Why is this? What is the real cost difference in equipment between Ti/TIG and braze/steel for example? I'm mainly going this route because I want my first bike to be a bike I actually want. If I'm going to spend 2k on bike building classes, the least I should get is something I'm into.

I think not making commuters is interesting. I know a lot of people who are super enthusiastic about biking as a means of transportation, and honestly, I just think I'd like to offer those people something nice. After bike messengers (which I have been in several cities) I think that commuters are the most inline with my thoughts on what bicycling means. I really can't stand blowing past over weight slow cyclist with over-expensive gear. I had a conversation with one guy who has a 7k carbon fiber whatever, and I kept telling him that if he lost 20 pounds of fat, it would help his riding more than any tech. I'd love to make custom frames that are ridden daily, used in the rain, etc.

You noted earlier that you like "crazy geometry". There are people that know way more than me, but I think you can get that with fillet brazing also. so an option might be steel tubes and fillet brazing.

Another thing to think about is what really works and sells. When I look at custom bikes I don't see tons of "crazy geometry". I would guess that is partially because many custom bike builders are pretty traditional, but also traditional geometry works.

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't build commuters. I was just grabbing a category where I see a lot of folks with higher than normal accident rates, and higher than average incomes (debatable). I'm sure one can come up with a reason for not building any particular bike type, I'm just suggesting that if you specialize in a style of bike that rich people are going to use to do backflips at slickrock, it might turn out to be riskier than building fancy lugged touring bikes bikes for aging boomers who will probably put them on a stand in their rec room. But what that cat is for you, or if you care, is up to you.

"Why is this? What is the real cost difference in equipment between Ti/TIG and braze/steel for example?"

If you want to compete with guys doing Ti, they all seem to do uber clean work. The tubing is hard to shape with a nail file, so I suspect you would see the following in their shops:

TIG machine 2K-6K. There are some excellent asian machines, coming in and we will soon have options other than Miller, here. But for now, consider 3-4K being entry. That said, the odd guy gets a massive deal on a syncrowave. Keep in mind though, that these old school machines can mean large expenditures in re-wiring your shop, and they are bulky.

Milling machine:

500-1500, some guys have three of these.

Jig. 2-6K. There are a lot of options here, but over time, I am not convinced that there are better options than just firing a check to Anvil. For TIG, most guys use a serious jig. And despite spending thousands on gear in my shop, I eventually sprung for an Anvil. Unless a lot of things fall in place, making your own jig will cost you more. I spent years trying to come up with cheap alternatives for hom builders, and I did come up with one good idea, but overall Anvil was still worth it. You may need other jigs from them, like the ones that go on the mills, and a fork jig.

Then some nice tooling to actually cut the joints.

If you braze, there are ways to avoid having any kind of jig, and with steel you arguably do not gain from having a machine set-up to cut parts. And your torch costs will be around 1K, depending. That is to get nice stuff. Keeping in mind the explosive hazard torches do push the envelope on what should be done in a residential setting...

Then TIG is far harder and more skilled, and Tig on Ti is the ultimate bike wise. So it will be a long time before you get to a point were your work is clean. Anyone can braze. Being a brazing god who lays in virtually finished fillets is a long learning curve also, but since most brass gets sanded anyway, you can scratch your way to salable results with not that much of a learning curve.

"I'm mainly going this route because I want my first bike to be a bike I actually want. If I'm going to spend 2k on bike building classes, the least I should get is something I'm into."

Very valid point, you just need to be aware how difficult this will be and how costly, and also be confident that there is a market for the kind of work you currently like. Ti is a very small part of the market.

Gonzo geometry normally marks you as a newbie. Not sure whether this is prejudice in the marketplace, or that we really have perfected the bike. However wanting to explore beyond current lug offerings is normal.

Ok, I'm sorry, I guess I probably overstated what I mean by "crazy" geometry. I am into track frames and pursuit style frames. I guess when I think crazy, I think commuting on something like a Bianchi Pista which is taller than it is long. Most of my friends think I'm crazy when I tell them I commuted 25 miles each way on that bike. Then again, most people tell me I'm crazy when I do a 500 mile day on my Ducati 749. I personally think if you have the physical and mental stamina for aggressive geometry, then the payoff in control and speed far outweigh the discomfort. Then again, I'm only 30, so ask me the same question in 20 years and I might say something different.

I'm thinking MassiveD is having a massive point (sorry) in this last post. Honestly, my first choice was to do brazed stainless. I personally have been wanting to avoid paint mainly because I think there are serious sustainability issues that you run into, and honestly, there is something that feels right about being able to offer a frame that i built up from tube, without having to send someone to another shop to "finish" it off. After asking the guys at UBI about doing stainless in their class and getting a definitive "no", I figured I'd look into Ti/TIG.

