sarals 

Cool! It's worth waiting for the native version, then.

shovelhd

Golden Cheetah runs natively on a Mac. Today.

AzTallRider

I used to import into both WKO+ and GC, but when I needed to upgrade GC to handle a changed Garmin format, GC had some issues: a DOS window would stay open, and if you closed it the program terminated. Plus there were some font/display problems. It looked 'ugly'. I also don't like the long time it spends processing data for some of the views. WKO+ seems to handle the user experience for the process intensive features better. So when I went to the Mac, I simplified and settled on WKO+. My workflow is to upload into TP, so my data is available wherever I am, make my annotations there, then download from the website into WKO+ on the Mac. That gets the files into the format Coach prefers to receive, and I email them to him.

I do most of my looking using the TP web service (paid version), while Coach uses the WKO+ desktop software. From what I've seen, he could (and I would love to see him do it) give a masters class on how to get the most out of WKO+. No surprise there.

I also upload into Strava, for the social/team aspects, and because it's an easy way to evaluate specific segments/climbs. Selecting 9-Mile hill within TP or WKO+ is less precise than just looking at the Strava segment, even given the potential lack of precision of GPS.

Esteban58

I would infer from this that you find the TP web service (paid version) better than the WKO+ desktop version (for viewing analysis). Is that correct?

I've found the TP free web version to be a bit buggy / eclectic - it seems to fail to load my .fit file from the garmin on the first try most of the time, although it seems to succeed on a second attempt consistently. I was thinking of shelling out for the paid web service, but at this point I'm reluctant to do that and inclined to try WKO+ instead (which is cheaper in the long run anyway).

AzTallRider

I don't think it's better, Esteban, I'm just more familiar with using it. One of these days I'll spend some time coming up to speed on WKO+, which is clearly more comprehensive from a capabilities standpoint. Right now, what I do is just easier, for me, on the website. Plus, I like being able to see my data anywhere I'm on the web. Then there is a smart phone app for the web service that lets me look at a planned workout on the go. It's worth noting I also link the web service to my iPhone calendar, so I can see the workouts there, alongside my other commitments. That helps me plan my day; deciding whether to to do the workout as part of my commute, before work, or after work.

Do you upload using the Device Agent applet? Are your versions of everything up-to-date? I haven't had an upload issue in a long time; definitely not since I went to the Mac.

Esteban58

I've seen the same problems both with and without Device Agent... Everything is current (except I'm often running it on an XP system, I'll try it on win-7 to see if that makes any difference).

Since it has a 14 day free trial (PC), I'll give WKO a try.

Being a professional software type, learning a new app isn't a challenge, getting frustrated at poorly working software is though .

sarals 

Yes, I have it...I haven't really gotten used to it.

shovelhd

Understandable. The first thing you need to do is translate what Golden Cheetah tells you versus what Allan and Coggan, and your coach, refer to. They are not directly, and also, not exactly, the same. But at a high level, they are close enough for understanding.

Bikescore = TSS (Training Set Score). This is a calculated "value" of your workout. How hard you went, on average. 100 TSS ~= FTP for one hour. An easy workout is under 100, a hard one is over 200, and anything over 100/hr is difficult. Bikescore is on the summary page. Also of value on the summary page are the lap splits and lap power when you hit the lap button. Also, overall average power and xPower, which is roughly Normalized Power. NP is not the numerical average, it is an approximation of what your average power would be if you rode the entire time at the same exact power output.

On the Performance Manager (PM) tab:

Green line = CTL (Chronic Training Load). This is the long term stress reported as a number. It is based on a roughly 42 day average. The ability to handle a large CTL is an approximation of how fit you are.

Blue line = ATL (Acute Training Load). This is a representation of your short term training load, roughly a 7 day average. It is an approximation of hard you have been going lately, and why you may feel tired.

Black line = TSB (Training Stress Balance). This is an approximation of the balance you are achieving between training load and rest. A positive number is a low load, a negative number is a high load. If you are an idiot like me, at some point you will run a high (negative) TSB for a long period of time, and it will eventually grind you down to a nub. Then you will get "yelled at", and be on forced rest and recovery. To me, this is one of the most important metrics to watch. I need help paying attention to it.

Also of value is the Critical Power page, which tracks your current workout (black line) next to your bests across the power range against time. For example, your best 5 second power, 10 second, etc. versus what you just did. I find this helpful after races.

Hope this helps.

sarals 

Shovel, it does. Tell me, do you find it accurate?

shovelhd

Well, my coach may have slightly different numbers than what I see, but they are very close. Close enough so that I can understand what he is trying to do, when, and why, and how this should be affecting me. Before I had a coach, I had to figure all of this out on my own. Now we do this collaboratively. I find it has worked very well when you can speak to your coach in the same language, with some common understanding of the subject. I can throw my numbers at him, we will compare and discuss, and then plan going forward.

Esteban58

Is Golden Cheetah useful if you're doing HR based training?

shovelhd

Sure. There is a concept called TRIMP, which is based on HR. I have never used it with HR only, but it is designed for it.

