.

Hermes

As a follow on to my preceding post, it is very old school for pro riders to ride fixie in easy gears on the road at the beginning of their training in the fall working on spin and pedal stroke.

Mobile 155

For me this was a timly thread. NOs88s link was a big help. Last summer we had several Canadians come down and spend some time riding with our group, snow birds, and after a rather vigerous ride one of our regulars, who I admire, and one of to Canadians commented that I wasn't pedaling flat footed and that my saddle must be too high. I assured them that I had a professional fitting with all the lasers and computer graphics that came with it and I was still pretty close to the measurements set by the fitter. They still insisted I was toe down and that I would develope more power with a flat stroke. I went back to the fitter and he insisted my saddle was at the right height. At first I felt that maybe learning to pedal flat and lowering my saddle, even if the fitter assured me it was set correctly, would improve my cycling in a group. Long story short, it didn't work.

After months of forcing my heals down I was slipping backwards in our group rides. Sure I could keep up on long fast runs in the flats but when it came to closing a gap, sprinting and short climbs I was doing worse than I had about two years ago. Subjective some might say but with programs like Strava it was also measurable. Maybe I was just getting older I thought. However about two weeks ago I went back to the measurements on my bike the fitter had made and stopped thinking about where my toes were on my stroke and I am riding more like I did before. Sure I am not the first on a sprint everytime but I am back towards the front. Sure I don't climb with the big dogs on some of the longer climbs but the little dogs are no longer nipping at my feet. And my Strava times are comong back to what they were before. Not one time during the flat pedal stroke lower saddle experiment did I come close to setting a PB on a climb, sprint or local TT. Looking at the Steve Hogg site NOS88 posted let me know that at least for me a natural stroke is slightly toe down and above all relaxed not forced.

qcpmsame 

This thread has made me notice my foot position and how I am ankling now compared with the late 70's and I was riding quill pedals with toe clips and straps, didn't use cleats on my Pietros then. The last few days I have looked, from time to time, at my feel as I pedaled. My feet are staying pretty much board flat now. Very little toe or heel deflection from horizontal. In the 70's I had problems with heel drop while pedaling and I didn't have my feet positioned correctly as far as heel in or heel out. I had several bouts with inside knee pain on the right knee. Now with clipless pedals (Shimano PD 540 SPD-SL) and careful placement of my cleats on my cycling shoes I keep the nice flat plane and the heel is not turning out on me. I do have some free play in the pedals for movement but I am not using it hardly. No knee pain so far since I have started back on the surgeon's release last year.

I'd like to have a fitting when finances allow, probably a Retul, and see how close the LBS and I came on my fitting and set up that is working so nicely. I don't want to change anything ahead of my first metric century in October. I guess the time taken on fitting and setting things up by my LBS and myself when I got riding the new bike in February are worth the efforts.

Bill