So what if I went the steel/braze route, I'm certainly convinced just in torch costs alone I'm saving thousands. How many frames would I be putting out before I tried my hand at brazing stainless? The UBI folks basically said they don't teach stainless because it's harder and I couldn't get up my skills fast enough. How much truth is in this?

Really I just want to make "affordable" paint-less frames to local people who are into bikes and not racing or jumping off dirt mounds.

Oh, I forgot frame prep tools, though it is a wash among methods.

Problem with frame building is that the moment you come up with a great idea, there is someone to tell you that you can't get there from here. Fillet brazing stainless is a problem, which is probably why you are encountering resistance. The good news is that it is pretty easy to do with silver. Personally I would have no problem doing my own bike that way, and it used to be pretty common to do it that way. The prevailing view today is that it is not safe, which means that if anything ever goes wrong you are not going to have any cover.

Filler and flux master Freddy Parr, if he is still making stuff, had a miracle material that I believe brazes silver and is easy to use. I don't know about current availability. You could google around. However, in my mind it is an unproven material, that while I would not really hesitate to use it, I am not sure what the basis is for assuming a lessor failure rate than Silver that has just been out there a lot longer. Whether one should base a business model around a single boutique product that does not have a long term record, and has has supply problems is a question I would want to look into.

Again, it is kinda a twinkie idea for a business. A lot of stainless and Ti bikes get some paint, don't they? For decals, a unified look, and stuff like pinstripes. It just becomes one more thing a competitor is offering to professionalize his offerings, and make them more distinct. I think that avoiding paint, as massively appealing as it is, is sorta solving a problem most people did not even know they had, while frame making has lots of real problems to solve for people, that you can solve in steel. These would be fit, purpose, quality, and looks. Plus personalizing the sales process so that people feel their needs are being met at the level they have come to expect in other parts of their lives.

I always say to newbies that they should look at how Bike Friday does it. Not that you want to make folding bikes. But they have come up with a method of providing well regarded results with the cheapest of materials and methods. They do TIG, but that's a production thing in their case, they also braze. These days we also have ex-BF dude Rob English. Check out his site. He makes interesting custom bikes carrying over the extreme cheapness approach of BF. He does some extreme things, but simply, he just brass brazes. Also, while I have no idea how he is doing, his stuff looks more likely than some to attract a full build than just a frame sale, which is one key to more profit per frame sale. The bikes he builds are ones most people would want him to outfit, which is clever.

There are any number of other makers one could point to. I just chose BF, and RE, because they have methods that choose the cheapest means to achieve the highest value add. Lets say a person did do Ti to save clients the need to buy a bottle of touch-up paint (and I realize there are deeper problems than that), that is a massive upfront cost to provide a benefit most people will not add too many dollars to a sticker price in order to get. Even the ride differences are pretty difficult to spot in a blind test kind of setting. Your job is to maximize your profit margin while providing clients with the sense of the greatest value increase that they can have. Sadly for the metal guys, paint is a lot of that perceived value. I can think of a number of very revered makers whose bikes I would never look at if they used a different painter. Sadly good paint is expensive and kinda nixes the idea of getting a nice looking ride into someone's hands cheaply. One option is to do steel and find a local powder coater you can work with. That will handle the purely functional bikes.

Here is a guy in Pittsburg who seems to have beat you to it, though not by much.

https://maestroframeworks.com/blog/


It would be hard to avoid calling a frame shop something like Steel City Cycles, and making all the frames out of steel, given Pittsburgh's heritage.

I know guys who have sold their second frame. The one thing you need to focus on if you go that route is quality control, you need to come up with some means of determining that the joints you have built are going to stay together. Some familiarity with something like welding process methods, so you can come up with a means of establishing a test, and making certain that you are passing the standard, and better still how that works out in the bike. If the frame looks and works good, and you can be sure the joints are solid, then you have something to sell. The unknown is the joints. This is one place where lugs are pretty easy. First, if you do silver brazing the heat issues, which are sometime overstated, non the less, go away. Second, you can saw a lug appart and determine what penetration you got. If you managed to flow silver everywhere, that pretty much means you had enough flux, and were hot enough.

With welding it is not so easy to tell. I did come across one guys site where he had something like 100 joints he had made to learn to tig. The later ones looked nice enough, if not spectacular. He put in the time making parts, and these could be carefully examined for normal welding failure signs.

