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Technical questions for the retro grouches on here

Old 04-07-24, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Disc brakes were ported over to road bikes because our latest gen of road riders grew up on mountain bikes and are too young to know that there are a lot of so-called recent innovations that don't belong on road bikes. That is, these 'innovations' are heavy, fussy, expensive and unnecessary, and actually detract from performance road riding.
Absurd.
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Old 04-07-24, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Disc brakes were ported over to road bikes because our latest gen of road riders grew up on mountain bikes...
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Absurd.
Yep, everybody knows it's because the latest generation of road riders grew up eating avocado toast.
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Old 04-07-24, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Yep, everybody knows it's because the latest generation of road riders grew up eating avocado toast.
There is a logical reason for everything and you, sir, totally nailed it. All hail the mighty avocado 🥑 🥑 (Edit: even though they are now controlled by the cartels - but that’s another argument)
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Old 04-07-24, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
If batteries existed before fire, would we still roast marshmallows when camping?
I donít like marshmallows.
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Old 04-07-24, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rsbob
There is a logical reason for everything and you, sir, totally nailed it. All hail the mighty avocado 🥑 🥑 (Edit: even though they are now controlled by the cartels - but thatís another argument)
a spicy guacamole spread is pretty tasty. slather it on some bwak bwak mmmmrhmm.
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Old 04-08-24, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by redshift1

Well it was tried....Buell I think.

So there it is then, the most logical progression for bicycle disc brakes.
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Old 04-08-24, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by georges1
Agreed we can give the examples of shimano cable eating shifters and with dura ace and ultegra bonded cranks which previous models were forged. A friend of mine said "Old tech that works is good tech"
I think you have beaten these 2 examples to death in recent threads simply to validate your personal preference for older tech. Neither are particularly convincing for anyone wishing to move forward. They are certainly not good reasons to avoid current 12-speed Shimano.
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Old 04-08-24, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I think you have beaten these 2 examples to death in recent threads simply to validate your personal preference for older tech. Neither are particularly convincing for anyone wishing to move forward. They are certainly not good reasons to avoid current 12-speed Shimano.
Let me ask you a question, are 12 speeds shimano cranskets subject to fail (bonded instead of being forged previously) ? Are the 12 speed shimano shifters more durable than their 10 speed predecessors ? I have seen several bikes equipped with 7800,6600, 5500 going strong for over a decade and just because something isn't something new or the latest tech it doesn't mean that it is worse. I have seen on the other hand 12 speed equipped having issues , so where do you think a customer will go ? for something reliable and durable and not for soemthing finnicky and not so reliable.
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Old 04-08-24, 05:37 AM
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I imagine all these anti-progress people going to barbershop expecting someone to bleed them or apply leeches when they feel ill .... feel ill because of 12-speed and disc brakes ......
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Old 04-08-24, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by georges1
Let me ask you a question, are 12 speeds shimano cranskets subject to fail (bonded instead of being forged previously) ? Are the 12 speed shimano shifters more durable than their 10 speed predecessors ? I have seen several bikes equipped with 7800,6600, 5500 going strong for over a decade and just because something isn't something new or the latest tech it doesn't mean that it is worse. I have seen on the other hand 12 speed equipped having issues , so where do you think a customer will go ? for something reliable and durable and not for soemthing finnicky and not so reliable.
I could be wrong, but I donít think any of the 12-speed Shimano cranks have suffered a bonding failure. I thought it was related to specific batches of 11-speed Ultegra and DA only. Itís a real clanger for Shimano, but certainly not a reason to avoid ALL modern drivetrains. Modern drivetrain reliability is very high and there are many reasons to choose it over previous generations.

To declare modern drivetrains as being ďfinnicky and not so reliableĒ is a weak argument against them.

So what issues have you actually witnessed on 12-speed drivetrains? Is it going to be your favourite viral internet video again or have you got a more personal anecdote?
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Old 04-08-24, 06:38 AM
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After reading through the entire thread, I get the sense that the OP is one of these. Now to figure out which one of the usual suspects gave birth to it. I don't think it was Keyser Soze.

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Old 04-08-24, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
Isn't there a section called Trollheim?
I think General is the new Trollheim.
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Old 04-08-24, 07:26 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I could be wrong, but I don’t think any of the 12-speed Shimano cranks have suffered a bonding failure. I thought it was related to specific batches of 11-speed Ultegra and DA only. It’s a real clanger for Shimano, but certainly not a reason to avoid ALL modern drivetrains. Modern drivetrain reliability is very high and there are many reasons to choose it over previous generations.

To declare modern drivetrains as being “finnicky and not so reliable” is a weak argument against them.

