Bike builder Jones works a 40 hour week, does all his welding/brazing/painting by hand and turns out one bike a week which he sells for $1,000.

Bike builder Smith buys $200k in automated tooling. Working the same 40 hour week Smith turns out 5 bikes. By that labor theory, Smith's bikes should sell for $200. Great for the consumer.

But why should Smith buy or finance his $200k investment in tooling? That investment has a real cost but Smith gets the same pay as Jones.

So you say the solution is have the state buy the $200k tooling and give it to Smith (or maybe Jones depending on whom is favored) then both Smith and Jones are happy, right? And there isn't any cost if the state buys the tooling, right?

In Portland, Trek bought the very successful Bike Gallery chain and turned the shops into Trek showrooms. Now close to useless as a bike shop for those of us with older or non-Trek bikes. I didn't buy big ticket items from Bike Gallery before but they sold me good bike clothes, a lot of tires, locks, fenders ... Now its a $10-15 item about once every year or two. The nearest is my closest shop but going a couple of miles further to any of several shops is much more likely to get me what I want and as pointed out in the post I quoted, those shops aren't soulless and depressing. (REI is radically better! A massive swing of the pendulum.)

Trek closed a bunch of shops near me or sorry opened a bunch of shops and I went in one and nobody helped us at all not even came to say hello it was only when we checked out they said word one and honestly if we didn't need to buy a helmet for the little guy I wouldn't have gone in. There was another employee who seemed busy and couldn't talk but the other guy just sort of came out of the back and was more of a basic cashier than anything. It was sad, that particular shop was quite nice some good people working there and now it felt barely alive.

I guess REI is better in some places but usually in more bike shop deserts in areas with a lot of shops they tend to be less great as a bike shop (though not everywhere) certainly it can be a good store I don't really have any major qualms and go in there usually once or twice a year these days for camping incidentals. Usually nice enough people but some maybe less knowledgeable than I would like but I am a gear nerd who has been in the industry a while and worked in a local based "REI"-esque shop so I cannot be mad.

I am mad at them for not hiring me and poor communication and picking someone way less qualified for the job (I worked with that person which is how I know) I would have loved that sweet $40+ an hour. Though I am having fun on my own way better than a corporate structure honestly but the money would have been sweet.

Amazingly bad/unrealistic/oversimplified example in so many ways

More like artisan frame builder works from his garage, is highly regarded and charges 2500 to 12000 per complete bike. Overhead is low, no marketing costs to speak of, biggest cost is painter, followed by materials and components.

No one would buy 200k worth of equipment if there was not an ROI and most ROI needs to be shown in 5 years or under (my brother is looking at a $500k powder coat oven... ROI is 2 years) More like bike builder smith increases automation with 200k investment allowing him to produce 5 bikes a week, has to reduce price as hand crafted cachet is gone so bikes sell for 800 and no one is going to make money on producing 250 $800 bikes a year after depreciation, debt service, cost of components, marketing cost, etc etc etc

Reducing labor costs is done by production efficiency or lower labor cost, typically by moving to areas where labor does not cost as much

In the Labor Theory of Value, the $200k in capital (and also any raw materials such as steel going into the bike frame) represents "embodied" labor, i.e. indirect labor input. So, your example does not conform to the theory you're using.

Literally no one said that. And let's not get into the fantasy that it would take $200k of capital to build five bikes per week.

So when robots are doing the assembly and bonding/welding…?

See my post immediately above yours for an explanation of how capital accounted for in the theory.

But again, the Labor Theory of Value (which the poster is employing) does not successfully explain prices as he/she has suggested.

No. All factors devolve to labor. Why does a neurosurgeon earns more than a welder? It takes a decade of labor in college, as an intern, and on the job to become a neurosurgeon. It takes about 2 years of labor to learn welding. Risk also increases the value of labor. A neurosurgeon typically pays about $200,000 per year for malpractice insurance, and the value of his labor is adjusted to offset that cost. Why does a Rolls Royce cost more than a Kia? Why does a meal at a Michelin Star restaurant cost more than McDonald's? Skill requires labor, the higher the skill level, the more labor is required to obtain it. The more skill it takes to provide a product or service, the more expensive they will be. The more labor it requires to obtain a resource (like iron, wood, gold, fish, or truffles) the more that resource will cost. Marx certainly believed that value was derived from labor, the "Labor Theory of Value" comes from Adam Smith, that a commodity's value was based upon the time and labor required to produce it. Marx fully agreed with this theory, the only thing he objected to was the division of that value.

If your theory is correct, then the net present value (net of education and insurance costs) of their lifetime earnings should be equal; but they are not.

The above statements are sometimes true, sometimes false; plenty of highly-skilled professionals have seen their compensation plummet (and even disappear) because the demand for their output diminished. (ex: whalers after Thomas Edison, and countless other professions over the past few hundred years.) Regardless, even when the statements are true, that doesn't preclude other factors (costs of capital, consumer demand) from also influencing a good's value.

​​​​​​Yes, Smith came up with the theory, and Marx was its last gasp before Marshallian economics replaced it -- and for good reason, since Marshall's model resolved all of the problems with the labor theory of value -- such as accounting for consumer demand and other inputs (capital and land) as determinants of value.

I own 2 Trek hybrids from 2018 (same model for my and my wife’s bike) and they are nice bikes but I don’t think I’d buy one today.

The Beatles? I’m a musician and believe me, they have a very special talent. Right from the beginning and to the end. And yes, to some degree over-hyped, but that was a sociological phenomenon.

