(indexed) Downtube shifters should make comeback
12-30-18, 09:13 PM
#426
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Holy technicalities batman! Tried to read most the comments and lots of info. The safety thing should be addressed as either a racing situation, or a biking situation. If you are racing and need to shift in any situation then brifters are amazing. I could not beleive the ease when I got a pair of used dura ace brifters for a good price and put them on my vintage bike.. however if you just bike riding or touring I dont think it is that big of an issue to switch with down tube shifters. As far as come back meh??
12-31-18, 12:54 PM
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I love downtube shifters for two reasons only. Aesthetics and simplicity. I think they look way better than bar-end shifters, as there's no extra cable runs, and I can't for the life of me put anything but downtube shifters on a vintage bike.
They certainly aren't better than anything else for any other reason than those, though.
They certainly aren't better than anything else for any other reason than those, though.
12-31-18, 07:37 PM
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I love downtube shifters for two reasons only. Aesthetics and simplicity. I think they look way better than bar-end shifters, as there's no extra cable runs, and I can't for the life of me put anything but downtube shifters on a vintage bike.
They certainly aren't better than anything else for any other reason than those, though.
They certainly aren't better than anything else for any other reason than those, though.
12-31-18, 08:03 PM
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Agree 100% that on vintage bikes STI shifters look awful. But again I must disagree that there are no other reasons to run DT. As has been mentioned before, just comparing Shimano 9sp for example, the shifting is far crisper on my 9 speed DT bike when compared to Shimano 9/10 Speed STI (I actually have both so am not simply speculating like most on this thread). The reasons are obvious, the indexed DT shifter is mechanically simpler and more efficient. Also significantly less cable distance and no housing also improves shifting. So even on newer non-vintage bikes DT shifting is a good option assuming the frame has shift bosses.
12-31-18, 08:13 PM
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As I've said before, friction shifting is like playing the trombone--you just know where it is.
Jon
Jon
12-31-18, 10:29 PM
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Disagree on the negligible statement. I ride both on a regular basis and there are very noticeable differences in performance and behavior. The longer cable is perhaps the least important variable in this difference, but the mechanical differences are not negligible.
12-31-18, 10:38 PM
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You need to fix your ish, then. I'm a fairly experienced cyclist and mechanic. The difference in performance should not be remotely noticeable.
12-31-18, 11:05 PM
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Mechanically the two are just completely different animals. Try them both back to back and you will see. I am referring to Dura Ace 9 or 10 STI vs. DT. I can't speak for Ergo.
01-01-19, 02:15 AM
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01-01-19, 03:32 AM
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Holy technicalities batman! Tried to read most the comments and lots of info. The safety thing should be addressed as either a racing situation, or a biking situation. If you are racing and need to shift in any situation then brifters are amazing. I could not beleive the ease when I got a pair of used dura ace brifters for a good price and put them on my vintage bike.. however if you just bike riding or touring I dont think it is that big of an issue to switch with down tube shifters. As far as come back meh??
The kind of riding I do often takes me onto roads I am not familiar with, so it is very easy to be mistaken about the length and highest grade of a climb when I am at the start of the climb. I am almost as annoyed by getting stuck in a gear that's too low as too high. That's just not a problem with handlebar shifters.
Also, for city riding, it's a lot easier to shift for stop lights with handlebar shifters because you usually have to work the brakes and shifters pretty much simultaneously.
01-01-19, 08:28 AM
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Kids
What do you kids know. ,back in the day we used to grab the chain and shift with our bare hands....mehhh
I guess you got a point on city type shifting being better, but even that to me implies you are looking to go fast,,, speed,, speed, speed, that's all you think about, that's all you think about....
I guess you got a point on city type shifting being better, but even that to me implies you are looking to go fast,,, speed,, speed, speed, that's all you think about, that's all you think about....
Last edited by rossiny; 01-01-19 at 08:38 AM.
01-01-19, 08:39 AM
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What do you kids know. ,back in the day we used to grab the chain and shift with our bare hands....mehhh
I guess you got a point on city type shifting being better, but even that to me implies you are looking to go fast,,, speed,, speed, speed, that's all you think about, that's all you think about....
