Are shops selling the bikes that average people want?
08-10-18, 10:02 AM
#76
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By the numbers, the average bike shop is selling the average person the average bike that person wants .... the bike shop is Walmart and the bike is probably a Magna ... but that seems to be the overwhelmingly average scenario according to the available numbers.
What happens in the decidedly Not average upscale bike shops i wouldn't know either ... haven't bought a bike from a bike shop in this century.
What happens in the decidedly Not average upscale bike shops i wouldn't know either ... haven't bought a bike from a bike shop in this century.
08-10-18, 10:57 AM
#77
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Apparently a lot of people have made an informed decision to buy the bicycles offered by Walmart and similar bicycle retailers. How does that jibe with the self proclaimed BF experts (many of who seem to be associated with LBS operations and bicycle clubs affiliated with LBS) who constantly rail about those retailers and the bicycle products offered (BSO!) as being unsuitable for anyone's use?
08-10-18, 11:35 AM
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The BSO label is really the "No True Scotsman" fallacy being applied to inanimate objects. There seems to be a belief that what's keeping greater numbers of people from biking is they haven't experienced riding a good bike, but there are millions of WM bikes being ridden every day, which has to be explained away. So it's either "someone who just rides a short distance to work isn't a real bicyclist" or "those people aren't riding real bikes and will get sick of it". Anything that can be done to write 80% of the market out of the discussion will be done, apparently.
No one here is questioning that Wal-Mart sells tons of bikes. Our objection to the sales of such large numbers is not coming from some Illuminati, snob secret society. It is actually coming from much more of a sharing, giving type ethic. We know our bikes and we possess the knowledge of what separates quality from, ahem....crap.
The explanation of how so many millions of bike buyers can be so un-interested in the probable reality that the heavy, unresponsive, potentially dangerous bike-like object that they are purchasing? How can we further this conversation without being accused of being elitist snobs?
I would submit that for me my reading of “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” by Robert Pirsig deeply influenced me. As did working in the back room of a former pro bike shop, struggling to stay viable by doing assembly on department store Huffy’s along with an inmate - Dave who taught me that cursing while manhandling a Huffy Scout from its factory box was mandatory. Also mandatory for assembly were cave man tools such as Vise Grips, pipe wrenches, oversized screwdrivers and large ball pein hammers.
The zinc plated machine spoked wheels wheels with their chromed steel rims always required tensioning and truing with the end result of frustrating amounts of labor hours yielding below average but “adequate for government work” level of mediocrity.
Pro-consumer, the market dictates what it needs folks can go ahead and thrash away at me, beginning now....
08-10-18, 11:49 AM
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The mistake is in treating "wants" as one-dimensional, as if they are inborn. In reality, wants - even those which satisfy the things we all agree are "needs," such as the needs for food and shelter - are shaped heavily by peer effects, marketing, even just the sheer availability of products. Sure, bike shops offer the products that consumers want, if they plan to stay in business for very long...And sure, the bike industry, other cyclists, the shops themselves, all help to shape those wants.
And really, it is more helpful to think in terms of "preferences" than wants, as that word makes clearer that we're talking about individual judgments.
And really, it is more helpful to think in terms of "preferences" than wants, as that word makes clearer that we're talking about individual judgments.
08-10-18, 11:55 AM
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Our objection to the sales of such large numbers is not coming from some Illuminati, snob secret society. It is actually coming from much more of a sharing, giving type ethic. We know our bikes and we possess the knowledge of what separates quality from, ahem....crap.
The explanation of how so many millions of bike buyers can be so un-interested in the probable reality that the heavy, unresponsive, potentially dangerous bike-like object that they are purchasing? How can we further this conversation without being accused of being elitist snobs?
I would submit that for me my reading of “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” by Robert Pirsig deeply influenced me. As did working in the back room of a former pro bike shop, struggling to stay viable by doing assembly on department store Huffy’s along with an inmate - Dave who taught me that cursing while manhandling a Huffy Scout from its factory box was mandatory. Also mandatory for assembly were cave man tools such as Vise Grips, pipe wrenches, oversized screwdrivers and large ball pein hammers.
The zinc plated machine spoked wheels wheels with their chromed steel rims always required tensioning and truing with the end result of frustrating amounts of labor hours yielding below average but “adequate for government work” level of mediocrity.
Pro-consumer, the market dictates what it needs folks can go ahead and thrash away at me, beginning now....
The explanation of how so many millions of bike buyers can be so un-interested in the probable reality that the heavy, unresponsive, potentially dangerous bike-like object that they are purchasing? How can we further this conversation without being accused of being elitist snobs?
I would submit that for me my reading of “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” by Robert Pirsig deeply influenced me. As did working in the back room of a former pro bike shop, struggling to stay viable by doing assembly on department store Huffy’s along with an inmate - Dave who taught me that cursing while manhandling a Huffy Scout from its factory box was mandatory. Also mandatory for assembly were cave man tools such as Vise Grips, pipe wrenches, oversized screwdrivers and large ball pein hammers.
The zinc plated machine spoked wheels wheels with their chromed steel rims always required tensioning and truing with the end result of frustrating amounts of labor hours yielding below average but “adequate for government work” level of mediocrity.
Pro-consumer, the market dictates what it needs folks can go ahead and thrash away at me, beginning now....
08-10-18, 12:16 PM
#81
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Sounds like you would prefer that the local bike shops should all just shrivel up and die....
Pardon me if I don’t have an MBA and lack the vocabulary to capture the magic of gargantuan retailers and how wonderful they are. Often times LBS’S (local bike shops that is) really have a love of cycling and helping others enjoy this super healthy, dynamic fun hobby is their mission statement. If making large amounts of profit were their singular motivation then they should all just go out of business now. Why delay the inevitable?
You certainly deserve credit “I-Like-To-Bike” for defending the mass merchants and our capitalist way of life here in America. I fear that you are sorely missing the point though. Inferior products sold to a majority of people who are content with them sounds very Orwellian to me...
Pardon me if I don’t have an MBA and lack the vocabulary to capture the magic of gargantuan retailers and how wonderful they are. Often times LBS’S (local bike shops that is) really have a love of cycling and helping others enjoy this super healthy, dynamic fun hobby is their mission statement. If making large amounts of profit were their singular motivation then they should all just go out of business now. Why delay the inevitable?
