My bike circle is largely C&V riders - mostly folks like me with modern bikes we do most of our riding on, but an interest in C&V sufficient to have >1 old bike to bring to the monthly ride. I'm the only Shimano fanboy of the group. Everyone else seems to be Campy fans. I like Shimano because prior to 2000, they were the scrappy newcomer, pushing the envelope, trying new things - a lot of which didn't catch on. That, and it seems like everybody and his dog who's into C&V goes for Campy.

BUT afaik, none of them have Campy on their modern bikes.

Great article, thanks. I recognized all the cars from just the quarter photos, except for the Espada. IIRC, I think I also saw Campy wheels on Alfa Spyders back in the day, and perhaps other models.

You'd be amazed at the effect of good product placement. Waxed cotton jackets were for fuddy-duddy hunters in the UK, and then the fashion mags published pics of George Clooney in a Belstaff trials jacket, and Kate Moss in a black cross-zip that looked like leather but was waxed cotton. Sales of all waxed cotton zoomed. And that was before social media influencers really took off.

Some of Ralph Lauren's stuff was just copies of vintage styles, like a denim trucker jacket lined with red wool blanket cloth, nothing special by old standards, but he was amazingly good at marketing that stuff, with said jacket selling in higher-end stores for $350. There are people in this world that read Vogue and buy new clothes every season. That's the target demographic. Oh and Lauren also had a waxed cotton jacket, dead ringer of an old smallgame hunting jacket, $600 in the 1990s. I know because I bought it dirt-cheap the following season at a retailer that sells stuff on clearance, original tag still on it.

Judging from all the relatively cheap C&V I see celebs on in the pic thread, where a modern quality bike would function better and is well within their price range, I figure there's a reason they are riding C&V.

Bromptons used to be cool when they were hard to get in the US.

The Concorde flights were losing money, priced only 20% over subsonic first class. A couple pilots for British Airways recommended they price the seats based on actual value, higher, and the planes were actually more full, the higher price equating to higher cachet of the product. Logical price/demand curves don't always apply. Suddenly, Concorde was profitable, and they (BA and Air France) had a monopoly on that market, and could control the supply.

Yeah you're right. I typed mid-market for a value proposition, and then in the next thought shifted to premium without going back and changing that.

Me.

I've ridden nothing but Shimano, I've only had one good road bike since '89. My current folder has brand-x stuff. But if I was still riding the road bike or buying a new one, it wouldn't be Shimano, I HATE the aesthetics of their road groups now. For me, the looks on a road bike are part of the appeal. I still like classic level top tubes.

In other pursuits not mentionable here, same thing, I want classic style, wood and not plastic. Same with my cookware, classic style and materials that don't wear out like non-stick, and looks good forever. Classic patterns on cooking knives. Cruising sailboats, they need to have classic lines and utility, not teardrop-shaped portlights and reverse sheer decks; modern materials, but it needs to look like it could be made out of wood.

So I think we have a consensus. Rather than focus on beating the competition by building a superior product with the latest tech, it seems Campagnolo should go back to the days of yore with shiny silver mechanical legacy-style components, performance be damned. Go old school marketing as well, spreading the word with the bike shop gossip boys telling stories of the old days, pay off the popular legacy cycling magazines and sponsor the local seniors club. Find some old Volvos or vintage Citroën vans, and support the various Eroica rides, and it should do the trick.

They will need to be quick about it, as the new target market demographics are not in their favour, and they are probably the least-spending, cheapest segment of cycling enthusiasts. It seems a bit of luck might be needed as well.

(bold above) If they can do that, by all means.

Or is this like when Microsoft, behind in mobile devices, acquired the mobile devices subsidiary of Nokia for 5.4 billion Euros in April 2014, which went nowhere because Apple and Android were both miles ahead, resulting in Microsoft, only a year later in 2015, taking a USD$7.8 billion dollar write-down on the purchase and laying off 7800 related employees. They would have been much better by spending that massive amount of money (or a whole lot less) by trying to grow-their-own.

Campy doesn't sound that stupid. I don't expect them to try to buy another maker to solve this. They will work internally to make something better.

So the question is, can Campagnolo put out something superior to Shimano and SRAM, at a market competitive price, and with bike makers on board to use those products? And do so at a time of declining sales of non-electric bikes as a whole?

When Campy was more diversified in product, that would really help in development dollars. But it appears to me that Campy is now all bike parts.

I think they have the technical design and development capability.

