35mm v 45mm
05-30-24 | 07:12 AM
#51
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This is what is confusing my choice. WHY would someone buying a slick speed-designed gravel tire go with the 45mm ??
https://www.schwalbetires.com/Schwal...ne-RS-11654390
https://www.schwalbetires.com/Schwal...ne-RS-11654390
The 45mm will also allow lower pressure (always a positive with tubeless sealant effectiveness) and a more comfortable ride.
If your bike has clearance for 45mm and you are not racing competitively on smooth roads, then why would you go with the 35 mm version? The weight and speed difference will be insignificant for your purpose and pretty much everything else will be worse on the narrower tyre.
Last edited by PeteHski; 05-30-24 at 07:39 AM.
05-30-24 | 01:01 PM
#52
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From: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, 86 De Rosa Pro, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Okay, Mr. Squirtdad ... just to make sure we are not talking at cross-purposes ... i respect you too much to want to bicker ..... but it seems you overlook points I make selectively.
it has been amply demonstrated that except on the track, tires in the 25-28 mm range, at lower pressures, because they are more supple, ride faster than 19s or 23s at rock-hard pressures ... which was the accepted belief what, 20 years ago? I know in about 2015 the idea that wider, softer tires were faster RELATIVE TO the old rock-hard skinnies was well understood.
However, i also keep saying that this is not a linear relationship ... if it was, fat bikes with five-inch tires at three pounds would be the fastest.
The question of loose jerseys is nonsense ... Rene Herse is saying there is Zero increased aero drag despite doubled tire frontal area. Ask an engineer ..... but as you say, even you don't swallow All their kool-aid.
Please stop tryjng to prove 28as at 90 or 72 are faster in most circumstances than 19s 0r 23s at 160 0r 140 psi. Everyone knows that. Please stop telling me facts everyone knows about rides riding 30s, 32s, or 34s for the cobbles. That has been discussed for a couple seasons now. All the info is included in my considerations .... some of it is mentioned specifically.
My point is that "wider tires are faster" is the equivalent of "lighter is better." There is a limit beyond which the generalization becomes inaccurate.
You say that World Tour teams are on wider tires ... so do I. What you ignore is when I ask why they aren't on Rene Herse super-supple 52s or something .... since those guys make more money the more they win and place, if 45s or 55s were faster, that is what they would use. if 45s were faster, every bike in Paris-Roubaix would be on 45s ... at least.
I do not care what Rene Herse says to sell tires. I pointed out a bold-faced lie in the very first line of their advertisement ...
Anyway ... please, ride what you like. I Do Not Care. Truly i do not care if you hate every ride, though, as a fellow cyclist, I hope that every cyclist has a great ride every time, because I know cycling can be such a source of joy in many different ways. But we don't know each other. If i died tomorrow ... you would never know. Yo would figure i finally got banned for being such a richard.
Still ... i respect what you post, as a rule, and I do not want to in any way inhibit you from riding whatever you like. I don't want to limit the choices of riding styles you might choose from or even invent. I have no desire to in any way cause you any unhappiness.
Still ... why aren't all the World Tour teams on fat bikes? After all tire width and aero doesn't affect speed ........
Just having fun here. Please be well and do good.
it has been amply demonstrated that except on the track, tires in the 25-28 mm range, at lower pressures, because they are more supple, ride faster than 19s or 23s at rock-hard pressures ... which was the accepted belief what, 20 years ago? I know in about 2015 the idea that wider, softer tires were faster RELATIVE TO the old rock-hard skinnies was well understood.
However, i also keep saying that this is not a linear relationship ... if it was, fat bikes with five-inch tires at three pounds would be the fastest.
The question of loose jerseys is nonsense ... Rene Herse is saying there is Zero increased aero drag despite doubled tire frontal area. Ask an engineer ..... but as you say, even you don't swallow All their kool-aid.
Please stop tryjng to prove 28as at 90 or 72 are faster in most circumstances than 19s 0r 23s at 160 0r 140 psi. Everyone knows that. Please stop telling me facts everyone knows about rides riding 30s, 32s, or 34s for the cobbles. That has been discussed for a couple seasons now. All the info is included in my considerations .... some of it is mentioned specifically.