You certainly deserve credit “I-Like-To-Bike” for defending the mass merchants and our capitalist way of life here in America. I fear that you are sorely missing the point though. Inferior products sold to a majority of people who are content with them sounds very Orwellian to me...
08-10-18, 01:05 PM
#82
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The explanation of how so many millions of bike buyers can be so un-interested in the probable reality that the heavy, unresponsive, potentially dangerous bike-like object that they are purchasing? How can we further this conversation without being accused of being elitist snobs?
First, it is Not “bike-like object.” It is “Bicycle-Shaped Objects”—BSO.
Second: Massive Elitism.
Look … I spent a lot of years on BSOs when I first added cycling to my car-free lifestyle. I couldn’t afford and wouldn’t have wanted the stuff the shops were selling. I literally picked up bikes on the side of the road. I had a couple friends donate to me bikes they didn’t want---Sears Firenze MTBs.
I rode hard, I beat the snot out of things. I carried a lot of gear, I had no concern for mysef or my machines. I constantly built and rebuilt and always had a couple on hand.
Some bikes were pure …. Stuff, let’s say. I snapped the chainring off a one-piece Ashtabula crank on a Huffy trying to sprint through a 20-second window between people running the red two ways and people jumping the green in three other directions. Great time to be stalled dead center in an intersection about six lanes wide, believe me.
But most of them weren’t as bad as my mechanicing. I trued wheels by eye, didn’t worry much about roundness or tension so long as I could fit the tires between the brakes. I didn’t lube Anything, and I rode in hard rain pretty much every day for a couple months a year. I didn’t care. Bikes were consumables.
And you know what? I did some pretty good rides on BSOs.
I wasn’t a gentle, ride-the-sidewalk three-block commuter. I was a many miles two or three times a day, hop curbs, bash over obstacles (can’t bunny-hop with full panniers—or I couldn’t.) I rode seven days a week bike abuser. I carried loads of laundry, 50 pounds or more of groceries … and I did that long enough to buy a few decent yard-sale bikes---two of which were stolen, one which I still have. I also bought a bike-store bike—a Bridgestone MB4. (Lost it jousting with a car.)
I rode a yard-sale bike from Orlando, Florida to Washington, DC, fully loaded with about 80-90 pounds of touring gear. Bike worked flawlessly. By then I had learned how to wrench some.
The folks buying what we condescendingly call “BSO” are often getting bikes about as good as we had as kids. Some of the parts are cheaper—levers in particular. And All the suspension bikes are pretty much junk.
But for most casual riders … a Walmart bike can meet all their needs and do it for years without all the massive rebuilding we all like to claim they need.
Sorry to have to be honest and real—it’s just who I am.
For people who never intend to push hard, a Walmart bike is A Bicycle. Basic, simple, metal …. Technologies mankind mastered long ago, in a package mankind has been producing for what, 110 years?
I doubt most of those people would really get a lot more out of a bike costing six times as much—but if you come here, people argue whether one can buy a worthwhile bike for $700. People at Walmart buy worthwhile bikes for $110 every day.
I am sure there is snobbery in Every crowd. No matter what we eat, there are people who are both amused and nauseated. No matter which wine we pick, there are oenophiles shuddering and chuckling. No matter which car we drive, which barbeque sauce (“You BUY barbeque sauce?” “You buy bread in grocery stores????”) or which Whatever … there are people ready to tell us that we are buying trash and simply have not learned to appreciate the finer things.
We Are Bike Snobs.
Plenty of people are completely happy riding Anything Which Rolls. Plenty of people are totally focused on The Ride (like we Should be, you’d think) and not all hung up on the gear, the glitz, the glamour, the bling, the image, the lingo ….. They could not care less about which brands are which any more than they care about the ignition advance or valve lift on their cars.
There are people on this site who have tens of thousands of miles on Huffys and Magnas. They pop up from time to time—for these sorts of debates.
Basically … those people, the 73 percent or whatever …. Are like most peple who buy cars. Almost nobody really wrings out a car … it simply cannot be done safely on the street.
Ask Jefnvk about a Ford Fusion … there was a Fusion model which flat outperformed a 1975 Porsche Turbo (the first year the Porsche Turbo was offered, I think.)
I think the Porsche had a taller top end, but the Fusion matched it 0–60 and 60–0. Had equal or better handling (no barbell off the back axle.)
The Porsche Turbo was a Supercar, a Monster … and 30 years later a $28K sport-optioned econobox Ford could ace it.
But seriously … most econoboxes could be thrashed around at amazing and certainly unsafe speeds, way faster than most any driver ever bothers to probe. (Don’t ask me why I don’t drive any more.)
And for most people who drive at traffic speeds … anything with four wheels and three forward gears is just fine.
And for most people who ride bikes … Walmart sells them a completely acceptable product.
Wouldn’t work for us … because we want something else. But what Walmart and other big box stores sell is what a lot of people want.
But as I recall the book said it didn’t really have much in it about Zen, or motorcycles.
A lot of the book was about insanity, and a lot of it was about “Quality” which Pirsig defined as sort of “undifferentiated perception, direct, unfiltered perception of reality without intrusion from the conscious mind.”
I do not believe the word “Walmart” appeared in the book even once—and I don’t remember any bicycles either.
Phaedrus, facing a desire to travel faster than he could on foot, would have chosen a bicycle not based on the name on the down tube, and would not have been impressed by a bike designed to Pretend to be a racing machine (as all those “ten-speed racers” were, around the time the book was published.)
Phaedrus would have looked past form, and saw that the seat would only function if someone pedaled constantly. He would have looked at his legs and seen that they were not bike-racer’s legs. He would have looked at an upright bike with one chain ring and a wide-range rear cassette, fattish tires, a wide, supportive seat, and swept-back bars to ease strain on the arms, hands and shoulders.
That bike almost perfectly describes the sub $100 DiamondBack a friend of mine bought at Walmart a while ago. He rides slowly, mostly on the sidewalk, he doesn’t do stunts or tricks, he doesn’t race … he needs a bike to get to where he needs to be (often the bus station.) And for him, that Walmart Diamondback is all the bike he will ever need.
Cost him less than $100.
I could give him any of my bikes … and none of them would work as well for what he needs as what he bought for under $100 at Walmart.
Last edited by Maelochs; 08-10-18 at 01:13 PM.