I guess you got a point on city type shifting being better, but even that to me implies you are looking to go fast,,, speed,, speed, speed, that's all you think about, that's all you think about....
01-01-19, 08:41 AM
#438
faster downhill
but you cant wave and shift DTS at the same time unless you ride with no hands-now thats talent
but its easier to ride with no hands with the correct lube, tubeless tires and disc brakes, you assured never to crash.....said the conspirators who obsolesced DTS. must be the Russians....
01-01-19, 09:54 AM
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Here's an interesting alternative to STI/Ergo, Di2, DT, bar end and stem shifters - actually all hand operated shifters:
Bici Classiche : Cambio Fiochi
Bici Classiche : Cambio Fiochi
01-01-19, 11:05 AM
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I don't race, but I ride hard, and it is a big deal to me. The main difference is on hills. Having the shifters on the handlebars allows me to start a climb in the highest gear possible, knowing I can shift down as I need to. With dt shifters, I have to pick the gear I intend to use all the way up, and that requires me to gear down to what I expect to be the lowest gear I need to get in to maintain momentum at the steepest part of the hill.
The kind of riding I do often takes me onto roads I am not familiar with, so it is very easy to be mistaken about the length and highest grade of a climb when I am at the start of the climb. I am almost as annoyed by getting stuck in a gear that's too low as too high. That's just not a problem with handlebar shifters.
Also, for city riding, it's a lot easier to shift for stop lights with handlebar shifters because you usually have to work the brakes and shifters pretty much simultaneously.
The kind of riding I do often takes me onto roads I am not familiar with, so it is very easy to be mistaken about the length and highest grade of a climb when I am at the start of the climb. I am almost as annoyed by getting stuck in a gear that's too low as too high. That's just not a problem with handlebar shifters.
Also, for city riding, it's a lot easier to shift for stop lights with handlebar shifters because you usually have to work the brakes and shifters pretty much simultaneously.
01-01-19, 04:58 PM
#441
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What you are describing is the most significant advantage of STI (and for me the only clear advantage because I have no issue moving my hand to shift). For this reason I generally prefer my STI bikes for any really hard riding especially over unfamiliar roads and climbs. But I have found that the DT bike (with similar gear ratios) isn't an issue for most rides particularly since I ride the same climbs and know when/where to shift. The ability to shift while standing is not usually necessary as general good riding technique you upshift immediately prior to or as you are getting out of the saddle for a climb or sprint. The only reason to shift while standing is if I misjudged my original shift. Unless you are Chris Horner, most people only climb out of the saddle for short bursts of time so the ability to shift while standing is not really necessary. DT just forces you to think ahead and pick the correct gear which is no big deal if you are accustomed to riding them all the time. STI allows us to be lazy about gear selections because it is easier to correct.
I get out of the saddle a lot, shifting in that situation is not a problem for me, and I don't consider it a miscalculation. I maximize my uphill speed that way often. It's a technique that works very well for me, I really don't care if you consider it good technique.
You seem pretty intent on telling people how they should ride and speaking for "most" bicyclists. You'd save yourself a lot of stress if you gave that up.
01-01-19, 05:14 PM
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What do you kids know. ,back in the day we used to grab the chain and shift with our bare hands....mehhh
I guess you got a point on city type shifting being better, but even that to me implies you are looking to go fast,,, speed,, speed, speed, that's all you think about, that's all you think about....
I guess you got a point on city type shifting being better, but even that to me implies you are looking to go fast,,, speed,, speed, speed, that's all you think about, that's all you think about....
Traffic lights are the one situation where I get really concerned about riding away from inexperienced riders because of how wobbly they get. It may not be good manners, but I usually shoal up from them at a light to avoid possible mishap.
01-01-19, 06:38 PM
#443
faster downhill
Seriously, why do you even care about what people ride for "training, racing, or sport riding"? The spinners are maximizing their cardio workout. It's not what I do, but I can't fault them for valuing cardio over muscle strength.