Uncertainty does not play well for large companies with large inventories and broad supply chains. Boards of directors don't want to hear "I don't know", they want someone to tell them a plan, then execute. Can't happen with 10-20% swings. Maybe this is the opportunity for small brands to use their agility?

No one goes to that restaurant any more. It's too popular. --- Yogi Berra

My experience also, the big T seems to suck the life out of shops. Our old independent shop had various brands et al including used stuff....

no more.

So basically we get soulless corporate shops devoid of various brands and less people visiting or working there. The old shop was busy with several sales and mechanics working there..............all gone.

But this is 'progress' they say. well i don't say, now i have to go to another town to visit an independent shop with good mechanics AND used bicycles if i want them.

AND this was so predictable even to me. when i first heard of this, i knew it would be bad news: correct again. hope big T gets out of retail and sells the shops back, but fixing the damage they have done to the Bicycle eco system going to take a Long long time if ever. and of course Corporate types are always correct in their heads, their degree in nonsense says so and we pay.

This is not going on just in bicycle brands but also in bad business practices against independent music dealers and probably other kinds of business. again, the Corporate types need real classes in business or they will get the skool of hard knocks. perhaps the same results?

I have a different take. What allowed the prices to be driven so high to begin with? (and my point was about the great recession)

Remember, I am not an economist, just observant... my observations told me that people running up to 08 were leveraged to the hilt and money/debt was free flowing and cheap. An entire excess economy was built on the backs of inflated home prices and loans being taken for more than the current value.

After the pop, after money dried up... and people could no longer pay the piper, that is when gas prices became a secondary issue.

My example goes for boats, RV's, toys, vehicles and yes - houses at the time. Everything was inflated - based on fake money and fake values of assets.

My point was - they crashed... and didn't come back cheaper. That is what I was really saying. Boats came back more expensive, cars/trucks came back more expensive... and so on and so on - and by expensive, I mean when compared to the price in relation to household income.

And that is what I see now - the cost of just about everything is so far out of whack when compared to household incomes... from the beginning - college/education, to the price of cars, to house values or rent - all have surpassed what dual incomes can afford.

nationalize the the bike industry and subsidize commuter bicycles and sponsor a TDF team > problems solved

.

Mebe call them US Postal? I know this unemployed former pro in Texas….

OH NO YOU DIDN'T!!!

Just a whisper, a hint, an idea... of the man that can't be mentioned!! Imagine if he didn't un-retire, no positive tests, no downfall... I think the landscape of American cycling would be different.


America kinda needs a superstar to revitalize interest... listen to some of the current and past pro's and they all say pretty much the same thing - road cycling in the USA is dead or near death. Nobody wants to fund a stage race of any importance here. Too costly, to much of a problem dealing with the localities, logistics nightmare. There is no real superstar to inspire the next crop of racers. Cost of entry into racing is insane, avenues for potential racers are limited... training is done much on ones own time, on local roads that are often dangerous - they are not sitting at camps along the south coast of Spain...

Gravel is great - new, fresh - less chance of getting squished by a dump truck or soccer mom. But who really has access to gravel on a day to day basis? Not the majority of the country.

It's been a long time coming, and I've been saying this for a long time - we have not been building the next batch of riders for a long time, especially road riders.

So "I should have stayed in dental school"?....

Perhaps on a professional level. What about amateur racing? (I don't know the answer, but am wondering if you have any numbers, any evidence to support your assertion?)


You've raised this issue before, and many of your fellow posters pointed out that your sense of this is unrealistic. (e.g., an adolescent doesn't need a $7k bike to start road racing.)


I don't know what percentage of people in the US have easy access to gravel roads, and I'm guessing that you don't know, either. I do know (as does anyone else who is even casually interested in cycling) that gravel riding and racing is a growing segment, that the bikes (entry level and higher) are not any less expensive than road bikes (which contradicts your claim about entry costs being prohibitive), and that MTB and BMX riding both became popular even though most people probably have to travel further to access appropriate trails than they do to access gravel roads.

Here are some stats to support my comments. They are behind a paywall, but you can easily see the summaries.

Well, at least some of this is down to the owner of your "Trek retailer".

It does feel more corporate and Plan-O-Grammed, but they will service any bike and are very helpful overall. There is one salesman working and two mechanics at any given time. On busier days, two salesmen and three mechanics. The owner is floating around most of the time too, lending a hand in both areas. (he's a retired MTB racer)

Are you sure you're not just harboring some anger because they're a big corporation and over their supporting a doper 20 years ago? As big as they are, they're small compared to Giant.

I really can't think of how you can criticize their variety; they make a bit of everything, esp. when you consider that Electra is a Trek brand too.

I also have a more local 2nd generation ma 'n pa shop. They're a Giant, Jamis and one other brand I can't think of dealer. Also friendly, but prices are higher and service is not quite as good, as it's a skeleton crew by comparison. It doesn't help that the other local shop closed up last year.

bicycles and bicycle businesses and bicycle lifestyles don't generate interest in a predominately FAT & LAZY spectator society so we bicyclers will remain ODDBALLS having to make do with our ever diminishing niche(s)

Yes, unless you are an antidentite.

With all that you've said there, I'm surprised you have a computer to access this forum. Still hanging onto your rotary dial phone as well?

First, you took half of what I wrote and quoted it like I was making the assertions - go back and read.

The rest - I'm not getting into a battle of semantics with you...

That's really a people thing and not a Trek thing. Different people have different personalities.

Personally when I go into a bike shop I don't want any of the workers coming to talk to me to say hello or say anything at all really. If I have a question I will ask, otherwise I prefer to left alone to browse around.