08-10-18, 01:31 PM
#83
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Two things.
First, it is Not “bike-like object.” It is “Bicycle-Shaped Objects”—BSO.
Second: Massive Elitism.
Look … I spent a lot of years on BSOs when I first added cycling to my car-free lifestyle. I couldn’t afford and wouldn’t have wanted the stuff the shops were selling. I literally picked up bikes on the side of the road. I had a couple friends donate to me bikes they didn’t want---Sears Firenze MTBs.
I rode hard, I beat the snot out of things. I carried a lot of gear, I had no concern for mysef or my machines. I constantly built and rebuilt and always had a couple on hand.
Some bikes were pure …. Stuff, let’s say. I snapped the chainring off a one-piece Ashtabula crank on a Huffy trying to sprint through a 20-second window between people running the red two ways and people jumping the green in three other directions. Great time to be stalled dead center in an intersection about six lanes wide, believe me.
But most of them weren’t as bad as my mechanicing. I trued wheels by eye, didn’t worry much about roundness or tension so long as I could fit the tires between the brakes. I didn’t lube Anything, and I rode in hard rain pretty much every day for a couple months a year. I didn’t care. Bikes were consumables.
And you know what? I did some pretty good rides on BSOs.
I wasn’t a gentle, ride-the-sidewalk three-block commuter. I was a many miles two or three times a day, hop curbs, bash over obstacles (can’t bunny-hop with full panniers—or I couldn’t.) I rode seven days a week bike abuser. I carried loads of laundry, 50 pounds or more of groceries … and I did that long enough to buy a few decent yard-sale bikes---two of which were stolen, one which I still have. I also bought a bike-store bike—a Bridgestone MB4. (Lost it jousting with a car.)
I rode a yard-sale bike from Orlando, Florida to Washington, DC, fully loaded with about 80-90 pounds of touring gear. Bike worked flawlessly. By then I had learned how to wrench some.
The folks buying what we condescendingly call “BSO” are often getting bikes about as good as we had as kids. Some of the parts are cheaper—levers in particular. And All the suspension bikes are pretty much junk.
But for most casual riders … a Walmart bike can meet all their needs and do it for years without all the massive rebuilding we all like to claim they need.
Sorry to have to be honest and real—it’s just who I am.
For people who never intend to push hard, a Walmart bike is A Bicycle. Basic, simple, metal …. Technologies mankind mastered long ago, in a package mankind has been producing for what, 110 years?
I doubt most of those people would really get a lot more out of a bike costing six times as much—but if you come here, people argue whether one can buy a worthwhile bike for $700. People at Walmart buy worthwhile bikes for $110 every day.
I am sure there is snobbery in Every crowd. No matter what we eat, there are people who are both amused and nauseated. No matter which wine we pick, there are oenophiles shuddering and chuckling. No matter which car we drive, which barbeque sauce (“You BUY barbeque sauce?” “You buy bread in grocery stores????”) or which Whatever … there are people ready to tell us that we are buying trash and simply have not learned to appreciate the finer things.
We Are Bike Snobs.
Plenty of people are completely happy riding Anything Which Rolls. Plenty of people are totally focused on The Ride (like we Should be, you’d think) and not all hung up on the gear, the glitz, the glamour, the bling, the image, the lingo ….. They could not care less about which brands are which any more than they care about the ignition advance or valve lift on their cars.
There are people on this site who have tens of thousands of miles on Huffys and Magnas. They pop up from time to time—for these sorts of debates.
Basically … those people, the 73 percent or whatever …. Are like most peple who buy cars. Almost nobody really wrings out a car … it simply cannot be done safely on the street.
Ask Jefnvk about a Ford Fusion … there was a Fusion model which flat outperformed a 1975 Porsche Turbo (the first year the Porsche Turbo was offered, I think.)
I think the Porsche had a taller top end, but the Fusion matched it 0–60 and 60–0. Had equal or better handling (no barbell off the back axle.)
The Porsche Turbo was a Supercar, a Monster … and 30 years later a $28K sport-optioned econobox Ford could ace it.
But seriously … most econoboxes could be thrashed around at amazing and certainly unsafe speeds, way faster than most any driver ever bothers to probe. (Don’t ask me why I don’t drive any more.)
And for most people who drive at traffic speeds … anything with four wheels and three forward gears is just fine.
And for most people who ride bikes … Walmart sells them a completely acceptable product.
Wouldn’t work for us … because we want something else. But what Walmart and other big box stores sell is what a lot of people want.
I knew there was Something about you.
But as I recall the book said it didn’t really have much in it about Zen, or motorcycles.
A lot of the book was about insanity, and a lot of it was about “Quality” which Pirsig defined as sort of “undifferentiated perception, direct, unfiltered perception of reality without intrusion from the conscious mind.”
I do not believe the word “Walmart” appeared in the book even once—and I don’t remember any bicycles either.
Phaedrus, facing a desire to travel faster than he could on foot, would have chosen a bicycle not based on the name on the down tube, and would not have been impressed by a bike designed to Pretend to be a racing machine (as all those “ten-speed racers” were, around the time the book was published.)
Phaedrus would have looked past form, and saw that the seat would only function if someone pedaled constantly. He would have looked at his legs and seen that they were not bike-racer’s legs. He would have looked at an upright bike with one chain ring and a wide-range rear cassette, fattish tires, a wide, supportive seat, and swept-back bars to ease strain on the arms, hands and shoulders.
That bike almost perfectly describes the sub $100 DiamondBack a friend of mine bought at Walmart a while ago. He rides slowly, mostly on the sidewalk, he doesn’t do stunts or tricks, he doesn’t race … he needs a bike to get to where he needs to be (often the bus station.) And for him, that Walmart Diamondback is all the bike he will ever need.
Cost him less than $100.
I could give him any of my bikes … and none of them would work as well for what he needs as what he bought for under $100 at Walmart.
First, it is Not “bike-like object.” It is “Bicycle-Shaped Objects”—BSO.
Second: Massive Elitism.
Look … I spent a lot of years on BSOs when I first added cycling to my car-free lifestyle. I couldn’t afford and wouldn’t have wanted the stuff the shops were selling. I literally picked up bikes on the side of the road. I had a couple friends donate to me bikes they didn’t want---Sears Firenze MTBs.
