While I'm looking for a better shoe to ride with I was wondering if any one here uses any kind of shoe insert while riding, like Dr. Scholl's?

I went riding today and what a difference. I really concentrated on my cadence, keeping it at a minimum of 80 rpm. I rode 9 miles, mainly a loop around the river. I started on the one side that has the bike/walking path which is very level. When I got a feel for the cadence and saw my knees were doing great I started the loop. The other side is mainly roads and hillier. I kept my cadence and kept going without any problems. The only thing that happened was my feet kept moving around on the pedals. I looked at toe clips with and without straps after the ride. I think they would help a lot.
One thing I think that really helped is that I started stretching and strengthening my knees and legs. I have been stretching twice a day and strengthening once (in the afternoon). I figure if I stretch in the morning before work it will help protect my knees during the day, and in the afternoon to relieve the days' stress.
I just started watching the "Strong Knees" dvd and it is helping a lot. I should have been doing this years ago.

I use Superfeet foot beds in my mtb shoes, not in the road shoes, however.

Dr. Scholl's is soft, worthless crap. I have Superfeet green in my hiking boots. In my opinion, if you don't have a foot problem, and wonder if insoles will "improve" anything - no. I wear the best quality socks (Swiftwick), and use the insoles that come with my cycling shoes (Shimano). Most insoles will only absorb energy and take up room. If the volume of your shoes is too big, insoles may help. Good luck.

this is best thing i've ever done for my knees and lower back. Within a week i was walking twice as far and back pain stopped and knees felt better
https://www.vibramfivefingers.com/index.htm
inserts don't help, getting flatfooted does

I just switched to the Specialized inserts for my 6 y.o. Adidas shoes (12-1/2 US sizing,) the old insoles were mashed beyond flat by my gunboat feet. The BG fit guy at our LBS checked my feet out and then used the board with some type of film on it that showed the spots where your foot pressed in and the various differences in the pressure. These have made an old pair of shoes feel new and great again. There are different inserts for the various foot types out, instep height or lack thereof is also considered (I have a very high instep, overly rigid foot.) I recommend these inserts highly, as well as having a person that is familiar with the Specialized systems to help you get the correct ones. Unless you have Rx orthotics I would think these are an optimal choice for some of us.

I cannot stand a bulky insole or sock, feels like every bunch or seam is cutting into my feet. I agree with the good socks though, wool that is correctly loomed and thinner is my first choice but the offerings are getting less and less. I found a Cannondale wool sock at our LBS last year but I understand it was discontinued, that figures, I purchased the only pair they had on the wall in my size. Any recommendations in that area would be appreciated. Sorry for the hijack.

Can you tell us more about the inserts you mentioned Terex?

Bill

https://www.superfeet.com

Easiest thing is to go to an REI or a shoe store that has the full range of Superfeet insoles that you can try on. Lots of info on the web site. A new carbon fiber model is coming out soon that may be most appropriate for road cycling shoes. It's difficult to order these online. You really need to sit down an try on with the shoe you will be using, if possible. The arch will feel odd at first if you've not used insoles before, and if properly fitted, will take a few days to get used to. If properly sized, it will feel like the arch is too far back and sort of under the front of your heel. In most people, this feeling is because they do not have an effective arch in any of their current shoes. I'm sure you can search for additional commentary and advice on the subject.

I have very long toes, so even though I wear a size 11.5, the main part of my foot, including arch location, is effectively that of a smaller foot, so sizing is tricky. Because of my long toes, I also mount my cleats back as far as possible on my shoes.

You might want to consider walking much farther than this on a more regular basis. A friend of mine who moved to Manhattan told me he started developing 'city legs' after walking a lot daily for transportation for a while. I've had the same experience. For a while, all your joints, muscles, and feet get sore from all the walking but after a while they firm up and you can walk longer distances faster without much pain at all.

I have old, cheap, worn-out sneakers that I have been using to ride with so that could be part of the problem I'm having. I am looking at this issue from many different angles to solve it. I have been checking into new shoes for riding, the inserts were just a thought. I need to work on the shoes first. Since you don't put your whole foot on the pedal I can see how inserts may not help much or at all.

