Rick

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Some years ago the bicycle industry teamed up with the CPSC so they could sell the reflector as the only thing needed for safety. the nieve puplic let them get ayay with it. Most states require at least a headlight and a rear reflector. They have never updated the reflectors for bicycles. Their is a very narrow angle at which the reflectors will reflect the light back. Their is also a distance problem at which the headlights of a following car will be effective so they can see a reflection. The most effective reflector is the rear one and they don't even have that one right. I believe in lights my B&M dino taillight has a built in reflector that reflects light back close up and far away. Unlike Germany Where bicycle lights are standard on most bicycles. lights are a specialty item in the US. I ordered my Co-Motion Pangea Rohloff with the lights. When I went to Pick up my bicycle The headlight was mounted and the wires were not run. I had ordered a specalty item The Schmidt Son SL model of their dino hub. Because it is possible the dino lights might fail. Reflectors are important for a backup. Unlike lights old school or quality QRs will not fail and need no backup. functionally illiterate people need backups on QRs and I accept their limited IQ on this. When I ordered my bicycle I let the mechanic know I needed the brakes wired motorcycle style. He did it wrong. He told me some lame thing about the CPSC and insurance. This is illiteracy in its purest form.

tomato coupe

There's a bit of irony in this ...

Maelochs

I didn't want to be the first one to comment ... the mods keep an eye on me ......

shelbyfv

It's so bad it must be intentional.

tomato coupe

Yes, of course, I assumed it was intentional.

smd4

I looked and I looked, and I tried pronouncing it, and I finally got it! It's "appeasing."

Off to do the Jumble.

cyccommute 

To quote our friends across the pond: “That’s a right load of old codswallop.” If the bicycle industry teamed up with the Consumer Product Safety Commission it must have been many more than “some years ago”…like 50 years ago. The reflector rules on bicycles have been in effect since 1973. Lights of that era were barely better than reflectors, including generator lights. Automobile lights were barely better than reflectors. Big Reflector isn’t out there to keep the use of lights down.

All 50 states require a white light on the front of a bicycle operating at night. Some states, like mine, only require a reflector on the rear although a rear light is allowed.

As for setting up bicycles with brakes motorcycle style, your mechanic doesn’t understand the regulations. The Code of Federal Regulations says in 16 CFR 1512

Rick

The bicycle manufacturing industry didn't want to tool up to have lights on bicycles. It was fought out in the courts.
If the shop mechanic had read the CPRC info completely on setup of the brakes I wouldn't have had to redo the setup myself.

smd4

The point was not about reflectors and/or their effectiveness. I was countering wolfchild's silly suggestion that removing "lawyer lips" was about the stupidest thing he'd ever heard of, as if he had never removed a "safety" feature such as reflectors or dork disks. As of today, he hasn't answered my question. I also assume he must lather, rinse and repeat, according to instructions.

Maelochs

Not sure what factual basis underlies all this .... CPRC mandated reflectors because most bikes came with them anyway, because ... they are a really good idea and were a great idea fifty years ago when bike lights were actually bike dims. Maybe you don't remember the "industry standard" rim-pressure generator which was great if you were pedaling madly and pretty much shut off if you were at an intersection .... which is probably the most important time to be seen.

Rear reflectors were pretty much standard too .... everyone know that cars had headlights, but a reflector would show up way before the rest of the bike and rider ... it just made sense. It isn't like the CPRC Invented reflectors. They just made a law .... as much to have power as anything else.

The idea that bike manufacturers would be mandated to provide lights has never been considered, to my knowledge. If you have other information, please post it.

While not definitive, I found this (https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/in...he-usa.139668/) which suggests that the Consumer Product Safety Act of 1972 first mandated reflectors on bikes. Possibly this was in response to a sort of "bike boom" in the late '60s and early '70s when English racers and "ten speeds" became very popular and readily available. Perhaps some people saw an increase in road cycling (transport cycling) and decided to make some laws .... you know how people like to make laws.

If you look closely you can see a rear reflector on some of the 1961 Schwinns here (https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCa...winn-catalogs/) .... but I don't see one on the original Sting Ray (though they did come with a reflector on the seat or sissy bar eventually.)

Apparently some of the children's models even came with headlights (perhaps reflecting the fact that kids used them for primary transport) while the adult versions didn't--perhaps reflecting the fact that adults on bikes were racing (or wanting to.)

In any case, I have no information about the bike industry being forced to provide lighting

wolfchild

To answer your question. None of my bikes came with reflectors or dork discs. Only cheap BSOs from department stores come with reflectors and dork discs, but I don't purchase my bikes from department stores. ..I don't even consider reflectors or dork discs to be a safety feature on a bicycle. And I'll say it again it's pointless to grind off lawyer tabs just to save few grams of weight or few seconds of time when removing/installing a wheel. Do whatever you want, personally I refuse to grind off lawyer tabs because they are a non-issue.

cyccommute 

Gonna need a citation on that. That said, most people have no need for lights on bicycles and those that do don’t what the weak lights that manufacturers would put on bicycles. Fifteen to 20 years ago, light technology was pretty poor. Cheap lights that would be OEM on bicycles now are still poor. As an experienced night cyclists, I wouldn’t want what manufacturers would put on bicycles.

The shop mechanic probably never read the CPSC information at all. Nor did the shop owner. Most people haven’t. I can understand why they would be hesitant to set up a bike the way you want.

smd4

Of course they're an issue--if "quick release" means anything to you. But of course I don't have to worry about them either, because my bike, like virtually all bikes back in the day, didn't have or need them.