My point is that "wider tires are faster" is the equivalent of "lighter is better." There is a limit beyond which the generalization becomes inaccurate.
You say that World Tour teams are on wider tires ... so do I. What you ignore is when I ask why they aren't on Rene Herse super-supple 52s or something .... since those guys make more money the more they win and place, if 45s or 55s were faster, that is what they would use. if 45s were faster, every bike in Paris-Roubaix would be on 45s ... at least.
I do not care what Rene Herse says to sell tires. I pointed out a bold-faced lie in the very first line of their advertisement ...
Anyway ... please, ride what you like. I Do Not Care. Truly i do not care if you hate every ride, though, as a fellow cyclist, I hope that every cyclist has a great ride every time, because I know cycling can be such a source of joy in many different ways. But we don't know each other. If i died tomorrow ... you would never know. Yo would figure i finally got banned for being such a richard.
Still ... i respect what you post, as a rule, and I do not want to in any way inhibit you from riding whatever you like. I don't want to limit the choices of riding styles you might choose from or even invent. I have no desire to in any way cause you any unhappiness.
Still ... why aren't all the World Tour teams on fat bikes? After all tire width and aero doesn't affect speed ........
Just having fun here. Please be well and do good.
I put the rene herse info up as good information for people to read and make their own conclusions from
I find some of his ideas interesting, if not counter intuitive, like that his handle bar bag us more aero than no handle bar bag, acting as a fairing. and his use of mini fenders on the tires it increase aero....both of which are not UCI legal, but are for the randonneur type rides he does.
I certainly don't support the idea that there bigger tires alone make whole bike faster.... way too much other stuff involved
I think it is fun to note the little things when watching pro riders, like their helmet straps are so tight and close that the get tan lines.....not sure if that is safety or just maxing aero
I agree there are to many generalizations, in what is complex system even for non tour rides
FWIW I ride 32mm rene herse on my Kirk (will soon be trying some FMB tubulars...just because). I ride 28's on my other 700cc bike....and am frame limited to that size (currently 28 gravel king, but they measure 25.4, so will try dome 28mm rene herse to see how those do) and 27 1 1/4 panracers (~32mm) on run around town upright bike
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Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can.
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can.
Last edited by squirtdad; 05-31-24 at 11:38 AM.
05-30-24 | 01:52 PM
#53
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From: Altadena, CA
Bikes: 2025 Ritte Esprit, 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2022 Trek Supercaliber
Gravel pro, fat tire pimp, and marginal gains nutjob, Dylan Johnson, recently spent time in a wind tunnel with Silca, looking at a variety of aspects of his gravel race bike in order to optimize efficiency for the 10+ hour torture of Unbound. I thought there was some interesting results. Dylan is a bit of an odd-ball, but he bring receipts.
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RIP 01/08/25...2022 Trek Supercaliber, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2018 Trek Procaliber SL Singlespeed, 2017 Bear BR1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
RIP 01/08/25...2022 Trek Supercaliber, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2018 Trek Procaliber SL Singlespeed, 2017 Bear BR1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Last edited by Eric F; 05-30-24 at 03:07 PM.
05-30-24 | 02:43 PM
#54
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From: Altadena, CA
Bikes: 2025 Ritte Esprit, 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2022 Trek Supercaliber
All that said, I also have a road bike and MTB that I ride regularly.
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RIP 01/08/25...2022 Trek Supercaliber, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2018 Trek Procaliber SL Singlespeed, 2017 Bear BR1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
RIP 01/08/25...2022 Trek Supercaliber, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2018 Trek Procaliber SL Singlespeed, 2017 Bear BR1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
05-30-24 | 03:04 PM
#55
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Agree with that. I had about 12k CAD budget for my bike. Decided instead of picking the 12k version I could get everything I wanted on lower trim and add a couple wheel sets and accessories.
First extra wheel set will be carbon with a gravel tire and after reading these posts, a 45mm Shwalbe tubeless. This way i can play with pressure and see what the fuss is about
have not decided on second set. Either a dedicated studded winter or a skinny summer road. Waiting to see how this winter goes with the Marathon plus 38 and the tubeles 45mm
First extra wheel set will be carbon with a gravel tire and after reading these posts, a 45mm Shwalbe tubeless. This way i can play with pressure and see what the fuss is about
have not decided on second set. Either a dedicated studded winter or a skinny summer road. Waiting to see how this winter goes with the Marathon plus 38 and the tubeles 45mm
Last edited by MikeDeason; 05-30-24 at 03:08 PM.
