Rolla

I think warranty claims are a poor measure of overall bike quality, anyway. For one thing, lots of claims are dismissed due to user error. For another, a warranteed seatpost isn't necessarily indicative of the quality of an entire bike, let alone an entire manufacturing era. Moreover, warrantees have changed over the decades; an increase or decrease in claims could simply be due to what is covered and for how long.

veganbikes

They can and can't in some cases if a bike is seeing a lot of the same issues then it is an indicator maybe be cautious and especially if new model years come out and don't fix the issues. Of course yes a bike with different component manufacturers on it and only one of those parts fails or has an issue you cannot blame the whole bike unless more stuff happens on other parts of the bike from a different manufacturer. Generally though yeah loads of warranty issues all across the industry from all brands not a great indicator of much other than production isn't always 100% perfect and humans make mistakes or in the case of some recalls some companies are abundantly cautious sometimes do to humans not being capable of simple tasks.

I will say warranty claims rejected not because they aren't warranty but because the owner is say 3 days out of warranty after only 6 months (which has happened) is a good sign of poor quality. I get there are rules and such but a company that is not willing to support their customer with a little grace period on a very short warranty period is bad but the quality of their bikes was bad so to be expected. Also having to fight over warranty is not a good sign which I have had to do. Some cases are rejected for good reason and that is fine but sometimes it is a known issue or an issue they have had consistently and not being able to get support knowing it has been going on is a problem.

Good warranty support though can be a good sign of quality or at least a good sign you are dealing with a company that won't leave you hanging. Anyone can sell a product but can you support it afterwards?!

Jughed

Current bikes have certainly outpaced one thing...


Inflation

livedarklions

You're actually claiming that "today's bikes" is not a broad category?!

Nahhh, you're splitting hairs trying to save a really dumb piece of snark. You know as well as I do that he was trying to draw a larger conclusion on "todays bikes" based on those he had seen. I can't even take seriously the possibility that Kontact was just drawing a conclusion about the bikes he has seen only, that's ridiculous.

Nowhere does prj claim Kontact was lying, just that his claim wasn't true. Stop putting words into people's mouths.

Rolla

Agreed, but a sign of quality is not the same as a measurement of quality.

Absolutely. But I think the larger point here is that whether a given bike has a thousand claims or none at all, it's an inaccurate way to evaluate an entire era of design and manufacturing. So any assertion that "new bikes are [better/worse] than old bikes because of [fewer/more] warranty claims" is not based on a reliable metric.

Koyote

Over the past few years, sure. Over the past few decades, probably not.

Kontact

That hasn't happened. Ultegra piston cracks, crank lamination failing. New Campy needs the shifters epoxied. Cracking DA hood bodies/hydro leaks. Seasonal DOT fluid replacement. Galvanic corrosion everywhere. Enve spoke failures.

On and on.

Maybe my customers were riding too often?

prj71

Better everything. Better bearings, better components, better geometry, better tires etc.

More riding and less wrenching.

mstateglfr 

It isnt a broad category because Kontact is clearly talking about the bikes in his shop today. Thats a specific category and the only one Kontact clearly referred to.
I am not splitting hairs, you just disagree. Thats cool, I accept it. Its funny you say I am splitting hairs and then you go on to point out that prj didnt say Kontact was lying, only that Kontact's first hand claim wasnt true. Wow that is bold.

Once more, prj has no idea where Kontact works, what brands Kontact's shop sells, or any actual details to defend such a claim. But you keep being you and pounce on some perceived injustice you think you found.

mstateglfr 

I would say bearing seals have for sure improved. Headsets and bottom brackets dont need to be relubed after a hint of precipitation and grease doesnt leak out on newer designs like it did on older designs I have worked on.

The rest of your list doesnt seem to support your position that today's bikes are less finicky or labor intensive.
- Tubeless tires are more labor intensive to set up. And depending on terrain, they can be more labor intensive to maintain.
- Electronic shifting requires more knowledge than mechanical and can be more labor intensive to set up.
- Hydraulic disc brakes are more labor intensive to set up and can be more finicky to maintain, depending on many circumstances.
- Fully internal cables are more labor intensive to set up and maintain than external cables.
- Multiple modern BB designs result in crank arms that are off-center, create premature BB wear, and make noise even when properly installed.

But yeah, in general headset, hub, and bottom bracket cartridge bearings do seem to be designed better and require less maintenance compared to equal products from 30-40 years ago.

