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Tern Verge X11 the King of Folders

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Tern Verge X11 the King of Folders

Old 03-26-24, 12:27 AM
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Look at the 3 tires types characteristics (thread, width, pressure...) and you will see that my feelings fully match what Schwalbe has measured and is explaining in the link I posted.

Besides the tires, all other parameters (bike and wheels) are identical.

The whole discussion is only based on feelings (also what you, Sentinel1 and Duragrouch wrote), only Schwalbe made measurements. The Fnhon bike you showed was even never used/tested, it has no chain, no brakes...


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Old 03-26-24, 12:35 AM
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The idea that the findings of these personal pseudo-experiments mean anything is either ignorance or self-delusion. Sorry.
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Old 03-26-24, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch

So my point is, it's not the 451 size, but the quality of tire. Put the same quality tire on 406, and have fork geometry tuned to each size, and you get extremely close results, because they are extremely close in size.

.
Yes, very good explanation, i could nt be bother to go in so much details

Until you tried on the same bike with the same weight and the same tyre, you cannot say how the same affect significally.
the x11 is a better long distance bike by design, saying it is due to 451 only is short sited.


In automotive road tests, with sporty cars coming with different tires, it's extremely important to know how much handling is due to the vehicle and suspension design, and how much due to tires, as the tires can be changed.
Tell me about it… i spent ages developping for road/race/wet tyres and suspension settings and compromise.
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Old 03-26-24, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Fentuz
Yes, very good explanation, i could nt be bother to go in so much details

Until you tried on the same bike with the same weight and the same tyre, you cannot say how the same affect significally.
the x11 is a better long distance bike by design, saying it is due to 451 only is short sited.



Tell me about it… i spent ages developping for road/race/wet tyres and suspension settings and compromise.
100% the X11 eats up miles easier than smaller folders. ive been riding folders for 33 years. And I've had all three major sizes. In those years.

Brompton 349mm 16 inch
Dahon helios XX/Tern Verge X18 406mm 20 inch
​​​​Tern Verge X11 451mm 20 inch

And believe me you wouldnt want to be making the 21 mile trek across London I do twice a month on a Brompton with its small wheels and poor gearing. And even a good 406 wheel folder would be a major chore. The only folder I've ever ridden that makes that trip in a timely manner (inside 2 hours) And I'm not half dead at my age of 60 and 196lb body is the X11.

It eats those miles. Bosses those hills and handles the rough roads with ease. I've made the trip over the years on all three sizes. So I know what im talking about. I've never owned a car. All my travel inside London is done on my folders. Or occasionally public transport if I'm going out with the wife for the evening.

But I know London roads as good as anybody. Again going back to tires which seems to be what everyone's got hung up on. On this thread. No way are 50mm tires faster and more efficient than 28mm to 35mm tires. More comfortable all day long. But not more efficient. Or everyone in the Tour de France would have them on their 15lb carbon bikes.

Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-26-24 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 03-26-24, 07:16 AM
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For those who don't know, maybe some explanation about the Greenspeed Scorcher 40x349 and 40x406.

These tires were specially developped for race use to be mounted on the Greenspeed Aero race trike.

Greenspeed made a lot of tests of several tires width and diameter to eventually end up with the current configuration which is two 40x349 wheels front chosen because they provide a better aerodynamics than the same wheel+tire in 40x406 while they not having a significantly higher rolling resistance. The rear wheel is 40x406 because its located behind the seat so the higher drag of bigger diameter has no real influence.

The 40mm wide high pressure tires was the best tradeoff between width, pressure and weight. Narrower tires for such wheel diameter weren't better (read the explanation of the Schwalbe website, the best tradeoff width-pressure-weight for ETRTO622 wheels is different than the best tradeoff for small diameter wheels).

The measurements of Wim Schermer demonstrate that Greenspeed made an excellent job!

Sentine1, of your list of bikes, its obvious than the Verge X11 is the fastest and anybody who tried a Brompton knows that its not an efficient bike, but there are several other small wheels bike with ETRTO406 wheels that can easily compete against the Verge X11. And these bikes equipped with Greenspeed Scorcher 120 will most probably be faster.
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Old 03-26-24, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1

And believe me you wouldnt want to be making the 21 mile................ And even a good 406 wheel folder would be a major chore. The only folder I've ever ridden that makes that trip in a timely manner (inside 2 hours) And I'm not half dead at my age of 60 and 196lb body is the X11.
.
I don't know about that, I commuted daily on my Helios modded to match verge x18 from the Cotswolds (1mile from CH White) to Swindon (70K round trip) on tarmac and smooth gravel path.