Esteban58

I'll check it out - thanks.

Racer Ex 

I'm not sure if GC has the charting capabilities of WKO. I end up developing a lot of my own charts and graphs...I can do individual races for comparison, year to year training for certain periods, builds to specific races...huge amount of flexibility.

WKO also gives you multi-file analysis, where you can over lay files. It's very helpful for TT's where you ride the same course; I was looking at two New Year's TT's a year apart today and picked up on some fairly interesting differences.

I'm glad that GC is out there...competition is good.

-----

Today was a big fail. Did 3 hours low tempo yesterday and tried to go out and do some CP30/CP12 climbing intervals today. Legs just weren't there. Bagged it after the second try. I have some tightness and knee issues yesterday so I did a major roll/stretch session last night. May have pounded out the power with the knots.

revchuck 

Since I'm off the bike, my coach prescribed some gym workouts for me. Forward and reverse box jumps, situps and back extensions on the Swiss ball, lunges with dumbbells, Stairclimber for warmup and elliptical for cooldown. I couldn't balance on that ball for situps for the life of me. The backs of my thighs are not happy...I may have extended my feet out too far on the lunges.

I hope the afternoon of the 11th is good weather - can't wait to get back on the bike!

Allegheny Jet

I'm glad that someone else here is in training for the circus. My coach has devised a some new punishments for me using the Bosu ball, stability balls, medicine balls and the chin up bar.

Hermes

A'Jet, I have a new chin up for you. One of the trainers at the gym, 20 something, did a chin up and continued above the bar until he supported his weight with his arms straight. He then lowered himself in a fluid motion and did another 9 reps in a row and they were perfect form. He finished and looked like it was no big deal. He walked over and met one of his clients for a training session. He has to be a gymnast.

Hermes

Leg workout at the gym and then one hour on the trainer.

Esteban58

Ow.

Cleave

OK, so WKO+ is more "refined" than Golden Cheetah but is costs $$. Just what I need, another application to gather data. I've been happily using SportTracks since 2006 but I don't know if I can get plugins that adequately analyze power. I'm already uploading files to Garmin Connect, Strava, Garmin Training Center, and SportTracks. I was using Garmin Connect as a way to have access to data via the "cloud." Friends talked me into using Strava and I pretty much just upload data so that my "followers" can see what I'm doing. Garmin Training Center was my data backup and SportTracks has been my main training diary and training analysis tool.

If I get WKO+ I guess I'll stop using Garmin Connect and Garmin Training Center.

I tried doing a chin up/pull up the other day using my youngest son's bar. I couldn't do one. My son was incredulous. He said, "Mom can do five!"

I guess I have some work to do, or not.

shovelhd

I never used Garmin Training Center. I swapped Garmin Connect for Strava. The only reason I do this at all is to stay in touch with people I don't race with. I could care less about KOMs and leaderboards. For everything else, I use Golden Cheetah. WKO+ or TP would be fine as well. You really only need one analysis software platform.

Simplify your life.

Allegheny Jet

Not even gonna try that! My son described his Cross Fit instructor can do a pull like that. Just happens the guy was WC a few years ago right before the TV driven prizes. He did use his winnings to open the Cross Fit.

AzTallRider

"Combo-plate" workouts the last couple of days that included some pretty hard efforts... rest period starts today, so no group ride this weekend. 1.5 hour rides Sat and Sun, without too much intensity: just a few sprints and such.

Had my second ever stand-up-and-fall-over event last night, in the same place the first one happened. I make it to the doorway out of the family room, and then the world starts closing in. I get light-headed frequently, but when the vision really narrows and the buzzing starts, I now know to get low. I was crouching over, thinking I was okay, but then ended up on my butt with a shattered (empty) wine glass beside me. TallWife was sitting nearby, and saw it out of the corner of her eye:

TallWife: You need to eat more. You eat less than a bird! And you owe me a wine glass...
AzT: I just had dinner. It's not food related... my workouts open up the blood flow to my legs, so it doesn't get to my brain.
TallWife: And you somehow think that's "normal"?!?
AzT: No, I'm not normal, but it's an accepted part of training. I just need to tense my upper body before standing up, and all is well.
TallWife: So why don't you do that?!?! You forget something that easy?
AzT: Well, um... yes. How can I remember, when the blood isn't getting to my brain until I do it??

Just happened to have an annual cardiologist appointment this morning. He did a mess of tests the first time it happened, but is now unconcerned, so long as everything else looks good.

Cleave

AzTR, I must not be training right because that has never happened to me. I know a lot of people talk about getting dizzy when the stand up but I can only think of one time for me when I was sick. Please be careful regarding the symptoms and the cause.

Cleave

Same intervals as for the past two Thursdays (Z1 1 min, Z2 1 min, Z3 2 min X 6 reps per set X 2 sets). These are some of my least favorite intervals and the group I was in was going 28-29 MPH during Z3. Both times I was behind small women so I was getting more workout than normal. Good thing I upped the gearing to 50 X 15. This combined with 120 relatively easy miles for Monday and Tuesday combined have me feeling pretty tired today.