I rode hard, I beat the snot out of things. I carried a lot of gear, I had no concern for mysef or my machines. I constantly built and rebuilt and always had a couple on hand.
Some bikes were pure …. Stuff, let’s say. I snapped the chainring off a one-piece Ashtabula crank on a Huffy trying to sprint through a 20-second window between people running the red two ways and people jumping the green in three other directions. Great time to be stalled dead center in an intersection about six lanes wide, believe me.
But most of them weren’t as bad as my mechanicing. I trued wheels by eye, didn’t worry much about roundness or tension so long as I could fit the tires between the brakes. I didn’t lube Anything, and I rode in hard rain pretty much every day for a couple months a year. I didn’t care. Bikes were consumables.
And you know what? I did some pretty good rides on BSOs.
I wasn’t a gentle, ride-the-sidewalk three-block commuter. I was a many miles two or three times a day, hop curbs, bash over obstacles (can’t bunny-hop with full panniers—or I couldn’t.) I rode seven days a week bike abuser. I carried loads of laundry, 50 pounds or more of groceries … and I did that long enough to buy a few decent yard-sale bikes---two of which were stolen, one which I still have. I also bought a bike-store bike—a Bridgestone MB4. (Lost it jousting with a car.)
I rode a yard-sale bike from Orlando, Florida to Washington, DC, fully loaded with about 80-90 pounds of touring gear. Bike worked flawlessly. By then I had learned how to wrench some.
The folks buying what we condescendingly call “BSO” are often getting bikes about as good as we had as kids. Some of the parts are cheaper—levers in particular. And All the suspension bikes are pretty much junk.
But for most casual riders … a Walmart bike can meet all their needs and do it for years without all the massive rebuilding we all like to claim they need.
Sorry to have to be honest and real—it’s just who I am.
For people who never intend to push hard, a Walmart bike is A Bicycle. Basic, simple, metal …. Technologies mankind mastered long ago, in a package mankind has been producing for what, 110 years?
I doubt most of those people would really get a lot more out of a bike costing six times as much—but if you come here, people argue whether one can buy a worthwhile bike for $700. People at Walmart buy worthwhile bikes for $110 every day.
I am sure there is snobbery in Every crowd. No matter what we eat, there are people who are both amused and nauseated. No matter which wine we pick, there are oenophiles shuddering and chuckling. No matter which car we drive, which barbeque sauce (“You BUY barbeque sauce?” “You buy bread in grocery stores????”) or which Whatever … there are people ready to tell us that we are buying trash and simply have not learned to appreciate the finer things.
We Are Bike Snobs.
Plenty of people are completely happy riding Anything Which Rolls. Plenty of people are totally focused on The Ride (like we Should be, you’d think) and not all hung up on the gear, the glitz, the glamour, the bling, the image, the lingo ….. They could not care less about which brands are which any more than they care about the ignition advance or valve lift on their cars.
There are people on this site who have tens of thousands of miles on Huffys and Magnas. They pop up from time to time—for these sorts of debates.
Basically … those people, the 73 percent or whatever …. Are like most peple who buy cars. Almost nobody really wrings out a car … it simply cannot be done safely on the street.
Ask Jefnvk about a Ford Fusion … there was a Fusion model which flat outperformed a 1975 Porsche Turbo (the first year the Porsche Turbo was offered, I think.)
I think the Porsche had a taller top end, but the Fusion matched it 0–60 and 60–0. Had equal or better handling (no barbell off the back axle.)
The Porsche Turbo was a Supercar, a Monster … and 30 years later a $28K sport-optioned econobox Ford could ace it.
But seriously … most econoboxes could be thrashed around at amazing and certainly unsafe speeds, way faster than most any driver ever bothers to probe. (Don’t ask me why I don’t drive any more.)
And for most people who drive at traffic speeds … anything with four wheels and three forward gears is just fine.
And for most people who ride bikes … Walmart sells them a completely acceptable product.
Wouldn’t work for us … because we want something else. But what Walmart and other big box stores sell is what a lot of people want.
I knew there was Something about you.
But as I recall the book said it didn’t really have much in it about Zen, or motorcycles.
A lot of the book was about insanity, and a lot of it was about “Quality” which Pirsig defined as sort of “undifferentiated perception, direct, unfiltered perception of reality without intrusion from the conscious mind.”
I do not believe the word “Walmart” appeared in the book even once—and I don’t remember any bicycles either.
Phaedrus, facing a desire to travel faster than he could on foot, would have chosen a bicycle not based on the name on the down tube, and would not have been impressed by a bike designed to Pretend to be a racing machine (as all those “ten-speed racers” were, around the time the book was published.)
Phaedrus would have looked past form, and saw that the seat would only function if someone pedaled constantly. He would have looked at his legs and seen that they were not bike-racer’s legs. He would have looked at an upright bike with one chain ring and a wide-range rear cassette, fattish tires, a wide, supportive seat, and swept-back bars to ease strain on the arms, hands and shoulders.
That bike almost perfectly describes the sub $100 DiamondBack a friend of mine bought at Walmart a while ago. He rides slowly, mostly on the sidewalk, he doesn’t do stunts or tricks, he doesn’t race … he needs a bike to get to where he needs to be (often the bus station.) And for him, that Walmart Diamondback is all the bike he will ever need.
Cost him less than $100.
I could give him any of my bikes … and none of them would work as well for what he needs as what he bought for under $100 at Walmart.
08-10-18, 01:38 PM
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08-10-18, 01:55 PM
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Ask Jefnvk about a Ford Fusion … there was a Fusion model which flat outperformed a 1975 Porsche Turbo (the first year the Porsche Turbo was offered, I think.)
I think the Porsche had a taller top end, but the Fusion matched it 0–60 and 60–0. Had equal or better handling (no barbell off the back axle.)
The Porsche Turbo was a Supercar, a Monster … and 30 years later a $28K sport-optioned econobox Ford could ace it.
But seriously … most econoboxes could be thrashed around at amazing and certainly unsafe speeds, way faster than most any driver ever bothers to probe. (Don’t ask me why I don’t drive any more.)
I think the Porsche had a taller top end, but the Fusion matched it 0–60 and 60–0. Had equal or better handling (no barbell off the back axle.)
The Porsche Turbo was a Supercar, a Monster … and 30 years later a $28K sport-optioned econobox Ford could ace it.