On my gravel bike, 50mm tyres are faster than my 35mm tyres hence the 35 not in use. on Rolling resistance website, the conti are in the 16 to 20W loss and the panaracer are at 23-25W.
Now the tyre from tour de France are designed differently and the RR is in the low 10 (11-12)W so of course they will be faster than a XC race tyre but these super roady tyres are not available in 406 or 451.

Going back to the X11 (great bike by the way), there are things that makes it faster:
the drive train is a mixture of Sram force 1 and GX which are the mid level like ultegra/SLX/XT which are younger and better than X18 capreo/tiagra/sora. the x11 is going to be smoother with less transmission waste.
the x11 and x18 have similar specced wheels and tyres so 451 will be easier to keep spinning.
the disc brakes allow for later deceleration so faster transitions
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Old 03-26-24, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jipe
For those who don't know, maybe some explanation about the Greenspeed Scorcher 40x349 and 40x406.

These tires were specially developped for race use to be mounted on the Greenspeed Aero race trike.

Greenspeed made a lot of tests of several tires width and diameter to eventually end up with the current configuration which is two 40x349 wheels front chosen because they provide a better aerodynamics than the same wheel+tire in 40x406 while they not having a significantly higher rolling resistance. The rear wheel is 40x406 because its located behind the seat so the higher drag of bigger diameter has no real influence.

The 40mm wide high pressure tires was the best tradeoff between width, pressure and weight. Narrower tires for such wheel diameter weren't better (read the explanation of the Schwalbe website, the best tradeoff width-pressure-weight for ETRTO622 wheels is different than the best tradeoff for small diameter wheels).

The measurements of Wim Schermer demonstrate that Greenspeed made an excellent job!

Sentine1, of your list of bikes, its obvious than the Verge X11 is the fastest and anybody who tried a Brompton knows that its not an efficient bike, but there are several other small wheels bike with ETRTO406 wheels that can easily compete against the Verge X11. And these bikes equipped with Greenspeed Scorcher 120 will most probably be faster.
The Tern Verge X18 is A dedicated folding road bike. It is as fast as the X11. But STILL more tiring over long rides. That's what's not being understood here. I didnt say no folder is as fast as the X11. The whole X RANGE

X10
X11
X18
X20
X30H
DAHON Helios XX.

Are all fast bikes. Although the X11 is the only one I ever broke 30mph on the flat on really pushing it. The X18 peaked out at 27.3mph. And the Dahon 26.2.mph. I peaked at 30.1mph on the X11. A pro super fit young cyclist would get even more out of it. Than my worn out 60 year old body. I was 56 and weighed 182lbs. When I hit 30.1mph.

Imagine a super fit 160lb 25 year old. What they could do.

It's the overall efficiency, comfort and road handling of the X11. That in my opinion makes it the king of folding bikes for PERFORMANCE. Not folding. That crown will alway be worn by the Brompton. But on overall performance I've never sat on any folder like the X11. How do you upload photos on here. I want to upload a pic of my pride and joy. I don't even fold it indoors. It's a thing of beauty just to look at.

Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-26-24 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 03-26-24, 07:41 AM
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Bike Friday has entered the chat.


Bike Friday Pocket Rocket with ETRO 451 20" wheels


This is a 20+ year old used Pocket Rocket. It rides great. I'd love to swing my leg over a new Pocket Rocket Pro someday.

For me, the biggest difference between ETRO 451 and ETRO 406 is feel. This Pocket Rocket with ETRO 451 feels like 700c bike. I have a nearly identical Pocket Crusoe with ETRO 406 and it doesn't feel like a 700c bike. The difference is not big but it is noticeable.


Bike Friday Pocket Crusoe with ETRO 406 20" wheels
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Old 03-26-24, 07:53 AM
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Your live in US, its easy to find Greenspeed Scorcher in the US (several recumbent bike shops have them), it seems there is quite some clearance around your old Stelvio tires and your bike has V-brakes, it seems it could accept the 40x406 Scorcher 120, your could compare your Pocket Crusoe with Scorcher to your Pocket Rocket with narrow ETRTO451 tires.

About tires, the Vee Tire Co Speedster is a BMX knobby tire with only 90TPI casing, this is not a really fast casing, there is no chance it can compete in rolling resistance against a 120TPI slick race tire.
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Old 03-26-24, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
Bike Friday has entered the chat.