So what issues have you actually witnessed on 12-speed drivetrains? Is it going to be your favourite viral internet video again or have you got a more personal anecdote?
Not everyone finds it necessary to change of drivetrain every 5 years. Mechanical 12 speed is ok if you are fine to change your whole drivetrain or if you are ok to go after the latest tech. And yes there are issues with 12 speeds as it was pointed here Issues with Dura Ace 9200, and on bike forums too in that thread Problems with 12 speed ultegra. If there weren't issues with 12 speeds , there wouldn't be threads complaining about these problems. I don't have any anedocte nor video ,so this is out of context.
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Old 04-08-24, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
I imagine all these anti-progress people going to barbershop expecting someone to bleed them or apply leeches when they feel ill .... .
This is best joke I have ever heard in a while Thank you
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Old 04-08-24, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
I imagine all these anti-progress people going to barbershop expecting someone to bleed them or apply leeches when they feel ill .... feel ill because of 12-speed and disc brakes ......
Coincidentally, I just read a comment by Ralf Hutter of Kraftwerk, on the topic of rock musicians hating synths and modern techno music. He said that when those musicians go to dentists they expect the latest equipment rather than having a bad tooth pulled with pliers, but for music, it's got to be electric guitars from the 1950's.
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Old 04-08-24, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I think that’s more an indication of how primitive mountain bikes were in those days. If we put away our rose-tinted glasses, they had poor geometry, poor damping, inadequate headset sizing, chain slapping, clunky drivetrains, stupid narrow bars and of course crappy brakes. There was really very little effort going into mountain bike design until well after the turn of the century.
Well, knowing that Joe Murray introduced the ultra sloping geometry on Kona and sloping geometry other brands which defined the modern MTB and also when the 1 1/8 was introduced as a standard and shimano introduced the sti rapidfire and spd pedals in early 1991, MTBs were much more reliable than before. Shimano with the Deore DX, LX,XT and XTR got the largest market share in terms of bike equipment ahead of sram. The vbrakes weren't crappy you just needed to choose the models that didn't have a deformable parallelograms or use magura hydraulic brakes. Narrow bars have an advantage , they can allow you to take twistier turns without being stuck in a passage where there are two tree trunks close together for example or in very narrow trails.
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Old 04-08-24, 07:51 AM
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With "progress" comes it's own set of "progressive problems"

Pro-gress, re-gress .... I see no difference as the status quo remains the same. Two sides of the same worthless coin.
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Old 04-08-24, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by georges1
Not everyone finds it necessary to change of drivetrain every 5 years. Mechanical 12 speed is ok if you are fine to change your whole drivetrain or if you are ok to go after the latest tech. And yes there are issues with 12 speeds as it was pointed here Issues with Dura Ace 9200, and on bike forums too in that thread Problems with 12 speed ultegra. If there weren't issues with 12 speeds , there wouldn't be threads complaining about these problems. I don't have any anedocte nor video ,so this is out of context.
Nobody is suggesting that you need to change your drivetrain, or your brakes or bikes. Claiming that newer systems are inferior and unreliable is what I find highly questionable here. Are you telling me that nobody ever had a mechanical issue with 10-speed drivetrains?

Most higher end drivetrains are highly reliable. I have had hardly any issues at all over the last 5 decades. So whether or not I change them comes down mainly to their features and operation. I take reliability for granted.
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Old 04-08-24, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Nobody is suggesting that you need to change your drivetrain, or your brakes or bikes. Claiming that newer systems are inferior and unreliable is what I find highly questionable here. Are you telling me that nobody ever had a mechanical issue with 10-speed drivetrains?

Most higher end drivetrains are highly reliable. I have had hardly any issues at all over the last 5 decades. So whether or not I change them comes down mainly to their features and operation. I take reliability for granted.
Aren't you the same guy that said this?

Originally Posted by PeteHski
I think that’s more an indication of how primitive mountain bikes were in those days. If we put away our rose-tinted glasses, they had poor geometry, poor damping, inadequate headset sizing, chain slapping, clunky drivetrains, stupid narrow bars and of course crappy brakes. There was really very little effort going into mountain bike design until well after the turn of the century.
It certainly seems that you are saying that we really do need to change everything every 5 years or else we are going to die. You certainly seem to be suggesting the old tech is inferior and unreliable. The items you list above didn't seem to interfer with the mountain bike experience of those of us who lived through their use. Chain slapping wasn't a problem for those of us who knew to shift up on downhills. Drivetrains weren't (and aren't) clunky if they are properly adjusted. And brakes were never as crappy as people make them out to be. Those of us who lived through the early years of mountain biking rode the same places that people are riding today.

Take off your brown colored glasses when it comes to old tech.
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Old 04-08-24, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by georges1
Well, knowing that Joe Murray introduced the ultra sloping geometry on Kona and sloping geometry other brands which defined the modern MTB and also when the 1 1/8 was introduced as a standard and shimano introduced the sti rapidfire and spd pedals in early 1991, MTBs were much more reliable than before. Shimano with the Deore DX, LX,XT and XTR got the largest market share in terms of bike equipment ahead of sram. The vbrakes weren't crappy you just needed to choose the models that didn't have a deformable parallelograms or use magura hydraulic brakes. Narrow bars have an advantage , they can allow you to take twistier turns without being stuck in a passage where there are two tree trunks close together for example or in very narrow trails.
If you still wish to believe that mountain bikes havenít improved in leaps and bounds over the last 20 years then there isnít much I can say really.