Eric F

Hmmm...My experiences have been different on some of those.

Eric F

I've never had to replace a BB as often as I have with my newest MTB. Next time it fails, I'll be looking for an alternate option, and will probably be spending a LOT more money.

I definitely agree about internal cable routing. Replacing cables used to be a quick process.

mstateglfr 

Ha, yeah I half threw prj a bone there. I think some bottom bracket designs suck compared to others, but the different designs have obviously opened up more options for frame design.
I was more so thinking about old designs where caged bearings on bottom bracket spindles and headsets lacked any seals. Or where looseball hubs would be dry as a bone compared to modern looseball hubs and cartridge hubs.

rydabent

Dont get me wrong, in that everything has to be the latest. Actually I think the bikes produced around 1990 with down tube shifters. and click shifting were probably the zenith of bikes. They so mechanically perfect with almost no cables flapping in the wind. That is until something really fantastic that changes everything comes along.

livedarklions

Seriously? You can't tell the difference between saying someone is lying and saying what they say is untrue? There's this concept of being mistaken or wrong you are perhaps unfamiliar with.

You are the pouncer--you do this "hah hah, you said this stupid thing I just made up" bit all the time.

Rolla

A shifting mechanism that required the rider to let go of the handlebar was the "zenith of bikes"? How absurd.

If your cables are "flapping in the wind," something is very wrong with your set-up.

phughes

Eric F

IMO...The development of dual-control levers was a more significant advance to the operation of a bicycle than anything else since.

mstateglfr 

Yes, I am aware that when someone says something that is incorrect, that doesnt necessarily mean they are lying. They could have bad info, but think its correct, therefore they are not lying because to lie requires intent to deceive.

Kontact said what he has experienced and prj said what Kontact experienced isnt true. No proof otherwise and no actual knowledge to support such a position, but confident to just claim that what Kontact said wasnt true.

That is funny to me. Ignorant confidence is funny because its absurd. Thats why I posted the funny recap.

Here is where all this gets really funny to me(again, I am entertained by the absurd). You took issue with my recap, even though it was accurate and came up with some terrible example that doesnt actually compare. I then explain why that is bad and continue to point out that Kontact's comment was accused of not being true, that Kontact was accused of being wrong. Eventually I liken it to smd saying Kontact is lying and you jump on that, then off we go on another argument over a single word that was eventually used well after you started crying about my posts.

Meanwhile, you have yet to even ask prj for any justification on telling Kontact that none of Kontact's experience is true. How does prj know it isnt true?...you seem to not care in the least. Instead, you want to bicker over me laughing at how funny it is for prj to confidently speak about something he doesnt know.

I am well aware that saying something which is untrue does not necessarily mean a lie is being spoken. It can mean that, but it neednt always mean that.
Based on prj's comment, I interpreted the post to mean he thinks Kontact is lying. When someone speaks of a personal experience and then they are told none of it is true, there is very little room to argue that the person has bad info and is therefore mistaken and not lying.
With that said, please allow me to retract my single comment about lying in post 100. I have edited it. Now that this egregious injustice is rectified, any chance you want to cry at prj about how he is telling people their experiences arent true without any proof? That certainly seems like something thats right up your alley.

Rolla

Noooo!! You got sucked into the vortex!

livedarklions

Nope, reframe all you want, but he obviously meant that his experience was giving him a false impression if today's bikes. No one is stupid enough to say the straw man thing you claimed he did. I only called you on it because this is a recurring habit of yours.

PRJ and Kontact have been airing out their disagreement pretty civilly but you have been so fixated on the one post that you didn't notice it.

Camilo

This bears repeating.

mstateglfr 

uh...I pointed out and commented on something that others also pointed out. I then moved on.
Your crying foul has since fixated me(us) on it. Strong work there.***


I checked the shared calendar and your day for policing the forum isn't until January 15th. Stop working off duty.

SurferRosa

Watch some video of vintage, pre-1985 TDF. There are no "cables flapping in the wind."

veganbikes

Do you mean Zenith like the old TVs? My Grandmother had one. Not what I would want these days. Downtube shifting was great back when it was popular because they hadn't figured out integrated brakes and shifters in a meaningful way till the late 80s.

Flapping cables sounds like a set up issue, both of the bikes I owned with downtube shifting never had flapping cables!