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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
(Post 23653427)
Your entire post is a series of non sequiturs. I'm not going to address them.
I guess you couldn't think of any good responses huh? I'm sure you'll think of something eventually. Any more ideas for why laying off 40% of your workforce in one night is a "positive" thing, I'm all ears for similar jokes. |
Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23653442)
When you have no good comebacks... throw out an accusation and then run away.
ac·cu·sa·tion /ˌakyəˈzāSHən/ noun
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Originally Posted by Zara Sp00k
(Post 23653344)
In 1985 I could finally afford to buy a decent bike to replace my Schwinn that my parents had bought me when I was 12, I looked in magazines and talked to friends and co-workers (some Campy fans among them) who had nice bikes and took the advice of a co-worker who said to check out the bikes from a shop who sold a number of different brands and would let me test drive them. Further he suggested looking at a bike I never heard of before, ... Trek.
Arriving at the shop and after looking at the bikes I was impressed with the fact that Trek sold a line of bikes which effectively were the same bike except equipped with drive trains from 3 different manufacturers. They sold a model 400 with Shimano, a 410 with Campy, a 500 with Sun Tour, a 510 again with Campy. Before arriving I was really leaning towards Campy equipped bikes because the friends I had talked to left me with the impression this was the best. Until I road the bikes. When the salesman asked me which bike I liked, I said the 510 although I really didn't, I just didn't want to appear to be the newbie that could not appreciate the obvious superiorority of the Campy drive train. But I didn't fool the salesman, he suggested I try another bike, a Trek 600. I was sold, smooth as silk, it was equipped with Shimano 600, which I learned later was a high quality group second only to their Dura Ace. I still own and ride that bike, along with a newer Ultegra STI equipped Trek, and a couple of MTB and a street cruiser for going to the grocery store. One of my Campy friends mentioned how quiet and smooth the 600 was (and still is) I noticed when he bought a new bike a few years later it was Schimano Ultegra equipped. I don't know anyone who rides Campy today, nor have I seen any bikes in a shop equipped with it.eing in yo One problem I see is that people with a lot of money might be able to buy an expensive bike, but do you really want to own a bike that is far above your ability. People aren't going to be impressed, they'll look at you as a fool, kind of like being in your race gear and being passed by the guy in cut off jeans, a T shirt, and no helmet smoking a cigarette. you are not going to impress anyone with your bike, oh, they might look at it out of interest, but you will only impress them with your riding. |
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
(Post 23653448)
You seem to not understand the meaning of the word accusation.
I simply pointed out that your previous post consisted of multiple non sequiturs, and that I'm not going to address them. |
Originally Posted by Koyote
(Post 23653294)
This thread is so 'merica: people with no training or experience are experts on a subject, people citing anecdotes as if they are evidence, people presenting their opinions as if they are facts, and people using anger and insults when they run out of rational arguments. It really is a microcosm of much that has gone wrong with our country.
People sitting in wait to jump into a discussion, criticize and point out when they think people are wrong, and not offer much in terms if evidence to dispute the opinions others present... or to simply tell people their opinions are wrong, because it doesn't match their own opinions. |
Originally Posted by chaadster
(Post 23653387)
In May, '22, writing for Velo News, James Huang reported that between '20 and the start of '22, "Campagnolo says it’s increased its overall staffing by 30% and its total production capacity by 75%."
Reminds me of a chat I had with the warehouse manager for a bike parts distributor in 1974. I was there picking up an order and must have asked how business was. He said, "I just got back from a meeting with the owners. They were moaning about how they'd lost 4 million dollars last year compared to the previous year. The warehouse guy had told them, "You didn't lose 4 million dollars. You never had that 4 million to lose. Nobody told you to buy a million Huret Allvit derailleurs!" Campagnolo appears to be retrenching after a brief period of overoptimistic expansion. But it'll be a while before the supply of European millionaires determined to consume conspicuously dries up. |
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
(Post 23653373)
Campagnolo is not a publicly traded U.S. company. There is nothing to suggest they have been forced to do this by any auditor. And, there is nothing to suggest that they have "burned through an emergency round of financing." Even if they did, the $10M loan they obtained is peanuts for a company with $100M annual sales. And auditors in the EU are also subject to regulations that require going concern disclosures. You simply do not voluntarily state that there is a substantial risk you’re going to out of business if you don’t have to. It scares creditors, dries up funding and spooks customers. as for the Cash burn, the liquidity warning came after getting the 10 million Euro starting last year, which clearly indicates that that Cash is gone, and they continue to bleed cash, otherwise they wouldn’t say they have a critical liquidity problem Their restructuring may turn things around, but the fact they made that disclosure, particularly after they had already obtained the 10 million Euro, starting last year, absolutely signals that there is a substantial risk that they will cease to operate as a going concern in the not too distant future. |
Originally Posted by Jughed
(Post 23653487)
You forgot a part of 'merica:
People sitting in wait to jump into a discussion, criticize and point out when they think people are wrong, and not offer much in terms if evidence to dispute the opinions others present... or to simply tell people their opinions are wrong, because it doesn't match their own opinions. I'll point out that you have now "jumped into a discussion" just to criticize someone. |
Originally Posted by Koyote
(Post 23653534)
Please show me the post in which I told anyone they were wrong about Campagnolo's business prospects, or where I expressed my own opinions on it. Really -- please show me. Quote me.