Pittsburgh and CMU did at one time have world class welding expertise. My sister worked on a project for her doctorate at CMU that had to do with weld failure in Nuke plants. You could probably find some resources there to at least get you up to speed on terminology, and make you sound more competent. Also I would quiz hard any of the folks offering courses to determine what they do to make you able to determine quality. And what follow up support they provide. Doug Fattic comes around here often, and he runs courses. And there is ANT.

crazy how this guy took classes in February and is now already selling several different models. I was sort of excited because I thought that I could take classes locally, but now it seems like he doesn't have much more time into this than me. I think his 600 dollar "classic" frames deserves a thread of its own.

Honestly, I don't care about competitors or market. If I sold enough frames to friends to pay off my equipment I'd call that a success. Hell, if I come home with a bike that I made myself that would be a success. I honestly just want to make the bikes I want to make, and if very people are interested, I'm cool with that. I work for myself and have a lot of free time and want to do this for myself mostly. I've played the guitar for years and never played in front of people you know? It's just harder when every bike you make you don't want just sitting there, and you don't want to keep throwing down cash.

So to re-iterate tig/Ti is hard and expensive. Stainless/brazing is hard or unproven?

You've gotten some excellent and extended answers to your questions already. I'll explain why UBI and I don't allow students to use stainless when building their 1st frame in class. The simple answer is that it is too difficult for beginners to do! It has a narrow brazing temperature range, it requires way more scrupulous cleaning and once things goes south you can't recover. Its like learning to swim by being thrown into the deep end of the pool. The sensible approach is to start simple and as one gains ability and confidence, increase the difficulty. A first frame should be successful and not one that has a high chance it needs to be cut up because brazing skills aren't up to par. Regular steel has a higher tolerance than ss of absorbing rookie mistakes.

Another thing I'll mention is that all the money you spend on your education and equipment isn't going to be totally wasted if building frames isn't for you. You come out of class with at least a custom frame fit just to you and the equipment you bought can be resold. A nearly new Anvil fixture doesn't loose a lot of value.

The question of equipment costs has for already been well answered. I'll just put it into different words. Tig welding requires accurately mitered and precisely placed tubes. This means expensive tooling and fixturing. With lug brazing hand mitered tubes can be spotted together and moved into alignment. For example to insure that a rear wheel centers exactly in the plane of the frame, hand mitered chain stays can be moved in and out of a socketed bottom bracket shell until a wheel centers. With tig welding, the miters have to exactly match at precisely the right length. Because brazing requires less expensive equipment, it is the logical place to start.

I'd also mention that the more education/training you've received, the fewer frames you need to make before they are acceptable to the public. That is one of the reasons my most common class is 3 weeks long. Those that are self taught with manuals and online help have a much longer learning curve. I'm forever thankful for having had the opportunity to learn from a master in Europe and am proud to show off all my frames from the beginning. PM or email me and I'll send you a long list of reasons why to take a class. Just like every framebuilder isn't equally skilled, neither is every teacher and class equal. After class you will have a much better understanding of what it takes to build frames and whether you have the interest and/or ability to continue. It will answer so many of your questions.

Excellent response Doug. So it seems like the general consensus is:

1 build a frame with traditional methods and materials
2 try stainless steel later
3 starting out with Ti is exponentially more expensive

Astrx,
I can tell you what someone that will be looking was thinking
background - Super clyde getting back in shape after years of 60 hour weeks behind a desk. I bought a steel hybrid and have been riding everyday. I was thinking when a 20 mile ride is a regular workout, I will want more of a road bike to get more miles in.

My thoughts were
1) how much would the frame be
2) steel would be good for me as a light bike wont help me for year(s)
3) if he would ride his own bike and the price was good I'd sign a release
4) what sizes are universal for loading up the frame

Thanks for the buyer's perspective. That makes a lot of sense. Honestly I don't get why people are so upset about frame weight, like steel is so much heavier than anything else. A frame is only a small part of the overall weight of a bike.

The only reason weight is such a big deal is because it is quantifiable. Hard to say which of two frames is better, but which weighs more is something anyone can understand.

The problem of the release is the suggestion of the problem, combined with the limited protection a release actually provides.

Yeah, that makes sense about frame weight. I've never even considered it when building a bike. I know a guy who built up a steel framed track bike that came in under 15 pounds and he didn't have to put anything exotic on it at all.

In other news, I've been emailing with Doug Fattic who seems like a great guy, and I'm going to try and get my ducks in order to take one of his upcoming 3 week classes. Woop!

As for the insurance thing, could a bunch of amateur builders all get together to make a co-op to share the burden of insurance costs?

Doug is a great guy, you'll learn a lot. I think the coop might work, but you would probably have to hire a lawyer to do it properly. Rife with annoyances.

true true. i run a coworking space right now so i have some experience herding cats, and realize if i really wanted to do an umbrella insurance thing, it would really just be me doing it and other people paying for it.