Bike Friday Pocket Rocket with ETRO 451 20" wheels


This is a 20+ year old used Pocket Rocket. It rides great. I'd love to swing my leg over a new Pocket Rocket Pro someday.

For me, the biggest difference between ETRO 451 and ETRO 406 is feel. This Pocket Rocket with ETRO 451 feels like 700c bike. I have a nearly identical Pocket Crusoe with ETRO 406 and it doesn't feel like a 700c bike. The difference is not big but it is noticeable.


Bike Friday Pocket Crusoe with ETRO 406 20" wheels
Nice bike but nothing surpasses the lines of the X11. It truly is the Ferrari of folding bikes. When someone tells me how to upload pics on here. My X11 will enter. And the title of this thread will have true credence. With my red tipsum pedals adding the finishing touch to this masterpiece.
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Old 03-26-24, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
Nice bike but nothing surpasses the lines of the X11. It truly is the Ferrari of folding bikes. When someone tells me how to upload pics on here. My X11 will enter. And the title of this thread will have true credence. With my red tipsum pedals adding the finishing touch to this masterpiece.
Your X11 better have drop bars and deep dish rims because Ferarris don't have four doors and curb feelers. 😉
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Old 03-26-24, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Fentuz
I don't know about that, I commuted daily on my Helios modded to match verge x18 from the Cotswolds (1mile from CH White) to Swindon (70K round trip) on tarmac and smooth gravel path.

On my gravel bike, 50mm tyres are faster than my 35mm tyres hence the 35 not in use. on Rolling resistance website, the conti are in the 16 to 20W loss and the panaracer are at 23-25W.
Now the tyre from tour de France are designed differently and the RR is in the low 10 (11-12)W so of course they will be faster than a XC race tyre but these super roady tyres are not available in 406 or 451.

Going back to the X11 (great bike by the way), there are things that makes it faster:
the drive train is a mixture of Sram force 1 and GX which are the mid level like ultegra/SLX/XT which are younger and better than X18 capreo/tiagra/sora. the x11 is going to be smoother with less transmission waste.
the x11 and x18 have similar specced wheels and tyres so 451 will be easier to keep spinning.
the disc brakes allow for later deceleration so faster transitions
Great Post. Wow you are alot fitter than me then that's all I can say. When I worked I commuted a 13 mile round trip from Purley to Woldingham. And that was enough for me in a day. Yes it's true I find it easier to barrel up to speed keep it there for longer on the X11 than I could on the smaller bikes. For the same reason you will never see a 20 inch bike win the Tour De France. Over that long tour. The 700c wheels will drop any rider on 406/451 wheels. That said if my memory serves me right. The speed record for an upright bike remains 51mph set in 1986 by Jim Glover on a Moulton 17 inch wheel bike indoors. So over a short distance. Small wheels can rule.

The Tern Verge X11. One folder to rule them ALL..

Last edited by Sentinel1; 03-26-24 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 03-26-24, 10:11 AM
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Is this a company advertisement?? If I am to ride 21 miles across the city regularly, saving on public transport, why should I choose a folder for the task??
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Old 03-26-24, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
Great Post. Wow you are alot fitter than me then that's all I can say. When I worked I commuted a 13 mile round trip from Purley to Woldingham. And that was enough for me in a day. Yes it's true I find it easier to barrel up to speed keep it there for longer on the X11 than I could on the smaller bikes. For the same reason you will never see a 20 inch bike win the Tour De France. Over that long tour. The 700c wheels will drop any rider on 406/451 wheels. That said if my memory serves me right. The speed record for an upright bike remains 51mph set in 1986 by Jim Glover on a Moulton 17 inch wheel bike indoors. So over a short distance. Small wheels can rule.

The Tern Verge X11. One folder to rule them ALL..
Originally Posted by 2_i
Is this a company advertisement?? If I am to ride 21 miles across the city regularly, saving on public transport, why should I choose a folder for the task??
That's the point. This folder is as good as any full sized hybrid or road bike of the same weight. And should anything go wrong. I have the option to jump a bus. Train or in the boot of an uber.
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Old 03-26-24, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
That's the point. This folder is as good as any full sized hybrid or road bike of the same weight. And should anything go wrong. I have the option to jump a bus. Train or in the boot of an uber.
So there is this narrow window for excelling in regularly riding long distances in a city—long but still rideable—with the option of hopping on public transport. The bike is not equipped with fenders in a city where it rains every third day and still does not fold into a particularly compact size for public transport. Still, I can understand the thrill of sporty riding—I just need to scratch my head from different sides of this story.
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Old 03-26-24, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 2_i
So there is this narrow window for excelling in regularly riding long distances in a city—long but still rideable—with the option of hopping on public transport. The bike is not equipped with fenders in a city where it rains every third day and still does not fold into a particularly compact size for public transport. Still, I can understand the thrill of sporty riding—I just need to scratch my head from different sides of this story.
Each to their own. Its served me well over the years and saved me over £20,000 in travel expenses. Fenders not necessary. I cross London twice a month. My normal commute used to be a round trip of 13 miles a day when I worked. I would be at work in 25 minutes. And be home in 20. And this year is a freak year. It hasn't rained this much for years.