05-31-24 | 10:21 AM
#56
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From: Altadena, CA
Bikes: 2025 Ritte Esprit, 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2022 Trek Supercaliber
Agree with that. I had about 12k CAD budget for my bike. Decided instead of picking the 12k version I could get everything I wanted on lower trim and add a couple wheel sets and accessories.
First extra wheel set will be carbon with a gravel tire and after reading these posts, a 45mm Shwalbe tubeless. This way i can play with pressure and see what the fuss is about
have not decided on second set. Either a dedicated studded winter or a skinny summer road. Waiting to see how this winter goes with the Marathon plus 38 and the tubeles 45mm
First extra wheel set will be carbon with a gravel tire and after reading these posts, a 45mm Shwalbe tubeless. This way i can play with pressure and see what the fuss is about
have not decided on second set. Either a dedicated studded winter or a skinny summer road. Waiting to see how this winter goes with the Marathon plus 38 and the tubeles 45mm
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RIP 01/08/25...2022 Trek Supercaliber, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2018 Trek Procaliber SL Singlespeed, 2017 Bear BR1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
RIP 01/08/25...2022 Trek Supercaliber, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2018 Trek Procaliber SL Singlespeed, 2017 Bear BR1, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
05-31-24 | 11:12 AM
#57
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Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Whatever .... if it works for you it works.
06-02-24 | 02:49 PM
#61
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Thanks for the input on the tires. I ended up with tubeless Schwalbe G-1 RS 700x45 for the second wheel-set. This looks to be a fun tire/wheel combo to experiment with on weekends.
Finally picked up the bike. This reveal will be anticlimactic after the dizzying heights of the originally promised CAD 12k Orbea Alma M-Ltd.
Enough people on bf told me I'd get used to drop bars; I relented and got a drop bar bike with Rival e-tap . Rival has everything I want in electronic components (less maintenance, seamless shifting, and app integration). From what I can tell, spending more on a higher tier nets me almost zero gains for my intended use and skill level.
My choice was primarily between an SL7 or SL6 AXS. The SL6 has the 1x12 I want and aluminum rims for my workhorse commuter Marathon Plus wheelset. Plus I like red.
I also ordered the OE alloy fender set (back ordered), a Blendr dual mount and seat mount for the Garmin lights/radar and a Garmin Explorer.
First ride ever on a drop bar for another thread.
Thanks to all who helped me out
Finally picked up the bike. This reveal will be anticlimactic after the dizzying heights of the originally promised CAD 12k Orbea Alma M-Ltd.
Enough people on bf told me I'd get used to drop bars; I relented and got a drop bar bike with Rival e-tap . Rival has everything I want in electronic components (less maintenance, seamless shifting, and app integration). From what I can tell, spending more on a higher tier nets me almost zero gains for my intended use and skill level.
My choice was primarily between an SL7 or SL6 AXS. The SL6 has the 1x12 I want and aluminum rims for my workhorse commuter Marathon Plus wheelset. Plus I like red.
I also ordered the OE alloy fender set (back ordered), a Blendr dual mount and seat mount for the Garmin lights/radar and a Garmin Explorer.
First ride ever on a drop bar for another thread.
Thanks to all who helped me out
06-02-24 | 05:29 PM
#63
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Thanks. My only real unfixable complaint is that I now have a"swarm of bees" wheel. What used to be peaceful silent descents with the IGH is now far less tranquil. I also lost some stuff in the internal sinkhole of "frame storage". One item got jammed so far down that I still haven't got it out.
On the plus, drop bars are great and it's much easier to find my happy gear and stay with it for extended periods than it was on the Alfine.8. The ride is also smoother and less jarring than my previous commuter which had a Thudbuster ST. This despite the commuter running 55psi and the bike shop having my new tires cranked to 85.
On the plus, drop bars are great and it's much easier to find my happy gear and stay with it for extended periods than it was on the Alfine.8. The ride is also smoother and less jarring than my previous commuter which had a Thudbuster ST. This despite the commuter running 55psi and the bike shop having my new tires cranked to 85.