But seriously … most econoboxes could be thrashed around at amazing and certainly unsafe speeds, way faster than most any driver ever bothers to probe. (Don’t ask me why I don’t drive any more.)
A better comparison, tho, Car and Driver did an archived test pitting a base 2011 or 2012 V6 Mustang against the originsl Boss 302. The V6 won in everything but one braking metric.
My personal one is dreadfully slow, but it'll still do north of the ton mark with ease. And yes, it'll easily drive past the limits of most drivers out there. I plan on starting to autocross it, just to become more competent at my job.
08-10-18, 02:19 PM
#86
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Yes. Clearly the problem is the deplorables who bitterly cling to their BSOs. We, the cognoscenti, have seen the future and know we are on the right side of history. What's needed is to force the deplorables to accept our great vision.
scott s.
.
scott s.
.
08-10-18, 07:45 PM
#87
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It’s ok to want people to have the best bike they can. That doesn’t mean you look down on them if they don’t. When I was in the bike shop I didn’t care what someone rode in, I just wanted it to be working right.
My first “grownup” bike was a late 70s 10 speed from Sears. I think it was named after a golfer. It was my Dad’s. I started riding it after I saw Greg Lemond and the Tour for the first time. The stamped metal stem ripped right in two. After a time I got an entry to mid level Bianchi on ultra-clearance that I still have, but I don’t have it with me... I’m riding a $100 late 80s Schwinn. It’s a good commuter. It’s a practical bike and pedals easily.
You can ride anything and enjoy it. People like different things. It’s ok to recognize that, and still want better for people. That doesn’t make you a snob, it just means you know about bicycles.
My first “grownup” bike was a late 70s 10 speed from Sears. I think it was named after a golfer. It was my Dad’s. I started riding it after I saw Greg Lemond and the Tour for the first time. The stamped metal stem ripped right in two. After a time I got an entry to mid level Bianchi on ultra-clearance that I still have, but I don’t have it with me... I’m riding a $100 late 80s Schwinn. It’s a good commuter. It’s a practical bike and pedals easily.
You can ride anything and enjoy it. People like different things. It’s ok to recognize that, and still want better for people. That doesn’t make you a snob, it just means you know about bicycles.
08-10-18, 08:29 PM
#88
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You still haven't described what you think is the "right" bike for the average non-cyclist. I still maintain it is something along the lines of a hybrid or rigid MTB with slicks, which is more or less what the "average" person is on.
08-11-18, 03:23 AM
#89
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It is more okay to look at what is best For Them.
Budget, performance, suitability to the necessary tasks are all important.
My friend with a sub-$100 Diamonback from Walmart got, for him, the perfect bike. Everything else would be overkill.
I could put my 91-year-old father in a Porsche. It would in no way be "better" than putting him in the kind of car he likes, a full-sized sedan. In fact, the Porsche would not only be wasted but even dangerous. And, it would eat up his retirement savings.
Budget, performance, suitability to the necessary tasks are all important.
My friend with a sub-$100 Diamonback from Walmart got, for him, the perfect bike. Everything else would be overkill.
I could put my 91-year-old father in a Porsche. It would in no way be "better" than putting him in the kind of car he likes, a full-sized sedan. In fact, the Porsche would not only be wasted but even dangerous. And, it would eat up his retirement savings.
08-11-18, 04:47 AM
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OP does nothing but state that the average new rider needs a bike that weighs 50% less than the current bike shop offerings.
That is naive, ridiculous and elitist all at the same time.
Bravo
That is naive, ridiculous and elitist all at the same time.
Bravo
08-11-18, 07:32 AM
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Back in the 1960s when I was growing up the default purchase by a non-cyclist was probably something along the lines of a three-speed or a five-speed with fenders and an upright seating position. Today I would probably advocate for the same sort of bike but with wider tires for suitability on gravel roads and rail trails.
08-11-18, 10:12 AM
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I would say the "right" bike for Mr. Average Joe is a BSO priced below $100 with a few nice details like these. Preferably in Red. Don
08-11-18, 10:28 AM
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You have no credibility at all! 
This is Ted Williams, whose name graced lots of Sears sports products:
Ted Williams: "The Greatest Hitter Who Ever Lived" | The Mythology of Ted Williams | American Masters | PBS
08-11-18, 10:31 AM
#94
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^^ so, you say you are selling that bike for $100? I'm on it.
08-11-18, 12:23 PM
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People can make up their own minds, but by suggesting this or that I am doing nothing different than what the industry does - and I think they should have more choice at lower price points.
This is what they usually get told they should have (unless they spend quite a bit more for a regular road or mountainbike):
Heavy overbuilt frame with large tubing.
Slow steering.
Front shock.
Overbuilt heavy adjustable stem.
Crank with chainring guard - sometimes with unremovable chainrings.
Very large spread heavy cogset with bail out gear - regardless of where they live.
Large lycra covered gel padded saddle.
Huge shifters.
V brakes.
Big treaded tires.
Large double bent flat bar.
Thick ergonomic grips.
Options I think they should have to choose from:
A standard butted steel or aluminum frame, with bosses for a rear rack and fenders.
Medium steering.
Solid fork.
A good saddle (can be wide or sprung).
Appropriate light to medium weight high rise stem.
Standard 110 crank, or mtn. equivalent.
Med to low gear drivetrain appropriate to location. (Shops CAN switch these out.)
3 speed or 7 speed hub with 1x drivetrain.
Single speed.
Installed lightweight fenders and/or rack.
Simple integrated front and rear battery powered light for visibility (not fancy).
Coaster brake.
Chain guard.
Drop, swept, or flat bars.
Caliper brakes.
Good 35mm to 42mm file tread, or touring tires.
26 OR 700c wheels.
For more money they shoud be able to get the following:
Dyno hub. (By special order, assembled and shipped with bike.)
Basket.
Panniers.
1,2, or 3 ring crank.
You can get some or all of these things, but the the price goes up significantly the more “standard” equipment you get. It doesn’t have to be that way, most of them don’t cost any more than the “budget” versions.
I think these are the sorts of things people want, smaller independent companies are doing well selling them at very reasonable prices, but you don’t see them so much from the big guys or in shops.
This is what they usually get told they should have (unless they spend quite a bit more for a regular road or mountainbike):
Heavy overbuilt frame with large tubing.