You seem to have some need to believe these are somehow moral issues, and it's really quite silly. I ride in high gears because it plays to my natural strengths. I don't take kindly to spinners telling me I am doing it wrong, but I sure as heck don't feel a need to convert them or act like I am better or tougher than them.
You seem to have some need to believe these are somehow moral issues, and it's really quite silly. I ride in high gears because it plays to my natural strengths. I don't take kindly to spinners telling me I am doing it wrong, but I sure as heck don't feel a need to convert them or act like I am better or tougher than them.
amen, +1, hallelujah and any other emphatically agreeing words.
ride what you like, just ride over there and leave me alone
01-01-19, 07:26 PM
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The topic of shifting while standing seems to be coming up a lot. The implication from a majority of the posts I have read is that STI shifters are superior because you can shift while standing. It is then implied that it is too awkward to shift your downtube lever while standing which now puts you at some grave disadvantage, throwing off your torque output and making you have to sit and grind some God awful too high a gear or wildly spin an inefficiently low gear.
To this gross oversimplification I have 2 points to make that have been missed so far:
1) Whether you are climbing with STI or climbing with down tube levers (either friction or index), you should always unweight the pedals. This practice greatly minimizes wear and tear on the drivetrain. So while in mid-climb, if you encounter a terrain change such as a false flat or steeper section you’re going to need to tweak your gear. So if you are standing, in order to unweight your pedals slightly you’re going to either momentarily sit down for your shift or somehow pull up on the pedals slightly (instead of mashing) to very expertly transition from one cog to the next while still standing. So this observation leads me to this practical conclusion about shifting while climbing....
2) Either system whether it be STI’s on the handlebars or traditional downtube levers require similar levels of climbing savvy. I submit that the climbing prowess winner between the 2 formats is that there is no winner. Their effective performance ends up in a tie. Downtube levers have a slight simplicity advantage when climbing out of the saddle since selecting the gear on the downtube keeps the shifting function away from the handlebar area which to me gives me more peace of mind that I can pull on my brake levers vigorously whereas the STI’S sometimes seem like they need to be babied a bit. The STI’s on the other hand have that cockpit quality to them where you can really shift more times to adapt just a little better to minor increases or decreases in elevation. I think it is debatable if keeping your cadence steady in your personal spinning power band nets you any speed gains over a technique where you allow your quads to do the work while you drop your cadence down in the 70’s only to later have a spin-fest and spin out @ 110+ cadence. As I say - it may well be that 2 equally gifted riders with identical fitness could likely take on all kinds of varied terrain change and pack riding scenarios with very similar outcomes.
Maybe somebody could tell those British boys (on YouTube’s GCN Global Cycling Network) that do all those comparisons of disc vs rim brake, aero wheels vs climbing wheel type comparison tests and construct an STI vs down-tube shifting circuit climbing test and give a whorl to see if there is any real world difference at all.
To this gross oversimplification I have 2 points to make that have been missed so far:
1) Whether you are climbing with STI or climbing with down tube levers (either friction or index), you should always unweight the pedals. This practice greatly minimizes wear and tear on the drivetrain. So while in mid-climb, if you encounter a terrain change such as a false flat or steeper section you’re going to need to tweak your gear. So if you are standing, in order to unweight your pedals slightly you’re going to either momentarily sit down for your shift or somehow pull up on the pedals slightly (instead of mashing) to very expertly transition from one cog to the next while still standing. So this observation leads me to this practical conclusion about shifting while climbing....
2) Either system whether it be STI’s on the handlebars or traditional downtube levers require similar levels of climbing savvy. I submit that the climbing prowess winner between the 2 formats is that there is no winner. Their effective performance ends up in a tie. Downtube levers have a slight simplicity advantage when climbing out of the saddle since selecting the gear on the downtube keeps the shifting function away from the handlebar area which to me gives me more peace of mind that I can pull on my brake levers vigorously whereas the STI’S sometimes seem like they need to be babied a bit. The STI’s on the other hand have that cockpit quality to them where you can really shift more times to adapt just a little better to minor increases or decreases in elevation. I think it is debatable if keeping your cadence steady in your personal spinning power band nets you any speed gains over a technique where you allow your quads to do the work while you drop your cadence down in the 70’s only to later have a spin-fest and spin out @ 110+ cadence. As I say - it may well be that 2 equally gifted riders with identical fitness could likely take on all kinds of varied terrain change and pack riding scenarios with very similar outcomes.