Speaking of walking much farther, that's actually why I am riding. I started hiking this summer and bought the bike to go along with that (ride/hike/camp). I have been concentrating on the bike more the last few weeks trying to get it all set up. I walk a lot at work and have to wear steel toed work boots. I think they are part of the problem also. Since I started hiking and riding I have noticed how uncomfortable my cheap work boots feel. I haven't spent a lot on the recently because they get really dirty fast and I couldn't see getting an expensive pair of work boots all messed up. But I think that is going to change soon. I have to keep my feet, legs and knees in shape.
Since I hike and ride some times both in the same day, ride to the hiking area, hike then ride on, I want shoes that will work for both, hence the interest in the inserts and good socks.

Maybe that should be a sport if it isn't already, bike and hike. You could start out biking to the hiking trail (that is a loop), get back on the bike, ride to the next hiking area and so on. I know of some areas around here that would work for that. Maybe I should submit my idea to the city parks. They have marathons and bike races around here in the summer. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thank you Terex, I book marked the website you linked, we don't have an REI here so I'll go to the REI website and look at them there. Much appreciated.

Bill

Bill - Glad to be of help! Also look at the following article and related information. I just came across it when looking for support documentation for my comment on the "numb foot" thread. Hogg talks about Superfeet, and two more orthotics. https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/...-arch-support/

The problem with sneakers, they are made for walking or running, when you walk, your foot flexes at the ball, and the sole of the shoe needs to be flexible in the ball of the foot, so make walking efficient. A cycling specific shoe has a much stiffer sole, so that the pedal contact point can be under the ball of the foot. Clips and straps or cleats are positioned this way, and it means that you can use the ankle as well as the knee in providing power in the stroke.

After several rides with the Specialized insole I am very happy with its effectiveness. The old Adidas insole that came with the shoes was simply worn out and flattened to where it was just taking up a few mm of space. The fitted Specialized arch is specific for someone with high arches like I have and it has done the support job well. It is not overly thick anywhere, a big point with me.

Now to check out the Superfeet insoles that Terex recommends, the insoles are worth the effort to get right, and I fully agree with not using the Dr. Scholls products for cycling, did not work at all, too flimsy, you get what you pay for.

And for the OP, I'll second all calls for getting the bike's fit correct, be it by a professional or your own doing with one of the books or the BF forum, it is worth the effort. I had pain on the inside of my left knee at the patella back in 1979, one of the old guys in our club watched me while riding and took me aside and helped me adjust the seat height and its fore/aft position, a slight lowering and moved a bit forward and it was fantastic. I was sold on a correct fitting right then and there although no one called it that back then.

Bill

qcpmsame (and anyone else who mentioned fit), thanks. The seat height is good, the seat is a little out of level and I'm not sure about fore/aft position. I have been adjusting one thing at a time to see if it works. Getting the fit right and doing the knee stretches/strengthening is helping a lot. I want to see about the Superfeet insoles that Terex recommends also.

Does any one here agree or disagree what this guy says about toe clips https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPI7ZXDVvs ?

I started watching this too, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR5iMj4TofQ.

All the work is paying off. I rode harder today and didn't have any problems with my knees. I rode at a faster pace the whole time, not my usual casual pace, and kept my cadence up the whole time. I figure half of it is just getting used to riding again and the other half making adjustments. I am checking into a new saddle because that's a real problem, mine is not very soft at all.

Some one who took the saddle height a little to seriously.

Sorry, I missed this reply...

A MTB frame has a different geometry than a road bike, for starters the bottom bracket height as measured from the ground is different. You can't just convert imperial to metric. I'm 5'10"-ish and I ride a 54 cm Salsa road frame but ride a 17" Trek MTB frame (which converts to 43 cm), but both bikes have similar standover heights. Which is why I suggested starting with standover height as the initial measurement, over strictly looking at frame sizes.

Got one of those in Asheville, NC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5L8oJWv2U

Three things help with older, well worn knees;

1) Favor riding flat ground. Hills are tough on knees and you can get plenty of workout on flat ground.

2) Stick with the mountain bike just long enough to decide if you are going to keep riding. Then find something else that is better suited to your actual riding. "Pushing" gnarly knobbies puts a lot of stress on your knees. Get a bike that rolls better.

3) Spin the cranks in easier gears. Muscling stiffer gears is definitely out. bk

Does any one here agree or disagree what this guy says about toe clips https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPI7ZXDVvs ?

