scyclops

I'm not fond of backing down when confronted by someone who is clearly lacking the proper authority to do so, but if faced with multiple persons armed with chainsaws I'd probably make an exception (unless... nope, better not go there again).

UberGeek

Could be. But, given the environment there, I'm thinking just "off". There's another guy who walks sideways EVERYWHERE.

It's kinda interesting to sit on Main St. in Downtown Buffalo from 5:30AM until about 8AM or so

sknhgy 

Sorry. I didn't mean to sound harsh. It's just that sometimes people do damage to trails and they don't realize it. But if there is enough mud to get stuck to a bike then it is affecting the trail. But maybe on this trail it doesn't matter. Who knows? I didn't see it.

Tundra_Man 

I have no real comment other than I'm enjoying the amusing imagry in my mind of the girl singing, "Poor mother earth!..." as the dudes with her fire up a chain saw.

Rafy

yeah !,me too. I imagine her singing "ohh noo look at yourrrr tiiires..." " whyyyyy you're heeere..."

pretty funny story

jsharr

Excerpt from OP "It became obvious really quick that this chick was a crazy hippy type. She had on some white linen pants , a t-shirt with bare feet and had a crazy look in her eye. She started talking to me, but instead of talking she was kind of like singing...

reading comprehension fail works both ways, does it not?

larwyn

Sounds like she was part of a crew that maintains the trail. I am not at all surprised that she would take exception to someone who was obviously making ruts as evidenced of the dirt which was removed still clinging to the tires. I'm not so sure that a damaged bike trail is good reason to ride on a trail which is designated for hikers only. When hiking, I generally choose trails which exclude bikes, but when one comes along anyway they generally claim the trial for themselves, expecting me to jump out of their way and let them pass as they scare away all the wildlife in the area and spoil my mood for at least a few seconds (I really need to stop allowing that). Of course if a ranger stops them they simply "did not notice that they got off of the bike trail". It's kind of like walking across a freshly mopped floor before it dries at home, you know you are in the wrong and you are likely to get yelled at.

I've known lots of hippies in my day but cannot recall one who actually communicates by singing. Sounds like she may have been trying to sound "cheerful" while actually wanting to rip your head off and crush it under her bare feet. It was your disregard for the rules that put you in that situation, not her linen pants, t-shirt and bare feet. Maintenance of the trail was her responsibility, informing someone that they are damaging the trail and attempting to stop them from doing so goes right along with that responsibility.

Seems to me it would be easy enough to show a bit of respect for those who are helping provide you with the trail by at least pretending to appreciate what they are doing and just take the most direct path off of the restricted trail. At least until you are out of their sight. It would be even better to do your part by not damaging the trials and following the rules. If the bike trail comes to a dead end, you could ride back out, or walk/carry the bike to the next section of bike trail. Maybe the city would be open to volunteer work to help repair the washed out bridge? Otherwise they may have to wait until the singing hippie and crew get to that point on their task list.

stonefree

The hippie species became extinct about 40 years ago. The remaining survivors were transformed into yuppies.

I thought everyone knew that.

electrik

Only if you're reading posts out of order?

Anyways, feet or boots - both will disturb Gaia.

sunstorm

yep, I meet crazy folks that ride on hiking trails then whine about bridge being out to city counsels rather than organizing bikers for trail maintenance and repair and heading to the city counsel with a proposal to improve the resource they are using then belly-aching about others who maintain trails. Maybe that is why we don't seem to have this problem and do have chains blocking trails when they are closed....there is a lot of positive pressure on bikers who use the trails to actually contribute to work days, which tend to happen every other week, and to stay off hiking only trails to avoid having the entire park shut down to mountain bikes. If you have to do the repairs rather than just whining (about folks doing repairs, about bridges being out, about trails only being for hikers,...seeing a pattern) and had folks using trails not meant for automobiles to go joy riding (remember, your maintaining them, not the joy riders) you might think they were a tiny bit crazy and frustrating. She probably handled it poorly, but you aren't exactly a role model of handling things well either....at least she is contributing some action to improving things..... somehow I highly doubt this whining improves the trails, repairs the bridge, or changes her commentary.

danlikes

When you go to the council meeting you be sure and pick up your riders card, you know the one that says the rules do not apply to you. Hippie chick straiten you out, that is like way cool...in melody now "Crazy hippie lady handed you your…"

Sorry could not resist, but serously if the trail is a dead end then double back or walk or carry the bike out. I see where alot of places are going wheel free, not sure that I agree with it but such is life.

electrik

Well, i heartly disagree. This OP could have decked the old bag as soon as she started grabbing onto him and his property. So kudos for being the person who was staying calm. You know just because he wasn't building a bridge or doing maintenance that afternoon doesn't make his a criminal. Nor does cutting downed trees up exonerate her attitude in anyway. Further, around here, hikers through sheer numbers(if the sierra club is to believed) are BY FAR the least contributing collection of users and around here. It's the cycling crews that are often coming out in force to local trail building days. It seems all the dying out hiking clubs do is whine about everybody else. I can see why nobody want's to end up admitting to being a twigs and berry type because it's becoming more and more fundamentalist and radical to be associated with any hiking group. That is too bad because getting people out in the woods and not scaring them off with the Gaia talk and crying because there are tire tracks and mud allover would make things better.