Slow steering.
Front shock.
Overbuilt heavy adjustable stem.
Crank with chainring guard - sometimes with unremovable chainrings.
Very large spread heavy cogset with bail out gear - regardless of where they live.
Large lycra covered gel padded saddle.
Huge shifters.
V brakes.
Big treaded tires.
Large double bent flat bar.
Thick ergonomic grips.
Options I think they should have to choose from:
A standard butted steel or aluminum frame, with bosses for a rear rack and fenders.
Medium steering.
Solid fork.
A good saddle (can be wide or sprung).
Appropriate light to medium weight high rise stem.
Standard 110 crank, or mtn. equivalent.
Med to low gear drivetrain appropriate to location. (Shops CAN switch these out.)
3 speed or 7 speed hub with 1x drivetrain.
Single speed.
Installed lightweight fenders and/or rack.
Simple integrated front and rear battery powered light for visibility (not fancy).
Coaster brake.
Chain guard.
Drop, swept, or flat bars.
Caliper brakes.
Good 35mm to 42mm file tread, or touring tires.
26 OR 700c wheels.
For more money they shoud be able to get the following:
Dyno hub. (By special order, assembled and shipped with bike.)
Basket.
Panniers.
1,2, or 3 ring crank.
You can get some or all of these things, but the the price goes up significantly the more “standard” equipment you get. It doesn’t have to be that way, most of them don’t cost any more than the “budget” versions.
I think these are the sorts of things people want, smaller independent companies are doing well selling them at very reasonable prices, but you don’t see them so much from the big guys or in shops.
Last edited by Matt74; 08-11-18 at 12:51 PM.
08-11-18, 12:47 PM
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My responses in the quote box
Heavy overbuilt frame with large tubing. - frame weight contributes minimally to bike weight, and I doubt many are being told to buy heavy ones. It is just what fits pricepoint
Slow steering. -
Front shock. - i agree, this is oversold
Overbuilt heavy adjustable stem. - for someone new to the spory, who doesn't know what they want, and who will change position as they progress, adjustable is not a bad thimg. Confised on the heavy bit tho
Crank with chainring guard - sometimes with unremovable chainrings. - its a personal preference which affects almost nothing art the end of the day
Very large spread heavy cogset with bail out gear - regardless of where they live. - thats what you get with modern 7 speed freewheels, even if I question why they still exist. Surely it would be cheaper to spec everything with the same basic rear hub?
Large lycra covered gel padded saddle. - thats what people insist they want, and for someone whose summer riding consusts if a weekly trip to the ice cream shop, they make sense
Huge shifters. -
V brakes. - absolutely nothing wring with v brakes, probably the best option for any budget applicationBig treaded tires. - im guessing most people find tires to be an after thought, and good luck getting most folks to undrrstand tge difference in tread requirements between bikes and carsLarge double bent flat bar. -
Thick ergonomic grips. - is this something people are really told they need?
Options I think they should have:
A standard butted steel or aluminum frame, with bosses for a rear rack and fenders. - most do
Medium steering. - still
Solid fork. - dont disagree
A good saddle (can be wide or sprung). - saddles are personal, what is "good" to me may be torture to you. Thats why bikes are sold with cheap plastic dealies, the expectation is that theyll be changed anyhow.
Appropriate light to medium weight high rise stem. - what if the person doesn't want a high rise?
Standard 110 crank, or mtn. equivalent. - i presume you mean BCD, how many newbies are truly swapping out chainrings?
Med to low gear drivetrain appropriate to location. (Shops CAN switch these out.) - when I meet newbies who dont even understand shifting, maybe itd be better to educate them on it before assuming a standard 30-120 or so GI gearing is not appropriate?
3 speed or 7 speed hub with 1x drivetrain. - if a person is already balking over a $500 bike, what do you think theyll say about $150 to change those parts
Single speed. - they have it already?
Installed lightweight fenders and/or rack.- an option to anyone who wants them
Simple integrated front and rear battery powered light for visibility (not fancy). - i dont disagree there, but that is mfg option, not lbs, and useless for most people
Coaster brake. -already an option
Chain guard. - only possible on single speed/hub gearing
Drop or flat bars. - already an option
Caliper brakes. - already an option
Good 35mm to 42mm file tread, or touring tires. - already an option
26 OR 700c wheels.- much as i may not like it, 26" is going away. You do have the option of 700 or 650b tho
For more money they shoud be able to get the following:
Dyno hub. (By special order, assembled and shipped with bike.) - already a possibility
Basket. - already a possibility
Panniers. - already a possibility
1,2, or 3 ring crank. - already a possibility
Slow steering. -
Front shock. - i agree, this is oversold
Overbuilt heavy adjustable stem. - for someone new to the spory, who doesn't know what they want, and who will change position as they progress, adjustable is not a bad thimg. Confised on the heavy bit tho
Crank with chainring guard - sometimes with unremovable chainrings. - its a personal preference which affects almost nothing art the end of the day
Very large spread heavy cogset with bail out gear - regardless of where they live. - thats what you get with modern 7 speed freewheels, even if I question why they still exist. Surely it would be cheaper to spec everything with the same basic rear hub?
Large lycra covered gel padded saddle. - thats what people insist they want, and for someone whose summer riding consusts if a weekly trip to the ice cream shop, they make sense
Huge shifters. -
V brakes. - absolutely nothing wring with v brakes, probably the best option for any budget applicationBig treaded tires. - im guessing most people find tires to be an after thought, and good luck getting most folks to undrrstand tge difference in tread requirements between bikes and carsLarge double bent flat bar. -
Thick ergonomic grips. - is this something people are really told they need?
Options I think they should have:
A standard butted steel or aluminum frame, with bosses for a rear rack and fenders. - most do
Medium steering. - still
Solid fork. - dont disagree
A good saddle (can be wide or sprung). - saddles are personal, what is "good" to me may be torture to you. Thats why bikes are sold with cheap plastic dealies, the expectation is that theyll be changed anyhow.
Appropriate light to medium weight high rise stem. - what if the person doesn't want a high rise?
Standard 110 crank, or mtn. equivalent. - i presume you mean BCD, how many newbies are truly swapping out chainrings?
Med to low gear drivetrain appropriate to location. (Shops CAN switch these out.) - when I meet newbies who dont even understand shifting, maybe itd be better to educate them on it before assuming a standard 30-120 or so GI gearing is not appropriate?
