Take a look at this picture.



The saddle to bar drop looks enormous, ludicrous, doesn't it?

On the other hand, in the drops his back is almost completely flat and he is very aero. With his arms almost straight, almost no muscular effort is needed to hold the position.

My question is, how much do you ride in the drops, how flat is your back when you are there, and how much do you have to bend your elbows to get there?. What limits how flat your back can be, hip flexibility, back flexibility, or abdomen err flexibility?

I think you're wrong about "no muscular effort". He is using his core strength to hold his upper body in that position. Very little weight/pressure on his arms and hands. Pro riding positions don't work for most recreational riders because they lack the core strength.

Yes, you're right, his core is doing a lot of the work.

I meant no muscular effort in his arms. Despite his core strength, his arms are supporting some of his weight, and he has them just slightly flexed. Compared to this old style racer, with no saddle to bar drop, who has a flat back but with his elbows deeply bent.



Looking at this picture helps me understand where some of the old terms came from. "Gnawing the stem" and "On the rivet".

But note the terrible bend in the back of the second photo compared to the first. Look how open the chest on the upper rider is and how relaxed. Be that as it may, the arm position on the second rider is faster because there's less arm exposed to the wind. OTOH it's not as relaxed and harder to hold. The first rider can hold that position all day. That added flexibility and more comfortable position are relatively recent innovations which are definitely faster. I should point out that the camera is tilted a lot in the first photo. His back is actually a long way from horizontal.

However . . . the huge saddle to bar drop in the first photo depends on the rider's geometry and to a lesser extent to the bike's geometry. The position depends on it being a very long legged rider on a bike with a very short headtube. I ride slammed -17° stems on all my bikes. My drop varies from 1.5" to 4" depending on headtube length and stem. Even in the drops with my chin on the stem, my back is not horizontal, nor would the back of the second rider if he were flexible enough to straighten his back. His back is not horizontal, he's just hunched. A contributing factor to that poor position is probably a much too short top tube which was fashionable in the day, possibly because the light steel frames were so flexible.

Me? I havent even taken My 1 old Road Bike down from the ceiling hooks this past year .. its a tourist's / "french fit"? setup .

The photo was taken at an angle. Look at the background. LOL.

If you're flexible enough the steer tube is the limit but as you get older a taller head tube and spacers on the fork stem will help keep you from experiencing a large pain in the arse (see piriformis syndrome). Interestingly, although I don't see anything wrong riding with a rounded back if that's what's comfortable, something amazing I noticed, mid-foot pedaling as opposed to riding with the balls of the foot over pedal spindle: it seems natural to ride with a flatter back. As to why I'm not sure but it's almost like --e.g., do you feel you have to climb stairs with a rounded back? But, try climbing stairs with the ball of your foot on the edge of each stair -- it probably will feel more natural to lean into every step.

I admire the streamlined look of riders who can fold at the hips with the spine nearly straight and flat.

But I suppose not all of us can do that, and it doesn't mean we can't have good position on the bike. Here is a rider who rides with a very humped lower back, but has accomplished a fair few things on a bike even so.



CFboy pointed out that it is more aero to have the forearms flat. I wonder if today the go-fast hammer position is with hands on the hoods and forearms flat, with the drops used when they need to ride fast for a long time, as well as for all-out sprints.

On century rides, I'll ride more than half the time in the drops, admittedly I don't have a big saddle to bar drop (maybe 3") and my back isn't completely flat either. It is a comfortable position for hours.

So, what stops you from getting all the way to a completely flat back? For me, my knees start to hit my midsection (yes, it is embarrassing to write that). My hip/back flexibility are fine, I'm just too thick.

It's a Cervelo S5. It has a very sloped top tube that appears level in photo. While the rider is very aero, he is not horizontal as the photo would imply at first glance.

Good catch

Right. A lot of people don't understand a flat back is not necessarily a horizontal back.

[MENTION=63590]jyl[/MENTION] - I feel like I am still learning a lot about riding a bike, even at 65!

This picture has been posted way to many times but I do so for reference. I have put more miles in this year than any I have records for. I suspect I put more in when I was in my 20's back in the 70's. After 30 years of no riding, I started in 2008.

I started doing sit ups to help strengthen my core, which has made a big difference plus the 2700 miles since mid March. I have lost over 30 lbs, including 2 inches in the waist, now at a weight I haven't seen in 30 plus years. In the drops, my stomach is slightly touched by my knees. I have been spending more time on the hoods over this time period and started to move to the drops with the improved conditioning.

Just this week I consciously flattened my lower back and experienced more applied power to the pedals. I was surprised by the results. I haven't measured the drop of the bar from the saddle, but my estimation is about 2-3 inches. This is an older picture but is close to the current configuration.

[IMG]1991 Pinarello Montello 60 cm, on Flickr[/IMG]

My Colnago is set up much the same. The stem I use is longer by about 20mm. Again, the rear wheel is off the ground a couple of inches. I think I have about as many miles on the Colnago and it is equally comfortable. It needs exercise!

[IMG]1983 Colnago Superissimo, on Flickr[/IMG]

Steve Hogg has an interesting article a bit related to this, discussing what he calls effective torso length.

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...or-road-bikes/

Keep in mind when you see pictures of a Pro in a very low position odd's are they are pushing on the pedals very hard. That also aids in taking weight off the hands. A position that is comfortable at 400 Watts can be very tiring at 100.

That is a very interesting and well written article.

I have a long torso, short legs, good flexibility in my hips-pelvis, tend to push bigger gears at lower cadence, and usually have 2-3 inches of saddle-to-bar drop. I also tend to push my saddle as far back as it will go. Now I better understand why.