One more thing, maybe they should just install a crushed limestone pathway so this hippy can driver her 4x4 further into the sacred forest where disturbing a bit of mud is a crime. Can you see the irony?

dminor 

Fixed

larwyn

Irony? I do not recall anyone mentioning mud on the tires of the 4x4, or even mud on the bare feet of the singing hippie chick/old bag. The "old bag" stated that they had a permit to be there, while the bicyclist admitted to having no authorization to be where he was on a bicycle. The bicyclist clearly showed a lack of respect for the workers, the rules, and even the future privileges of other bicyclists. No matter how entitled he may feel, most city councils are not composed of bicyclists, while many do include an "old bag" or two.

I cannot think of a situation where it would be okay for a male of any age to deck an "old bag", even if she was a singing hippie and standing in his way and touching his bicycle. Lack of respect is one thing, lack of honor is about the extent of lowliness.

I stand by my original statement. If he had not been breaking the rules, the confrontation would never have taken place. Plain and simple.

electrik

Ok, i will spell it out. It is ironic because they've put a crushed limestone path over the very same forest floor to drive their stinky 4x4 over mother earth and here they are acting like nut jubs over some muddy bicycle tires. Now they're going to fire up their gas chainsaws and starting cutting the crap out of the forest. Damn hypocrites.

This woman is not an officer of the law and taking hold of a person's property or their person is not acceptable. The perfectly legal response when some weird stranger walks up to me and starts grabbing, shouting and sounds high as a kite is to fight them off. This man felt threatened and that the woman may have had a knife and that her friend would most certainly mob him if she furthered an attack or he tried to fight her off. Maybe you think it's ungentlemanly, because she was a woman and they don't pose threats, but that is your chauvinist prerogative and shows you really have no clue how a dumb ***** will act to deliberately provoke a fight.

Lastly this woman clearly showed lack of respect for the people she claims to be helping and that crew should have their trail pass revoked before more physical confrontations take place.

z90

Wow. Considering we've only heard one side of the story, and even that tells us that the OP was riding on a closed trail, there seems to be an awful lot of animosity towards this woman. Even if you take everything the OP said at face value, the worst thing she did is put her hands on his handlebars to stop him from doing something he shouldn't have been doing in the first place. Why would you try to continue riding down the closed trail after someone told you it was closed anyway? So she had a sing-song voice and bare feet, and she was a "hippie". A closed trail is a closed trail.
Why not just say, "sorry, my bad" and walk out?

z90

So, she told the trail was closed (which you apparently already knew), but you tried to go around her anyway. She stopped you, then you went a little further down, and got back on the trail anyway.

electrik

The animosity towards this woman particular aggression comes from all sorts of confrontations with snobby and whiny environmentalist hikers that all mountain bikers have to eventually unjustly deal with. Anything that is a "machine" is bad in those peoples eyes and that attitude has nothing todo with conservation, but hypocritical new age Luddite hippy horse **** that has no place on the trail.

Probably the best way was to leave. Yes. Even though it is letting the person who is behaving aggressively and offensively feel they've won. It's not worth risking a confrontation with a crazy. There is for sure no need for an apology.

The apparent harmless nature of the encounter is going to be informed by your past experiences. There was a lot of potential for it to go wrong when you physically detain and start a physical confrontation. It is possible this woman was really an airhead who has no sense of that, but it is the first step down the wrong road if you ask me and there were so many ways it could go wrong at that point. So kudos to the OP.

larwyn

It's my understanding that the crushed limestone path is the MUP in the same area as the hiking and biking trails. That does not mean that all the trails are open to whoever wishes to use them or that the MUP is open to all 4x4's and hippies with chainsaws (only those with permits). Motor vehicles, power equipment and laborers are among the things necessary to keep the trails open to the public. This is the first post that I have seen mentioning the odor of the 4x4.

Nobody was there to "cut the crap out of the forest", they were there to cut up and remove fallen trees, not to fell them.

It does not take an officer of the law to inform someone that they are breaking the rules of the trail. Anyone legally using that trail had every right to demand that the bicyclist not ride on that trail.

I do not believe that you would come out all that well if you were to deck someone for touching your handlebars as you attempted to ride off along your merry way after being informed that that you were on a restricted trail. Regardless of who that person might be.