3 speed or 7 speed hub with 1x drivetrain. -
if a person is already balking over a $500 bike, what do you think theyll say about $150 to change those partsSingle speed. - they have it already?
Installed lightweight fenders and/or rack.- an option to anyone who wants them
Simple integrated front and rear battery powered light for visibility (not fancy). - i dont disagree there, but that is mfg option, not lbs, and useless for most people
Coaster brake. -already an option
Chain guard. - only possible on single speed/hub gearing
Drop or flat bars. - already an option
Caliper brakes. - already an option
Good 35mm to 42mm file tread, or touring tires. - already an option
26 OR 700c wheels.- much as i may not like it, 26" is going away. You do have the option of 700 or 650b tho
For more money they shoud be able to get the following:
Dyno hub. (By special order, assembled and shipped with bike.) - already a possibility
Basket. - already a possibility
Panniers. - already a possibility
1,2, or 3 ring crank. - already a possibility
Last edited by jefnvk; 08-11-18 at 12:51 PM.
08-11-18, 01:28 PM
#97
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have any of you ever ridden a Walmart bike? A big-box bike of any kind? No? Oh ... then you simply don't know the first thing you are talking about.
Slow steering---is called “stability” by people who are learning to ride. Seriously, who needs “fast” steering? Racers cutting through crit courses. MTB riders slaloming through trees at speed. Not people buying a first adult bike.
And … a lot of people (Who Post here, by the way) seem to like the front suspension. It makes it a lot easier to ride a bumpy trail … and across the lawn and such. A lot of rider errors can be soaked up in a just an inch of travel.
I am not convinced that most first bikes have suspension anyway. Proof?
Chainguard ring? Yeah … because people are Really concerned about rhe weight of the piece of plastic which keeps their clothing out of the chain, keeps the grease off their clothing, and keeps them from getting cut or scraped as they lean not to be clumsy around a bike.
Adjustable stem---absolutely a great thing to put on a beginner bike. Yup. No matter what kind of stem is on the bike, if it is not adjustable, it won’t fit more people than it will. An adjustable stem can fit a Lot more people … and can adapt if they adapt.
As far a changing chain rings … yeah, first thing most novices look to do.
I don’t swap chain rings. I swap cranksets, as a rule. Though I might replace a chain ring due to wear. But we are talking about people who ride a few miles a week … they won’t wear out chain rings in this lifetime.
Big cassette with a granny gear---excellent. We are not talking about athletes buying bikes. We are talking about people who have spent years on the couch, considering getting off the couch. They might not use the granny gear often … but neither of us know that.
Big saddle … yeah, a comfortable saddle is the Last thing I’d put on a bike. Considering that most beginning riders will for their entire riding carreer—SIT ON the saddle, instead of using their legs for some support … a thick saddle might be the difference between riding or not.
Huge shifters … What? Are you hallucinating?
V-brakes … because they work. Yeah, no point having working brakes.
A for lights … most riders are not going to ride at night so lights would just needlessly drive up the price of the bike. Most fo the poor folks I see riding at night rigged a flashlight … and nowadays for about ten dollars one can get a rechargeable flashlight and a strap to attach it to a bike.
If anyone had a clue about who actually buys these bikes, those people would not suggest foolish and useless stuff like built-in lights. A bell would be a much more useful accessory.
This crap that is listed in that post … it is nauseating, that anyone can be so unaware and still so demanding.
The idea that Most Riders have Completely different needs … some people are too selfish or too … (insert obvious adjective) to realize that someone who rides a lot and rides for some level of performance wants something different than people who ride around the neighborhood at 10 mph.
Seriously …. Unremovable chain rings is an issue? Someone needs to Seriously learn to think about the needs of others before dictating the needs of others.
People need to get it through their heads: Most bike buyers and bike riders don’t want what most BF posters want. Don’t need what most BF posters need. Don’t care about what most BF posters care about.
What most of those people want, is to be able to hop on a bike and roll around and get off the bike and not be sore anywhere. And they don’t much want to be sore the next day ….
Weight? They have a granny gear. Gearing? They are just learning to shift, and revs are definitely their friends.
And in many cases … People want step-through frames, which are going to be a little heavier for the same strength … but people lack the flexibility to swing a leg three feet in the air to mount a diamond-frame.
But some people seem to have a driving need to know what everyone else Should want, and is bent on convincing everyone that that is what people Should want ... to what end I do not know.
But the people making all those statements, totally divorced from reality … aren’t running bike shops, or they’d be broke.
I will again mention my friend with his sub $100 Diamondback.
It has a single front ring, 7-speed cassette (not freewheel and cluster) and Shimano brakes and shifters (not the GIGANTIC shifters one poster hallucinates.) I believe the bike has v-brakes---which is good because they are easy to center.
It has 26-inch wheels and lightly treaded tires. This means he can ride groomed dirt trials like some rails to trails, he can ride across a field or whatever …. He doesn’t have to worry if he has to ride down a gravel driveway.
It is steel and weighs about 30 pounds … a little heavier than my Raleigh with its 10-speed Tiagra kit.
That guy doesn’t want anything special. He got some Walmart lights which work fine for the speed and roads he travels. He has a cheap rack and a couple bungees and can bring anything he needs anywhere he needs. He is old and has some health issues but he can lift 30 pounds onto the front rack of the local transit buses, so he can use both systems to get around.
All the stuff listed as a drawback is a plus for him, and everything suggested as an upgrade would be irrelevant or a nuisance or a waste of money … so the guy would buy a cheaper bike without all that useless stuff.
The guy isn’t fast but he will ride as far as he has to, to get where he needs to go. The bike doesn’t hold him back.
People want to make rules for other people .. how about starting with a rule for themselves:
Go out and meet a few dozen of the people whose lives you are trying to rule and rearrange, and figure out what the duck you are talking about. Then talk … if you really feel the need to tell everyone else how to live.
Slow steering---is called “stability” by people who are learning to ride. Seriously, who needs “fast” steering? Racers cutting through crit courses. MTB riders slaloming through trees at speed. Not people buying a first adult bike.
And … a lot of people (Who Post here, by the way) seem to like the front suspension. It makes it a lot easier to ride a bumpy trail … and across the lawn and such. A lot of rider errors can be soaked up in a just an inch of travel.