06-03-24 | 08:49 AM
#66
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Just put the tubeless set on there already. There is no need to 'experiment'. The experimentation has already been done a dozen years ago. Just follow the known BKM. You are spending good money on a new bike but using Marathon tires that makes it ride like a department store Schwinn.
06-03-24 | 09:52 AM
#67
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Rolls amazingly well. I’ve ridden more than a few low end flat bars.
if I kept bike inside I may have gone for it. Carbon tubeless set will be inside and installed on weekends. Marathons for mainly city commute.
for what it’s worth
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...thon-plus-2015
if I kept bike inside I may have gone for it. Carbon tubeless set will be inside and installed on weekends. Marathons for mainly city commute.
for what it’s worth
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...thon-plus-2015
06-03-24 | 10:20 AM
#68
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Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 343
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From: Aloha, Oregon
Bikes: Probably too many...
Back to road&gravel tire sizes, beyond the bikes with 22/23/25/28mm, I'm running 30mm Schwalbe tubular @80psi, 33mm Soma clinchers @70psi, 38mm RH Barlow Pass @55psi. My rides are 80% paved, 20% unpaved. The gravel I ride (or realistically foresee riding regularly) has a packed surface with varying amounts of loose gravel.
I find the 38's make for a 'taller' feeling ride, not quite the plushness @55psi that some might prefer. The Soma Supple Vitesse (made in Japan) are very nice @70psi - soft on the road, always ready for urban gravel trails. The Schwalbe 30s I bought a few years back to be sturdy street tires = and they are!, could go lower on the pressure for a loose surface.
Conclusion - going from 28 to 38 changed the ride feel on a bike. Sitting taller, or feeling so, more tire noise, slower (heavier?) steering. I would imagine going from 35 to 45 to be similar, depending on one's pressures.
But I'm the guy who is content with 28mm hard road tires for the majority of their riding; and hard 22/23mm if the pavement is generally smooth.
Lots of tires and technologies to choose from. Nobody should be unhappy. If you know what you need it is a smorgasbord market place.
tubular, clincher, tubeless tires
hooked, hookless, tubular rims
carbon and aluminum rims in various depths and numerous spoke types
hubs in different price ranges & styles.
I find the 38's make for a 'taller' feeling ride, not quite the plushness @55psi that some might prefer. The Soma Supple Vitesse (made in Japan) are very nice @70psi - soft on the road, always ready for urban gravel trails. The Schwalbe 30s I bought a few years back to be sturdy street tires = and they are!, could go lower on the pressure for a loose surface.
Conclusion - going from 28 to 38 changed the ride feel on a bike. Sitting taller, or feeling so, more tire noise, slower (heavier?) steering. I would imagine going from 35 to 45 to be similar, depending on one's pressures.
But I'm the guy who is content with 28mm hard road tires for the majority of their riding; and hard 22/23mm if the pavement is generally smooth.
Lots of tires and technologies to choose from. Nobody should be unhappy. If you know what you need it is a smorgasbord market place.
tubular, clincher, tubeless tires
hooked, hookless, tubular rims
carbon and aluminum rims in various depths and numerous spoke types
hubs in different price ranges & styles.
I commute on a Trek Checkpoint AL3 that I converted from Sora to 105, with mechanical discs, rolling on 32mm Gatorskins at 65 PSI F/R with Muc-Off tube sealant. I also use clip-on aero bars with double panniers and full fenders. I'm sure one of the experts here will point out all of the reasons why my setup is wrong.😋
Last edited by MilhouseJ; 06-03-24 at 10:27 AM.
06-03-24 | 10:47 AM
#69
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From: MC-778, 6250 fsw
Bikes: 1997 Cannondale, 1976 Bridgestone, 1998 SoftRide, 1989 Klein, 1989 Black Lightning #0033
Just put the tubeless set on there already. There is no need to 'experiment'. The experimentation has already been done a dozen years ago. Just follow the known BKM. You are spending good money on a new bike but using Marathon tires that makes it ride like a department store Schwinn.
I myself have had pretty good luck over the years with "standard" sport -level tires, so I don't feel the need to seek the trade-off of maximum protection over performance.