I think the tougher question may be relationships with manufacturers, where they have lost market share.

What has Shimano and/or SRAM done negative with bike makers, that might allow an opportunity for Campy trying harder?

I know a lower volume maker like Bike Friday, I think I read somewhere here, doesn't use Shimano and SRAM because they are so small that they are treated as retail. Recent years, my perception is that with worldwide availability on the web, the bike world has an increasing number of boutique makers, like early 20th century; Can Campagnolo do a better job in meeting requirements of those many small makers?

I have not a clue. There's others on here that clearly know Campagnolo and the bike market better; I look forward to hearing their thoughts.

I LOVE Campag 10 speed ultrashift and just prefer it to Shimano's offerings, it works great and I have never felt the need to go with more recent groups. I have it in Record, Chorus and Centaur variants on over a dozen bikes and within the next month should click past 100,000 miles on Campag since I started GPX'ing my rides a dozen or so years ago. So Campag has served me served me VERY well. I don'k think I've ever had a part fail, the derailleurs seem to last forever and are fit and forget. I've never had any problems with any square taper or Ultratorque cranks. Remind me how many millions of Shimano cranks have been recalled in the last few years?

I have rebuilt a set of shifters, after they'd done over 25,000 miles at the time. It was a bit nerve wracking and took a lot longer than the Campagnolo mechanic on the videos, but they are good as new and those shifters are still going strong. I like knowing how things work and if they're fine for my needs, and can be kept going, why spend 4k on a new groupset that looks hideous on my bikes and has neglible my world benefits, and comes in boring black or Shimano's trademark dumpster grey., no thanks. And no I don't want to have to charge my bike shifters up ever either.

Sadly Campagnolo has been continually less visually appealing since 10 speed, they at least need to start making things beautiful again. Rear derailleurs these days are the size of actual cable cars, truly gopping.

By all means let the marketing department convince you you need the latest and greatest all bells and whistles kit to have a positive or fast experience, you don't. I'm never left behind by mates riding more modern carbon bikes. If you feel the latest aero fanny pack will help you smash out 384th place on some sportive, go at it. I'd rather work on the motor and , god forbid, consume less.I hope they survive, but if not ebay will undoubtedly keep me going for years to come, I'm not worried.

And I feel a 'make Campagnolo beautiful again'' cap and t-shirt could be a nice little earner for them to help keep the lights on

A Shimano-graveyard-centered Eroica-like C&V ride would be something to see. Off the top of my head, there'd be Pitch 10, Direction 6, Rapid Rise, DynaDrive, and Biopace bikes, some with Flight Deck. Maybe the various generations of Front-Freewheeling Systems and Positron, too.

You forgot to add Uniglide cassette, Hyperglide cassette, DPB (Dual Pivot Brake), Nexave, Nexus, Octalink, Hollow Tech, STI, Rapidfire, Super SLR, SIS, the Parallax and Silent Clutch hubs that were made between 1994-1997 (very popular in the MTB range) and let's not forget the SPD pedals and shoes.

To add to my previously offered solutions how about offering “Campagnolo Classiche” much like Ferrari, Porsche, Jaguar and others offer where they can take the long abandoned groups many people here prefer and restore them to new. Then offer a certificate of authenticity with provenance. It seems all anyone is discussing is components long out of production and we have yet had a recent purchaser of a latest group.

Your antipathy toward Campagnolo is starting to seem pretty weird.

We've talked here about how C&V is dying a slow death...

People want new, latest and greatest. I would guess the majority of these people want a complete bike. I imagine the build it yourself market is small - especially considering that most of the groupsets from different vendors all pretty much look alike, perform alike - why would one be driven to do a custom build when you don't get much in return? A few may want to do this... but its hard to live off the few, especially when your product isn't much better, if at all.

Campy needs to get itself into more off the shelf/complete bikes from the majors. How they do that, how they compete with the bigger two competitors - ?? I have no idea.

Similar to the boat industry - most people walk in a buy a boat +/- off the shelf. Very few do ground up custom builds... and these off the shelf boats come with Yamaha or Merc engines as they dominate the market and the builders. Other outboards are off to the side, struggling to get put on boats.

I spent quite a bit of time, thinking about whether to build up a bike with Dura Ace AX, but in the end, I wasn't sure I would ride it much. But I do have a number of bikes with Shimano from the 80s and 90s. I really like the indexed DT shifters, though not as much as the ST-7400 STIs.