True its not the most compact fold. But I rarely use public transport. Because the bike is so good. But I have taken It on a bus when I had a flat a few years ago. And a train a few times with no issues. And it's nice to know you can. My friend blew out both his tires on his road bike in the middle of the countryside some years ago. He had to walk the bike 7 miles to reach the nearest main line railway. He took nearly 4 hours to get home. He now rides a similar folder.
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Old 03-26-24, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
Great Post. Wow you are alot fitter than me then that's all I can say. When I worked I commuted a 13 mile round trip from Purley to Woldingham. And that was enough for me in a day. Yes it's true I find it easier to barrel up to speed keep it there for longer on the X11 than I could on the smaller bikes. For the same reason you will never see a 20 inch bike win the Tour De France. Over that long tour. The 700c wheels will drop any rider on 406/451 wheels. That said if my memory serves me right. The speed record for an upright bike remains 51mph set in 1986 by Jim Glover on a Moulton 17 inch wheel bike indoors. So over a short distance. Small wheels can rule.

The Tern Verge X11. One folder to rule them ALL..
Beautiful bike - love the hydroformed frame and the components!

But Ferarri? Come on - that suggests a machine where style and performance take precedence to practicality and comfort.

I'd say it's more of a VW GTI or Civic Type R. And that's not faint praise.
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Old 03-26-24, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
Beautiful bike - love the hydroformed frame and the components!

But Ferarri? Come on - that suggests a machine where style and performance take precedence to practicality and comfort.

I'd say it's more of a VW GTI or Civic Type R. And that's not faint praise.
Thanks. It's all of the above to me.
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Old 03-26-24, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
No way are 50mm tires faster and more efficient than 28mm to 35mm tires. More comfortable all day long. But not more efficient. Or everyone in the Tour de France would have them on their 15lb carbon bikes.
You made a leap in logic there. Tour de France riders go at the highest humanly possible speed. The most efficient tires for them are not the most efficient for you and me. I ride much more slowly. Wide tires reduce vibrations, and vibrations fatigue the human body, especially on long rides.
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Old 03-26-24, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
You made a leap in logic there. Tour de France riders go at the highest humanly possible speed. The most efficient tires for them are not the most efficient for you and me. I ride much more slowly. Wide tires reduce vibrations, and vibrations fatigue the human body, especially on long rides.
Well for ne it was the opposite. I got fatigued faster with 50mm tires than 35mm. We will just have to agree to dis-agree. Where I live you cannot even ride a mile without facing some kind of uphill grade. And its on the hills I really felt the difference. On the flat and of course down hill. There will be little difference. The wider tires might even have the edge downhill. As they are more stable and weight downhill will accelerate faster than lighter weight.

But in my environment with hills and upward grades dominating most of My journeys. Narrower lighter tires have proved to be more efficient for me.
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Old 03-26-24, 02:39 PM
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Right, it depends on the conditions, the rider, and the type of riding. There is no single answer.
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Old 03-26-24, 04:49 PM
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I'd just buy a FnHon Tornado frameset for $210, and build it myself to an equivalent level of the Tern for one third the price. As they say in Singapore, "same same lah".








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Old 03-26-24, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
I'd just buy a FnHon Tornado frameset for $210, and build it myself to an equivalent level of the Tern for one third the price. As they say in Singapore, "same same lah".






That's no X11. That's a Y11
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Old 03-26-24, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sentinel1
That's no X11. That's a Y11
Once again, as they'd say in SG, "same same lah". Except for the price, of course. 😛😛
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Old 03-26-24, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Damon
Once again, as they'd say in SG, "same same lah". Except for the price, of course. 😛😛
Thats a poor man's clone. Only its not. The handle bar is not even adjustable. You can't skimp on QUALITY. The Sram force groupset alone costs around £1000. Same way people clone Bromptons. But there's nothing quite like the real thing. And it will make your money back many times over. In the years ahead.
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