I really don't understand this one; "that is your chauvinist prerogative". Did you mean chivalric instead? It makes no sense to me as written.

The lady showed no disrespect for the people she was there to help, even informing the OP that he was on a restricted trail was completely in line with helping maintain a useable system of trails for both hikers and bicyclists. She tried to help him not break the rules, she was apparently unsuccessful in doing so as the ungrateful OP got right back on the restricted trail at the first opportunity.

It is that small group of bicyclists who feel that everyone and everything should get out of their way and let them ride that is making things more difficult for everyone else. We are not amused.

Zephyr11

When I was in college, some of my friends and I were on a trail that we knew we weren't allowed to be on. Went fine for a few miles, and then out of nowhere, we start hearing gunshots. We figure there's a hunter who's also on the land illegally. Wrong. This guy comes down the trail on a quad, firing a gun in the air and screaming at us to "Get the f*** off his land or he'll blast our f***ing heads off!" Needless to say, we got out of there as fast as we could. We had some good stories afterward, but never went back to that particular trail (though I won't pretend it didn't keep us off other trails we weren't allowed to be on).

Has pretty much everyone been on land they're not supposed to be on? Yes. Did the guy my friends and I met and the woman the OP encountered overreact? Yes. But you know who was in the wrong here? The people who were on the trail illegally in the first place: me, my friends, and the OP. The right thing to do here is to apologize and leave. You were wrong by being on a trail you weren't supposed to be on, so apologize and then get out of there. Anything else is just making mountain bikers look bad.

I'd also venture a guess that the description of the hippie is exaggerated a bit, because we all tend to make people who piss us off look dumber and weirder than they really are for the sake of the story. And if it's not exaggerated, she wouldn't be the first person to be doing trail maintenance while stoned.

electrik

So, now you understand the irony of complaining about mud kicked up by bicycle tire when you tear down a road and drive your suv right up. There are ATV, if you need that, to carry chainsaws. Dakine also makes a trailbuilder backpack that has a specific slot for a small chainsaw. Why doesn't the forest fairy use those?
Aka cut the crap outta the forest. Downed trees should be left in place not chainsawed up, particular if you're one to complain about mud being disturbed.
Sure, but i said it takes an officer of the law to do what this woman took it upon herself todo - physically confront.
I might deck somebody if i thought they were going to have at me and grabbing my bicycle and thereby restraining me is PLENTY of cause. Your attitude is also chauvinist, not chivalric, because you've assume just because she is a woman that she is harmless.
It's disrespect because of her lack of respect for other users by accosting them. Her "helping" him to not break the rules should have ONLY been a word that the trail is closed - which isn't what happened. She helped NOBODY as evidenced herein.
Wrong. Anybody who has spent time in any land use hearing will know that hiking groups are the first to try and get every other use banned. Cyclists do not engage in this exclusive behavior to the extend i've witness hiking groups.

scyclops

z90

So, Electrik, in your opinion, was the OP right to be riding on closed trails?
Was it ok for him to attempt to go around the women who was standing in his way, blocking the closed trail?
Was he right to get back on the closed trail after the incident?

larwyn

It's simple, follow the rules of the trails which you use. Do not attempt to run over singing hippie chicks/old bags or anyone else with your bicycle in order to continue down your chosen unauthorized path. And never think that mountain bicyclists will outnumber hikers. It just might be a good idea to figure out a way to get along with them rather than whine about them stealing "your trails". Hiking trails do not require a fraction of the preparation/maintenance of biking trails so there will always be more of them and the fact that any particular hiking trail might make an excellent bicycle trail does not necessarily mean that it should automatically be required that bikers be allowed. Many hundreds of more people can afford to go out and buy a pair of hiking boots and a stick than will ever wish to own a mountain bike. Hikers will always hold the numbers, mountain bicyclists will need more than obstinate arrogance to win their way.

electrik

Nobody was running over anybody and the rules are based on common ****ing sense.

We all know a certain collection of hikers like to keep their trail exclusive and pretend they have the support of every other hiker out there to exclude cyclists or horses. There is no extra extravagant "preparation" work necessary. Really that is a red herring sierra club types like to throw out there because bicycle tires don't ruin or impact trails anymore than hiking boots. So get outta here you lousy sierra club troll this isn't a forum for you to complain about havbing to share trails - it's a forum to complain about a psycho sierra club hippy doped up on LSD so wacked out of her environmentalist skull that she can't handle a guy riding a bicycle when it's wet outside and acts like he was hauling ass through there on a Quad.

Probably it was ok for him to ride the trail as there was no bypass and no actual damage being done.

It was ok for him to go around the crazy confrontational woman.

See answer a)