Your point about narrow trees and bars is something I pay close attention to as some of my local single track is very tight and twisty. But in reality wide modern bars rarely present a serious limitation. My current bars are 760 mm and I can still guide them through the tightest of gaps. Iím not saying they are ideal for those conditions, but they donít occur enough to make me want to cut them down. I think I had 680 mm bars (relatively wide for the time) on my bike 20 years ago and they were no faster through tight tree sections.
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Old 04-08-24, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Aren't you the same guy that said this?



It certainly seems that you are saying that we really do need to change everything every 5 years or else we are going to die. You certainly seem to be suggesting the old tech is inferior and unreliable. The items you list above didn't seem to interfer with the mountain bike experience of those of us who lived through their use. Chain slapping wasn't a problem for those of us who knew to shift up on downhills. Drivetrains weren't (and aren't) clunky if they are properly adjusted. And brakes were never as crappy as people make them out to be. Those of us who lived through the early years of mountain biking rode the same places that people are riding today.

Take off your brown colored glasses when it comes to old tech.
Really?

I ride the same places too, but faster than I did 20 years ago and with less crashes. Mountain bikes are just that much more efficient. Whether or not you care is just a personal choice.

Yes I did find older mountain bikes less reliable. They were much worse in muddy conditions (drivetrain and brakes), far more prone to dropping chains and headsets wore out quickly. I still enjoyed riding them but will not be going back to those issues. Obviously you sound like a much more skilled rider as I am a total newb when it comes to shifting bicycle gears and maintenance.
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Old 04-08-24, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Nobody is suggesting that you need to change your drivetrain, or your brakes or bikes. Claiming that newer systems are inferior and unreliable is what I find highly questionable here. Are you telling me that nobody ever had a mechanical issue with 10-speed drivetrains?

Most higher end drivetrains are highly reliable. I have had hardly any issues at all over the last 5 decades. So whether or not I change them comes down mainly to their features and operation. I take reliability for granted.
I always had high end drive trains and the XT 780T tranmission which equips all my older MTBs since 2015 and also mynewe MTBS has been bullet proof despite rain, mud and snow. One of my mountain bikes that I haven't used in a while ,I have used it again and I had never had a mishap. All the ones I know who have riden MTB with me, never had a single whether with their slx, xt or xtr mtb 20/30 speeds equiped bikes nor with their dura ace ,ultegra and 105 20 speed equiped road bikes. The 10 speeds from shimano is a solid value and price on older 10speed pare parts is getting more expensive over the time.
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Old 04-08-24, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
If you still wish to believe that mountain bikes havenít improved in leaps and bounds over the last 20 years then there isnít much I can say really.

Your point about narrow trees and bars is something I pay close attention to as some of my local single track is very tight and twisty. But in reality wide modern bars rarely present a serious limitation. My current bars are 760 mm and I can still guide them through the tightest of gaps. Iím not saying they are ideal for those conditions, but they donít occur enough to make me want to cut them down. I think I had 680 mm bars (relatively wide for the time) on my bike 20 years ago and they were no faster through tight tree sections.
The largest MTB bars are on my Gary Fisher, my Treks, my Kona, my Jamis and my Scapin, the Merida and the Giant have the shortest bars. I don't plan to cut my larger bars too, I use the bike fitted with those on largers trails.
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Old 04-08-24, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Really?

I ride the same places too, but faster than I did 20 years ago and with less crashes. Mountain bikes are just that much more efficient. Whether or not you care is just a personal choice.
Is that technology or technique? I ride bikes that are 20+ year old in places where I used to ride 30 to 40 years ago and don't crash as much as I did when I started out. I learned how not to crash. My bikes are still capable of riding anywhere a modern bike can.

Yes I did find older mountain bikes less reliable. They were much worse in muddy conditions (drivetrain and brakes), far more prone to dropping chains and headsets wore out quickly. I still enjoyed riding them but will not be going back to those issues. Obviously you sound like a much more skilled rider as I am a total newb when it comes to shifting bicycle gears and maintenance.
Again, I'm riding bikes that are 20+ years old. I avoid riding in muddy conditions because I don't want to be "that guy" who leaves a reminder that muddy trails shouldn't be ridden on. My X-9 front/XO rear drivetrain doesn't drop chains because I know how to adjust them and how to shift them. I don't own a headset that is less than about 20 years old and, oddly, I haven't worn out a headset since manufacturers stopped putting threaded headsets on bicycles.

Perhaps you aren't a skilled at maintenance as you think you are.
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Old 04-08-24, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by georges1
The 10 speeds from shimano is a solid value and price on older 10speed pare parts is getting more expensive over the time.
If parts are getting more expensive over time then the value proposition is falling.
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