Maybe somebody could tell those British boys (on YouTube’s GCN Global Cycling Network) that do all those comparisons of disc vs rim brake, aero wheels vs climbing wheel type comparison tests and construct an STI vs down-tube shifting circuit climbing test and give a whorl to see if there is any real world difference at all.
Last edited by masi61; 01-01-19 at 07:31 PM.
01-01-19, 07:52 PM
#445
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The topic of shifting while standing seems to be coming up a lot. The implication from a majority of the posts I have read is that STI shifters are superior because you can shift while standing. It is then implied that it is too awkward to shift your downtube lever while standing which now puts you at some grave disadvantage, throwing off your torque output and making you have to sit and grind some God awful too high a gear or wildly spin an inefficiently low gear.
To this gross oversimplification I have 2 points to make that have been missed so far:
1) Whether you are climbing with STI or climbing with down tube levers (either friction or index), you should always unweight the pedals. This practice greatly minimizes wear and tear on the drivetrain. So while in mid-climb, if you encounter a terrain change such as a false flat or steeper section you’re going to need to tweak your gear. So if you are standing, in order to unweight your pedals slightly you’re going to either momentarily sit down for your shift or somehow pull up on the pedals slightly (instead of mashing) to very expertly transition from one cog to the next while still standing. So this observation leads me to this practical conclusion about shifting while climbing....
2) Either system whether it be STI’s on the handlebars or traditional downtube levers require similar levels of climbing savvy. I submit that the climbing prowess winner between the 2 formats is that there is no winner. Their effective performance ends up in a tie. Downtube levers have a slight simplicity advantage when climbing out of the saddle since selecting the gear on the downtube keeps the shifting function away from the handlebar area which to me gives me more peace of mind that I can pull on my brake levers vigorously whereas the STI’S sometimes seem like they need to be babied a bit. The STI’s on the other hand have that cockpit quality to them where you can really shift more times to adapt just a little better to minor increases or decreases in elevation. I think it is debatable if keeping your cadence steady in your personal spinning power band nets you any speed gains over a technique where you allow your quads to do the work while you drop your cadence down in the 70’s only to later have a spin-fest and spin out @ 110+ cadence. As I say - it may well be that 2 equally gifted riders with identical fitness could likely take on all kinds of varied terrain change and pack riding scenarios with very similar outcomes.
Maybe somebody could tell those British boys (on YouTube’s GCN Global Cycling Network) that do all those comparisons of disc vs rim brake, aero wheels vs climbing wheel type comparison tests and construct an STI vs down-tube shifting circuit climbing test and give a whorl to see if there is any real world difference at all.
To this gross oversimplification I have 2 points to make that have been missed so far:
1) Whether you are climbing with STI or climbing with down tube levers (either friction or index), you should always unweight the pedals. This practice greatly minimizes wear and tear on the drivetrain. So while in mid-climb, if you encounter a terrain change such as a false flat or steeper section you’re going to need to tweak your gear. So if you are standing, in order to unweight your pedals slightly you’re going to either momentarily sit down for your shift or somehow pull up on the pedals slightly (instead of mashing) to very expertly transition from one cog to the next while still standing. So this observation leads me to this practical conclusion about shifting while climbing....
2) Either system whether it be STI’s on the handlebars or traditional downtube levers require similar levels of climbing savvy. I submit that the climbing prowess winner between the 2 formats is that there is no winner. Their effective performance ends up in a tie. Downtube levers have a slight simplicity advantage when climbing out of the saddle since selecting the gear on the downtube keeps the shifting function away from the handlebar area which to me gives me more peace of mind that I can pull on my brake levers vigorously whereas the STI’S sometimes seem like they need to be babied a bit. The STI’s on the other hand have that cockpit quality to them where you can really shift more times to adapt just a little better to minor increases or decreases in elevation. I think it is debatable if keeping your cadence steady in your personal spinning power band nets you any speed gains over a technique where you allow your quads to do the work while you drop your cadence down in the 70’s only to later have a spin-fest and spin out @ 110+ cadence. As I say - it may well be that 2 equally gifted riders with identical fitness could likely take on all kinds of varied terrain change and pack riding scenarios with very similar outcomes.