I'll point out that you have now "jumped into a discussion" just to criticize someone. |
Originally Posted by Jughed
(Post 23653535)
Please show me where I said I was talking about you!! Feeling guilty?
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Speaking about things one knows little about is not exclusive to the USA, it is throughout the world. The internet plus social platforms makes many an expert, and even more an expert with an unqualified opinion.
For those that do not understand the attraction of Campagnolo, I get it, but I don't begrudge them. As one who has run any number of Shimano and Campagnolo drive trains, brakes, cranks, etc., I really do prefer Campagnolo ergonomics and shifting performance. There is something reassuring about the firm movement of a brifter and a solid click broadcast from it that I like. I have never had any issues whatsoever with the Campagnolo 11 speed that I use. Never had trouble with the 10 speed that I used on a borrowed bike either. I ran NR up until 2019, then made the move to Campagnolo 11 speed. As a bike mechanic I can testify that the 90's Campagnolo drive trains, specifically the derailleurs and shifters, had to be set up very precise to work well. Most were unable to do it and passed it off as "the best Campy gets", which was a disservice to the brand. Unfortunately it is the way Campagnolo designed the stuff. I was unable to perfect the shifting, however one of my co-workers, who is exceptionally detailed oriented, was a master at it. He still runs that old stuff to this day without issue. For those of us that appreciate the allure of Campagnolo, simply ignore the banter of the superiority of Shimano and Sram, and the inferiority of Campagnolo. It is simply opinions, which mean nothing. It's just noise, and we have a world full of it. Campagnolo has faced the wall before, and will surmount it as they did in the past. Viva Campagnolo! |
I think they would do better if they stayed mechanical (not sure if they are or not) and maybe even get back into producing vintage designs.
The cable-less derailleurs that have long levers mounted directly on the seat tube (front) and seat stays (rear) would appeal to those tired of messing around with cable routing and housings. Maybe even make them more modern? I hope they make it, even just as a cottage market. I also hope the executive management have taken pay cuts before laying off dozens of people. |
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
(Post 23653515)
True, but I’m pretty sure it has audited financial statements. It has to in order to get bank loans, and the 10 million euro loan from its shareholders. Large suppliers would also demand them before extending credit.
And auditors in the EU are also subject to regulations that require going concern disclosures. You simply do not voluntarily state that there is a substantial risk you’re going to out of business if you don’t have to. It scares creditors, dries up funding and spooks customers. ... when your auditors force you to put such a going concern disclosure in your financial statements it is very often a harbinger of impending bankruptcy. as for the Cash burn, the liquidity warning came after getting the 10 million Euro starting last year, which clearly indicates that that Cash is gone, and they continue to bleed cash, otherwise they wouldn’t say they have a critical liquidity problem Their restructuring may turn things around, but the fact they made that disclosure, particularly after they had already obtained the 10 million Euro, starting last year, absolutely signals that there is a substantial risk that they will cease to operate as a going concern in the not too distant future. The bottom line is that the industry-wide downturn has affected Campy the same as it has affected the rest of the industry, and they have reduced their workforce to address this. It's not surprising, nor is it a sign of impending bankruptcy. |
When I built up my old racing bike, I was on a tight budget, and decided to try some components that were lighter, yet less expensive than Campagnolo - Suntour Cyclone derailleurs, an Avocet seatpost, and Galli Ti brakes. They turned out to be great, OK, and awful, respectively. My stolen Paramount had been all Campy, but I don't think I could be accused of being a 'fan' - whatever works was more my attitude. But even back then, I had an appreciation for why folks held Campagnolo in such high regard, when I considered their brake cable clips. It was the attention to detail. Campy brake cable clips were designed with the tiny nut already attached, ready to receive the tiny bolt. This meant that instead of trying to hold three parts and two tools, only two parts and one tool were needed. No mechanic has ever had to look around on the floor for a dropped Campy cable clip nut. Not at home, not in a shop, not in the grass, not at a race. That thoughtful design detail must have saved thousands of hours of frustration for thousands of mechanics over time. Attention to detail characterizes Campagnolo in the 1970's.
Atlas Shrugged calls that era one of stagnation. I call it one of refinement, and the source of Campagnolo's reputation, for any young'uns here in General who may have missed out... |
This thread reminds me of the hospital stories during COVID when the guy is blue in the face and hasn't blinked for 3 weeks, the hospital staff are just going through the motions at that point, but the desperate family is still yelling at the top of their lungs there will be a miraculous recovery. 🫁
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It reminds me of the millions who didn't give a ****.
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero
(Post 23653569)
Speaking about things one knows little about is not exclusive to the USA, it is throughout the world. The internet plus social platforms makes many an expert, and even more an expert with an unqualified opinion.