This guy has zero credentials on the subject matter but rides his bike a lot and is well intentioned. I fall into the same category with the only difference (maybe) that I use USAC cycling certified coaches with a track record of success, I use doctors and therapists that are cyclists and I use a fitter that fits international world champion cyclists, collectively, to get my information which ends up being specific TO ME.

Pedaling circles is potentially flawed. The reason is that the brain may compensate and reduce the downward pressure by the same or greater amount as the upward pull netting less power into the crankset. Some will argue, who have power meters, that the power increases with the addition of the upstroke. That may be true as they remember seeing the power but if they focused all the mental capacity on increasing the down stroke, the power may actually be greater.

What I do is focus all my effort of the down stroke and try to keep my heal in the back of the cycling shoe and drive through the pedal stroke and then just get my leg out of the way. Without positive foot retention, this technique is not possible. Toe clips with cleats or clipless pedals will work. Toe clips without positive engagement of the shoe in the pedal locked down is inadequate.

Cadence is another red herring as most discuss it. It is true that higher cadence requires less torque for the same power produced versus lower cadence. And that higher cadence taxes the cardiovascular system more. Lower cadence requires more muscle strength due to the increased torque. However, cyclists confuse training objectives with cycling objectives. I train low cadence and high cadence and I self select cadence when I ride for fun or performance. I train using low cadence 50 rpm and at high cadence 110 rpm +. But I self select and ride at 80 to 85 rpms on climbs and 85 to 100 on flats. To say one should always ride at 80 to 100 is general statement not too useful and incomplete.

Beginner cyclists need to be told what to do and not over think this stuff too much. It takes a long time to build muscular skeletal infrastructure and many 50+ riders have skeletal problems. So lower torque is generally better which means higher cadence. However, rookies cyclists have poor cardiovascular endurance so higher cadence is harder for them and they tend to self select low cadence and use their strength which puts more force on the joints. So rookie cyclists should stay off the hills on flat terrain and out of the big chain ring and just enjoy riding for a few months to build pedal stroke technique, cardiovascular endurance and skeletal muscular infrastructure.

I started watching this too, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR5iMj4TofQ.

This guy is good and has credentials. He talks about matters I have posted about including the importance of using the glutes in the pedal stroke, shoes and retention and orthotics. I love the way she sort of argues with him. Most cyclists want the world to be the way they see it. Unfortunately, the back, knees and other parts of the body have to deal with the bike in the real world of terrain and time in the saddle. He tells her she wants to distance herself from being a lycra clad cyclist but wants to ride a lot. Riding a lot really stresses the body so we need to have everything right and take advantage of what technology and medical science can offer.

I have large flat feet and have a toe problem due to the structure of my foot and walking and running over the years. I have custom orthotics made by a pediatrist. The guy I use is a foot surgeon and cyclist. He made me a pair of very cool, light weight custom orthotics that fix my toe problem. With orthotics, cycling and proper shoes, it should last a long time. Knee, feet and back problems need to be addressed by sports knowledgeable medical professionals, IMHO.

When I did my Retul fit a couple of months ago, the fitter praised my orthotics as works of art. He said most come to him with very poor foot position in the shoe and he has to try to fix it with wedges and etc on the bike.

I have more money tied up in pedals, shoes and orthotics than most do in CF bicycles.

IMO, the over the counter orthotics may work for some cyclists. There are other sources of orthotics such as Surefoot. I have custom orthotics in my ski boots. However, my advice is deep six running shoes or any shoes other than stiff cycling shoes designed for cycling. That is of course biased toward longer rides and more time in the saddle. Short trips around town and very easy riding is a different matter and less demanding on equipment.

He also discusses Q which is the distance between the feet. Triples are wider than double and posters in this thread are recommending pedal extensions to make the Q greater. Well, the key is to have an assessment made and see whether you need to go wider or narrower for a knee problem.

We are all different and there is no one size fits all in sports.

As always, Hermes has thoughtful, intelligent and useful posts that should be paid attention to when attempting to improve cycling fitness, bike fit, training and so forth. He has spent large sums of money and much time finding this stuff out.

Thanks for the props. I have been fortunate to have been around some great people who have helped me a lot.

Haven't seen this generally-helpful knee strengthening exercise mentioned in the thread: Quad sets.

https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/quad-sets

You need not be sitting on the floor. On a couch, in a chair while working, eating, on the computer, at the side of your bed, simply elevate leg and press knees down.