I didn't forget. My list consisted exclusively of Shimano innovations that died in the marketplace, or barely made it to the marketplace. That's what I meant by "Shimano graveyard" products.

You also missed the other hint, that I was imagining an Eroica-like event consisting of riders on bikes with those forgotten Shimano components, including Pitch 10, Dimension 6, the AX aero lineup, DynaDrive, etc.

Shimano made mistakes and moved on. Campagnolo made mistakes and didn't. A manufacturer that doesn't satisfy its target market doesn't persist.
TabA / SlotB

What mistakes did Campy make that they didn't move on from?

If there's any consensus, it's just among the voices in your head. Clearly, there's no consensus among the wide range of solutions suggested by people posting in this thread.

Take a look at the 260+ comments to this thread and how may are users of the current offerings. The odd Chorus 12 speed comments but that’s about it, no one is clamouring to purchase the current Super Record or actively rides it. Look at the bikes presented at NAHBS and MADE the premier showcases for price no object dream bikes yet the presence of Campagnolo was almost nonexistent, ironically one was shown with a 80th anniversary group equipped which was released 13 years ago.

I am not anti Campagnolo but relying on and listening to their legacy customers has been their biggest issue, there is no money there. In the meantime, their major competitors were busy, looking forward, establishing strong connections with the major OEM partners and winning over new entrants to the sport. At the same time building excellent products at better prices.

What does any of this have to do with there being or not being a consensus on how Campy should address the future direction of their business?

Whaaa???

As noted upthread multiple times,Atlas Shrugged , you're not only anti-Campagnolo, you're weirdly so, like Campagnolo stole your high school sweetheart.

The Shimano problems were with the two-metal bonded spiders, yeah I don't like that design either. But I didn't buy them also because those 4-arm asymm cranks were UGLY.

Having said that, Campag's hollow spindle crank using a hirth joint (sawtooth spline) is simply a more complicated and expensive means to accomplish the same goal as Hollowtech II, which is simply a hollow spindle with a left arm that clamps around splines. Patented I'm sure, but by now, there are generics (I have one) and Campag should go that route.

T-shirt: Great idea, seriously, and it should picture the last, best crank from Campag with a 5-arm spider and in polished silver.

Latest and greatest can also look good. 4-arm asymm cranks save a few grams, and if people want to look TdF, they are welcome to. But I like 5-arm symm cranks in polished silver.

Yes, many boats come as a hull and engine package. This is not to save customers hassle, if a hull is rated for 50 hp, it's not hard to compare 50s for features and weight. This is all for greater profit. Boston Whaler AND Mercury Marine are both owned by Brunswick corp, and are "bundled" together the way Microsoft tried to force on consumers for browsers (you could not get an MS computer new with Netscape, MS forced that on hardware makers), and got successfully sued for it by the government, you may remember the video of Bill Gates being deposed under oath, nervously rhythmically rocking forward and back in his chair like an autistic person I know (Gates is a MUCH better human being now); By the time the smoke cleared, Netscape was out of business. So try to buy a 'Whaler with a Honda or Yamaha engine.

The selective cut and paste responses to fit your narratives is fairly humorous, especially when the remainder of the response outlines my position. But if that’s the only way you’re able to support your arguments then so be it. I am only pointing out what got Campagnolo in the predicament they are in today. Which somehow triggered a defense response disputing what is already known. Now they are supposedly a top tier consumer goods business in a highly technical competitive environment which has just laid off 40% of their staff and are in serious financial difficulty. This is an extremely precarious position to be in and unless they change direction, fatal. Rather than basing your responses on nostalgic memories of groups long since out of production try offering solutions of your own. As stated numerous times and deflected by personal attacks, they have gone from market leader to last place with an almost unmeasurable market share. SRAM in the meantime from entering the road scene in 2006 and introducing RED in 2008 now is actively fighting it out with Shimano for enthusiasts support.

It's a mystery why you quote other peoples' posts, when your responses have nothing to do with those posts.

Probably not able to fund with sponsorships? i really doubt that the actual function of the "big three" has anything to do with whether teams use them or not. But I really know nothing about that game.

Same here. But I felt the same way with Suntour back in the day.

Please don't pretend that you are merely offering objective analysis and others are unfairly quoting you. You're the one who can't see any viewpoint but your own, who completely fabricated some prices to suggest that Campy is too expensive, and who keeps offering non-sequitur rants in response to other people's posts. You really can't blame anyone for thinking that you are anti-Campy.