If they're such a wonderful safety feature, why not have something similar on the rear dropouts too?

cyccommute 

Sorry but reflectors are required on all bicycles sold via retail. CSPC requirements

Unless your bike is a children’s sidewalk bike, it is supposed to come from the retailer with reflectors. I agree that reflectors (and dork discs) are of dubious usefulness but reflectors are a requirement at point of sale.

Lawyer lips are not a CSPC requirement. They are something that manufacturers put on because people are ignorant about how to use quick releases. They do prevent wheel ejection with disc brakes. Few bicycles prior to the introduction of disc brakes had forks without them which is probably why wheel ejection is rare.

smd4

Well, I don't recall that being the situation at all. Lower end biked had clips of various designs, but most "adult" bikes didn't have any retention devices.

wolfchild

Majority of bikes sold through LBS don't come with reflectors.

KerryIrons

Yup. Have removed the lawyer lips from every fork that had them.

Kapusta

Disc became ubiquitous on mtbs well before TA did. It was fine.

I think the safety “issue” is likely all conjecture without any real world evidence to back it up.

If there is a difference in safety between QR and TA on disc forks, I’ll bet it is the same difference as with QR vs TA for rim.

In short, I do think TA is a little more idiot proof, but that is true for both rim and disc.

Rick

Sarcasm aside: Back in the seventies the bicycling manufactures Best friend the CPSC supported them in their mania that lights on bicycles were not required for safety. They didn't want the expense. Yes the old lights were dim, but cars could still see you much sooner. I used the old bottle generator setup with the incandescent bulbs. The lawyer lips are their for those who need them. I like the design of the QR and will not tolerate **** on my nice expensive bicycle. I even purchased a file made for filing the SS dropouts. The bicycle shop that quoted the CPSC incorrectly caused me more expense and irritation.

stan01

To the OP's concerns about the safety of Q/R's on disc braked bikes. The T/A system is a recent invention. Q/R disc braked bikes have been around since the mtb scene became popular in the late 80's. All disc braked bikes until the last decade have been designed with the Q/R system. High end low end, it didn't matter...they all came with dropouts for Q/R wheels. So with that many bikes out there that have used this system for so long, why now has it become a major safety issue? As others have alluded to it is the combination of lawyers & user error.

The concern is that the greater braking force that is experienced on the frame can cause a loosely installed q/r to eat into the dropout/frame or completely open the lever without warning. The clamping force needed to match that of a T/A with a Q/R system is very high. Meaning that it will take a very high force needed to close the Q/R properly. Which also means that its a B@#%h trying to get the lever open if you get a flat.

This issue has been highlighted because of the advent of carbon frames...specifically gravel bikes. Who wants to see their $10k bike binned with chewed up dropouts??? FYI my aluminum gravel bike that I built up myself has mechanical hydro disc brakes with Q/R wheels. I've been riding it for 2 yrs now with no issue. If properly installed with a good set of Q/R levers, there shouldn't be any concern as long as its not a carbon frame. FYI extra Also I install tires without the need for tire levers😎💪🤣

Maelochs

I just checked the Giant website because I had the same understanding (and probably did the same research) you did ... and none of Giant's current road or off-road bikes are apparently offered with reflectors or dork discs (as per photos on the Giant website.) Most of their bikes do not include pedals, and the ones that do may include reflectors but I could not tell.

I am not sure if this is because Giant strips the bikes for photo purposes, or for some other reason. I am merely reporting data, not interpreting it.

Possibly the reflectors are attached at bike shops, or included in the box for mail order ... as I recall the last time I bought boxed bikes (from Bikes Direct and from Fuji) this might have been the case, though my memory might be inaccurate because ... who care about reflectors?)

In any case .... there might be workarounds to the CSPC mandates. I don't know.

Maelochs

For reference ... (https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/contend-ar-1). I checked several bikes in several categories ....

cyccommute 

You missed the part about “prior to the introduction of disc brakes”. Most every fork I’ve bought since the mid 90s has had lawyer lips on them. In the early 90s most bikes didn’t have lawyer lips but that changed prior to the introduction and widespread use of disc brakes.

cyccommute 

I just bought a brand new 2023 bike for my wife from a bike shop. It’s the first complete bike I’ve bought from a bike shop since the early 2000s. Here’s a picture before modification. There is a rear reflector, a front reflector, reflecting sidewalls (allowed under CPSC rules), and pedal reflectors. That’s the full slate of required reflectors.



Further here is a picture of the bikes at a local shop I stole from the Intertubz. All the bikes pointing towards the camera have front reflectors while those pointing away have rear reflectors. I assume that they all have front and rear reflectors. They also have wheel reflectors.




Granted, the reflectors will be stripped off by the consumer but they are sold with reflectors attached.

Of course they aren’t going to take catalog/internet pictures of the bikes with reflectors. They don’t show them with dork discs either. That’s just the way that the bikes are marketed. That’s not necessarily the way the bikes are sold.



Most often the reflectors are mounted at the factory prior to packing for shipping. I’ve gotten bikes from Bikes Direct with a separate box of reflectors and with the reflectors mounted.

There’s no need for any work arounds to the CSPC regulations. Those only apply at point of sale…retail sale, that is. Once the bike is in your hands, removing the reflectors aren’t an issue.

wolfchild

It must depend on the area where the bikes are sold because majority of bikes sold through LBS here don't come with reflectors, this is especially true for MTBs, road bikes, gravel bikes and most hybrids. Only some bikes which are marketed as commuter or city bikes may include reflectors.