For those that do not understand the attraction of Campagnolo, I get it, but I don't begrudge them. As one who has run any number of Shimano and Campagnolo drive trains, brakes, cranks, etc., I really do prefer Campagnolo ergonomics and shifting performance. There is something reassuring about the firm movement of a brifter and a solid click broadcast from it that I like. I have never had any issues whatsoever with the Campagnolo 11 speed that I use. Never had trouble with the 10 speed that I used on a borrowed bike either. I ran NR up until 2019, then made the move to Campagnolo 11 speed. As a bike mechanic I can testify that the 90's Campagnolo drive trains, specifically the derailleurs and shifters, had to be set up very precise to work well. Most were unable to do it and passed it off as "the best Campy gets", which was a disservice to the brand. Unfortunately it is the way Campagnolo designed the stuff. I was unable to perfect the shifting, however one of my co-workers, who is exceptionally detailed oriented, was a master at it. He still runs that old stuff to this day without issue. For those of us that appreciate the allure of Campagnolo, simply ignore the banter of the superiority of Shimano and Sram, and the inferiority of Campagnolo. It is simply opinions, which mean nothing. It's just noise, and we have a world full of it. Campagnolo has faced the wall before, and will surmount it as they did in the past. Viva Campagnolo! Someone in an earlier post used the phrase "imprinting on Campagnolo". I think - for me anyway - that's an appropriate term. Since I started on the road at the age of ~13, Campag was the "pinnacle". To this day, I wouldn't consider any other drivetrain on a road bike. I've installed and set up Shimano road drivetrains for others, I have run Shimano on an MTB, and in every case, it just works almost right out of the box. However, it's just not Campagnolo. I guess I'm in a cult.....:) |
Originally Posted by Zara Sp00k
(Post 23653344)
One problem I see is that people with a lot of money might be able to buy an expensive bike, but do you really want to own a bike that is far above your ability. People aren't going to be impressed, they'll look at you as a fool, kind of like being in your race gear and being passed by the guy in cut off jeans, a T shirt, and no helmet smoking a cigarette..
We (those who have ridden with others) know that the bike (road bikes) has little to do with how fast we go, beyond a certain point of diminishing returns. I certainly am not capable of riding my road bikes as fast as a younger, fitter rider could ride them. Does that make me a "fool" for having them? Should I buy the cheapest BSO from a department store because that's what my slow ass deserves? |
Around 1989 someone gave me a tee shirt that said "Campagnolo, when technology becomes emotion" in big letters. Obviously, this is true based on this thread. Some still love it and some seem extremely bitter. Some are even obnoxious about it.
Most of my bikes have been Shimano equipped but I've also had parts from Avid, Sram, Mavic, and Campagnolo. I bought a used bike with Chorus 10 in 2012. Put about 70K miles on it since then. I've been happy with it and I especially like the fit/feel of the brake hoods and levers. To me, it's just parts, like frames and wheels and tires, etc. I'd like to see Campagnolo survive whatever they are going through. Having choices is good, competition is good. |
A lot of the schadenfreude derived from Campy's hardship, and the concomitant trumped-up indignation (pun intended) and aggression, is right in line with the current zeitgeist fetishizing "inequity aversion" and anti-elitism. I know that's a lot of German loan words for a thread about an Italian company, but here we are.
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Originally Posted by chaadster
(Post 23653673)
A lot of the schadenfreude derived from Campy's hardship, and the concomitant trumped-up indignation (pun intended) and aggression, is right in line with the current zeitgeist fetishizing "inequity aversion" and anti-elitism. I know that's a lot of German loan words for a thread about an Italian company, but here we are.
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Originally Posted by 13ollocks
(Post 23653680)
The Germans have a word for Campag: Gottdammgutshiftung :)
Cramp'n'GoSlow, Crack'n'Fail, Shimano (with a strategically placed asterisk): why no "Scram"? |
Info on Shimano:
https://road.cc/content/news/shimano...-growth-316579 Some fun videos to break up the Campy hate: |
Originally Posted by chaadster
(Post 23653673)
A lot of the schadenfreude derived from Campy's hardship, and the concomitant trumped-up indignation (pun intended) and aggression, is right in line with the current zeitgeist fetishizing "inequity aversion" and anti-elitism. I know that's a lot of German loan words for a thread about an Italian company, but here we are.
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Originally Posted by chaadster
(Post 23653673)
A lot of the schadenfreude derived from Campy's hardship, and the concomitant trumped-up indignation (pun intended) and aggression, is right in line with the current zeitgeist fetishizing "inequity aversion" and anti-elitism. I know that's a lot of German loan words for a thread about an Italian company, but here we are.
Read all the posts of the Campagnolo supporters explaining how they or their gifted mechanic was able to get it to work. Others defending the heavier effort to operate. No one is mentioning the Electronic solution which has been poorly adopted. ‘’I hope Campagnolo survives and begins making great components which are clearly better than the competition. I would get a bike built up with it for sure, but I just don’t see it happening. |
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