I am not convinced that most first bikes have suspension anyway. Proof?
Chainguard ring? Yeah … because people are Really concerned about rhe weight of the piece of plastic which keeps their clothing out of the chain, keeps the grease off their clothing, and keeps them from getting cut or scraped as they lean not to be clumsy around a bike.
Adjustable stem---absolutely a great thing to put on a beginner bike. Yup. No matter what kind of stem is on the bike, if it is not adjustable, it won’t fit more people than it will. An adjustable stem can fit a Lot more people … and can adapt if they adapt.
As far a changing chain rings … yeah, first thing most novices look to do.
I don’t swap chain rings. I swap cranksets, as a rule. Though I might replace a chain ring due to wear. But we are talking about people who ride a few miles a week … they won’t wear out chain rings in this lifetime.
Big cassette with a granny gear---excellent. We are not talking about athletes buying bikes. We are talking about people who have spent years on the couch, considering getting off the couch. They might not use the granny gear often … but neither of us know that.
Big saddle … yeah, a comfortable saddle is the Last thing I’d put on a bike. Considering that most beginning riders will for their entire riding carreer—SIT ON the saddle, instead of using their legs for some support … a thick saddle might be the difference between riding or not.
Huge shifters … What? Are you hallucinating?
V-brakes … because they work. Yeah, no point having working brakes.
A for lights … most riders are not going to ride at night so lights would just needlessly drive up the price of the bike. Most fo the poor folks I see riding at night rigged a flashlight … and nowadays for about ten dollars one can get a rechargeable flashlight and a strap to attach it to a bike.
If anyone had a clue about who actually buys these bikes, those people would not suggest foolish and useless stuff like built-in lights. A bell would be a much more useful accessory.
This crap that is listed in that post … it is nauseating, that anyone can be so unaware and still so demanding.
The idea that Most Riders have Completely different needs … some people are too selfish or too … (insert obvious adjective) to realize that someone who rides a lot and rides for some level of performance wants something different than people who ride around the neighborhood at 10 mph.
Seriously …. Unremovable chain rings is an issue? Someone needs to Seriously learn to think about the needs of others before dictating the needs of others.
People need to get it through their heads: Most bike buyers and bike riders don’t want what most BF posters want. Don’t need what most BF posters need. Don’t care about what most BF posters care about.
What most of those people want, is to be able to hop on a bike and roll around and get off the bike and not be sore anywhere. And they don’t much want to be sore the next day ….
Weight? They have a granny gear. Gearing? They are just learning to shift, and revs are definitely their friends.
And in many cases … People want step-through frames, which are going to be a little heavier for the same strength … but people lack the flexibility to swing a leg three feet in the air to mount a diamond-frame.
But some people seem to have a driving need to know what everyone else Should want, and is bent on convincing everyone that that is what people Should want ... to what end I do not know.
But the people making all those statements, totally divorced from reality … aren’t running bike shops, or they’d be broke.
I will again mention my friend with his sub $100 Diamondback.
It has a single front ring, 7-speed cassette (not freewheel and cluster) and Shimano brakes and shifters (not the GIGANTIC shifters one poster hallucinates.) I believe the bike has v-brakes---which is good because they are easy to center.
It has 26-inch wheels and lightly treaded tires. This means he can ride groomed dirt trials like some rails to trails, he can ride across a field or whatever …. He doesn’t have to worry if he has to ride down a gravel driveway.
It is steel and weighs about 30 pounds … a little heavier than my Raleigh with its 10-speed Tiagra kit.
That guy doesn’t want anything special. He got some Walmart lights which work fine for the speed and roads he travels. He has a cheap rack and a couple bungees and can bring anything he needs anywhere he needs. He is old and has some health issues but he can lift 30 pounds onto the front rack of the local transit buses, so he can use both systems to get around.
All the stuff listed as a drawback is a plus for him, and everything suggested as an upgrade would be irrelevant or a nuisance or a waste of money … so the guy would buy a cheaper bike without all that useless stuff.
The guy isn’t fast but he will ride as far as he has to, to get where he needs to go. The bike doesn’t hold him back.
People want to make rules for other people .. how about starting with a rule for themselves:
Go out and meet a few dozen of the people whose lives you are trying to rule and rearrange, and figure out what the duck you are talking about. Then talk … if you really feel the need to tell everyone else how to live.
08-11-18, 01:58 PM
#98
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08-11-18, 03:34 PM
#99
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I give up.
Apparently you all think people want big, heavy, plastic-covered, awkward bikes that make their tushes happy in the store. I find that condescending. I’m hardly the one being snobby and controlling.
I believe people can think for themselves, and shouldn’t have to have to blindly accept whatever manufacturers are pushing.
No one has convinced me that they really love what the industry is putting out. They have only accused me of saying things I did not say (or think), and pointed out that you can ride centuries on a comfort bike. Well, yes you can. I don’t mind if you do.
I find it really offensive that some of you think any rusting conglomeration of parts on wheels is “good enough” for certain people. I want them to have the best bike they can get at the lowest price. I think they are worth it.
You guys complaining about me wanting people to have lighter bikes are being petty and ridiculous.
Apparently you all think people want big, heavy, plastic-covered, awkward bikes that make their tushes happy in the store. I find that condescending. I’m hardly the one being snobby and controlling.
I believe people can think for themselves, and shouldn’t have to have to blindly accept whatever manufacturers are pushing.
No one has convinced me that they really love what the industry is putting out. They have only accused me of saying things I did not say (or think), and pointed out that you can ride centuries on a comfort bike. Well, yes you can. I don’t mind if you do.
I find it really offensive that some of you think any rusting conglomeration of parts on wheels is “good enough” for certain people. I want them to have the best bike they can get at the lowest price. I think they are worth it.
You guys complaining about me wanting people to have lighter bikes are being petty and ridiculous.
08-11-18, 04:11 PM
#100
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Join Date: Oct 2015
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Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
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If you truly believe that people can think for themselves, why do you get upset when they think for themselves ... and buy bikes for themselves?
If people can think for themselves, they can think about what their option are right? They can use the internet just like we can, and see what the options are?
What people are saying is here is People Are thinking for themselves, and Are buying the bikes they want, but not the bikes You want them to buy, and That is what you are mad about.