I was fitting out a new training/sportive build, and scored a really good deal on a pair of S-Works Turbo cotton racing clinchers (because who rides 700x26mm anymore?) they're super-fast and supple, but from what I've read, kinda fragile; I suspect that their lifespan will be in the 100's of miles, rather than 1000's, but it'll be fun while it lasts. In the meantime, I make sure I'm always prepared for flats on that one.
Also an advantage of N+1; you can have a designated Utility/Townie/Commuter to wear the flat-proofs, without compromising on the Fast Bike
06-03-24 | 12:15 PM
#70
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Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?
Not being a daily commuter, I can only say Schwalbe Marathons or Conti Gatorskins are not in my 'single bike vocabulary'. Those 2 examples really hose the 'pavement ride quality' of a responsive road frameset, as do wide & soft tires. The tandem has a drum rear brake to go with rim brakes and changing a rear flat is a double pain (and double the human waiting time), so a set of Marathon Plus adorn the Co-Motion. Additionally, the tandem is hardly a responsive frameset, by 1/2 bike standards.
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Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
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06-03-24 | 01:32 PM
#71
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I think much of this hair pulling and foot stomping about the Marathons is by people who have never run them. They roll amazingly well and the 38 is comfortable at 55psi
regardless, I’ll have a direct comparison with a tubeless race style gravel Shwalbe. If nothing else, the Marathon Plus are great winter tires even without studs.
regardless, I’ll have a direct comparison with a tubeless race style gravel Shwalbe. If nothing else, the Marathon Plus are great winter tires even without studs.
06-03-24 | 02:55 PM
#72
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How many other tires (in that size range) have you used? Please give us some examples so that we can understand your frame of reference.
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06-03-24 | 03:54 PM
#73
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Well I could keep pace with most of the hardcore roadie types on the lake path. Could not do that on my flat bar same tires. That’s my measure.
I will have a clearer view once I install the tubeless wheel set
I will have a clearer view once I install the tubeless wheel set
Last edited by MikeDeason; 06-03-24 at 03:58 PM.
06-03-24 | 04:22 PM
#74
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There are different kinds of riders, and posters and people.
Some posters really think that the only way to ride a bike is Fast. They will graciously allow other people to ride slowly, but do not fully respect anything except fast riding.
Marathons are not tires designed for speed. They are designed for ... marathons. They are designed to have excellent puncture protection and longevity. I am not saying they are terrible, but a lot of us have used a lot of different tires, and know a little about what their tire experience teaches them.
I don't care if you think marathons are "not that bad." Compared to soft, supple, very lightweight tires .... So people who ride on racing or race-oriented or high-performance tires really do think by comparison, Gatorskins and Marathons and such are like hoses full of sand.
It is like a person who buys a new Mercedes SUV and crows about its wonderful ride ... they guy who just bought a Porsche 911 thinks the Mercedes rides like a truck. Sure the Mercedes soaks up all the bumps and glides gently over the pavement .... but it is garbage in the slalom.
Different criteria for different folks.
Some posters really think that the only way to ride a bike is Fast. They will graciously allow other people to ride slowly, but do not fully respect anything except fast riding.
Marathons are not tires designed for speed. They are designed for ... marathons. They are designed to have excellent puncture protection and longevity. I am not saying they are terrible, but a lot of us have used a lot of different tires, and know a little about what their tire experience teaches them.
I don't care if you think marathons are "not that bad." Compared to soft, supple, very lightweight tires .... So people who ride on racing or race-oriented or high-performance tires really do think by comparison, Gatorskins and Marathons and such are like hoses full of sand.
It is like a person who buys a new Mercedes SUV and crows about its wonderful ride ... they guy who just bought a Porsche 911 thinks the Mercedes rides like a truck. Sure the Mercedes soaks up all the bumps and glides gently over the pavement .... but it is garbage in the slalom.
Different criteria for different folks.
06-03-24 | 05:03 PM
#75
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Sure and as I’ve posted about 100 times. The Marathon wheeset is for my city commute and city trekking. You do not go fast in the city. It’s a big city. You stop and go. Sit in bike lines at lights and pound over cracked concrete and potholes. And the bike is stored outside.