Maybe somebody could tell those British boys (on YouTube’s GCN Global Cycling Network) that do all those comparisons of disc vs rim brake, aero wheels vs climbing wheel type comparison tests and construct an STI vs down-tube shifting circuit climbing test and give a whorl to see if there is any real world difference at all.
I didn't over-simplify, you've over-complicated to rationalize around the one really obvious disadvantage of dt shifters.
01-01-19, 08:11 PM
#446
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There you go with the "lazy" judgment. Eliminating the need for a task isn't lazy, it's efficient. Like I said, I like riding in the highest gear possible, and dt makes me shift down earlier than I want to. It's not just that dt makes you plan your shifts, it also limits the choices of when to shift.
I get out of the saddle a lot, shifting in that situation is not a problem for me, and I don't consider it a miscalculation. I maximize my uphill speed that way often. It's a technique that works very well for me, I really don't care if you consider it good technique.
You seem pretty intent on telling people how they should ride and speaking for "most" bicyclists. You'd save yourself a lot of stress if you gave that up.
I get out of the saddle a lot, shifting in that situation is not a problem for me, and I don't consider it a miscalculation. I maximize my uphill speed that way often. It's a technique that works very well for me, I really don't care if you consider it good technique.
You seem pretty intent on telling people how they should ride and speaking for "most" bicyclists. You'd save yourself a lot of stress if you gave that up.
Also since you like to climb out of the saddle, I hope you are not one of the posters who was arguing with me over the merits of spinning up hills and use of compact cranks. For the majority of riders today who do "spin" up hills, that implies mostly climbing in the saddle with hands in the top of the bars. From this position I must point out, that I find reaching down for DT shifters is easier and more comfortable than reaching out to shift the STI.
01-01-19, 08:34 PM
#447
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If you had to use DT shifters, you would accommodate your shifting style to them and by planning your shifting better and in then end, like the other poster said, your performance would not be much different. I struggle sometimes with my DTs now because I've been using exclusively STI for 20+ years and still use them the majority of the time. But I also remember racing with DTs back in the early 90s (against racers who mostly had upgraded to STI/Ergo by that time) and I had no problems competing and even winning some races.
01-01-19, 08:50 PM
#448
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If you had to use DT shifters, you would accommodate your shifting style to them and by planning your shifting better and in then end, like the other poster said, your performance would not be much different. I struggle sometimes with my DTs now because I've been using exclusively STI for 20+ years and still use them the majority of the time. But I also remember racing with DTs back in the early 90s (against racers who mostly had upgraded to STI/Ergo by that time) and I had no problems competing and even winning some races.
Also since you like to climb out of the saddle, I hope you are not one of the posters who was arguing with me over the merits of spinning up hills and use of compact cranks. For the majority of riders today who do "spin" up hills, that implies mostly climbing in the saddle with hands in the top of the bars. From this position I must point out, that I find reaching down for DT shifters is easier and more comfortable than reaching out to shift the STI.
Also since you like to climb out of the saddle, I hope you are not one of the posters who was arguing with me over the merits of spinning up hills and use of compact cranks. For the majority of riders today who do "spin" up hills, that implies mostly climbing in the saddle with hands in the top of the bars. From this position I must point out, that I find reaching down for DT shifters is easier and more comfortable than reaching out to shift the STI.
And no, I am not a spinner. I'm very fond of my 53 teeth up front. I just found your put-downs of spinning and spinners obnoxious and arrogant.
01-01-19, 08:57 PM
#449
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Although handlebar shifters are convenient, they take up valuable real estate at the handlebar that could be used for horns. I like my horns and bell located exactly where my thumb or fingers are to be at the ready.
01-01-19, 09:13 PM
#450
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Regarding spinning, I wasn't putting down "spinners" per se, but the fact that the industry is selling high end racing bikes with compact cranks as standard.